DUST Search - [Request] Finite ammo in vehicles

Bones1182 wrote:

Iron Wolf Saber wrote:

I wouldnt mind if vehicles have limited ammo stores, provided they had a means of self rearming maybe take away an armor slot (since amarrian tanks WONT have ammo as it eats capacitor instead.)

Turrets I think need to have thier ammo stores built in as well to prevent overexpendature of ammo and make the AI consume no ammo. However if manned turrets would then get a bonus to damage/function if it where to ammoed.

Also there needs to be a mobile nanohive module for LAVs havs and dropships to resupply everyone but themselves

I have heard a few discuccions on amarr tanks and it is quite possible they will funtion much the same as the railgun or blaster and just overheat. As the devs have said nothing about cap yet, at least not to my limited knowledge.

For limited ammo cap does work nicely but since there is no need to actually resupply it may considered OP by some.

A good solution may be to use focusing crystal and have them wear out after X number of shots.

Just my thoughts on laser tanks.

Either way they will be devastaing, to shields anyway.


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Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 16:56:00 - [1] - Quote I would very much like to agree with this. No weapon should have infinite ammo by default. i would agree to having ammo modules for vehicles though. Perhaps low skill requirement modules would just double or triple magazine capacity and high skill requirement modules could instead replace the magazine with an internal nanohive that would generate infinite ammunition for the vehicle. Vehicles would have to be able to replenish ammo from a supply depot by parking near it, just like a player in a dropsuit can restock by standing near one. There could also be a special type of nanohive that could be deployed for vehicles to use, a sort of 'pick up' item that could be dropped and then the vehicle could drive over it to instantly refill ammo stores and the nanohive would be completely consumed by this.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 20:10:00 - [2] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: I have not dove into vehicles yet so please forgive my naivety. I feel tanks should come with some 'militia' type ammo where it is generally weak and plentiful. Players should be able to upgrade their tanks in terms of shields & armor as well as types of turret sizes (larger turrets shoot more expensive and more powerful ammo). Players then purchase "rounds" of ammo to fire from a tank. This would be comparable to ground troops who have to purchase weapons, tank operators have to purchase different types and amounts of ammo. If you knew that you were losing 500/1,000/10,000 ISK every time you fired your turret, I bet you would be more selective. Admittedly, the only thing I haven't quite answered is that a ground trope loses 1 weapon and 1 drop suit when they die, for a player with a tank, if they follow the above system, when killed, would they lose the tank and all ammo "stocked" in it? I dislike the thought of having to purchase individual rounds for anything in Dust. In EVE it's always been that way and it makes a sort of sense. But in Dust it would just mean annoying and needless micromanagement. 'How much ammo should I risk putting in this fit?' 'How will using a better ammo effect my performance?' These are things that shouldn't really be considered in a FPS game. I like the idea of finite ammo and modules that increase capacity or provide an unlimited supply, but the type of ammo shouldn't be a concern nor should how much of it you have onboard in the case of a loss. You're already losing the vehicle and all the modules and weapons equipped on it, and if you're unlucky enough to not eject before the vehicle's destruction you lose your dropsuit and all the modules and weapons equipped on that as well, forcing you to lose a store of ammo on top of all that is just too much risk and micromanagement for a FPS. Turret stats are all that should matter, better turrets equal better damage and possibly better magazine capacity or fire rate. We shouldn't have to worry about 'does this ammo work well in this weapon?' or 'how much ammo did I put in that fit?'. Limiting ammo capacity will help curtail wasteful or heedless firing and give the player more of a feeling of every shot being worth something in the sense that they could run out and need to head back for supplies, call a logi for ammo, or get caught with an empty chamber and get wrecked by that militia HAV some newb just called in. That alone will be more than enough to encourage more selective firing, and will provide an interesting game mechanic without making the system overly complicated or annoying to use.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 20:57:00 - [3] - Quote Enervating wrote: Lorebot hit the nail on the head, even if he's argueing against it. Internal nanohives explain it all. ofc a tank can have a module on board that an infantryman can carry. vehicles in almost any game have infinite ammo, at least Dust has an explanation why. Internal nanohives certainly do explain the current infinite ammo model of Dust, but that doesn't make it fun. Besides the more tactical and fun nature of the game if vehicles had limited ammo, or at least had to equip a module to get infinite ammo, it would also explain the differences between a handheld nanohive that a merc can carry into the field and use to slowly resupply from being completely empty or just camp by to keep topped off, and a nanohive built to manufacture the much larger rounds fired by turrets and at the speed that those rounds are consumed by a turret firing non-stop.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.12 20:59:00 - [4] - Quote Maximus Stryker wrote: I agree that purchasing ammo for tanks could be a little bit too deep and bothersome, but as I understood, i thought that was how it worked in EVE and thought it may work in Dust. I see your points. I am against having a nano hive on board permanently in the tank as when i have to deploy a nanohive as a ground trope, it A) cant move again and B) can be destroyed by the opposing side. I think a permanent nano in a tank would be unfair and not much better than what we have now. I don't mind the idea of having a permanent nanohive inside a vehicle as long as it's a module they need to equip. The pilot needs to make a sacrifice in damage output or tank in order to get the infinite ammo, and that's a type of balance I'd like to see.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.13 01:12:00 - [5] - Quote Bones1182 wrote: Iron Wolf Saber wrote: I wouldnt mind if vehicles have limited ammo stores, provided they had a means of self rearming maybe take away an armor slot (since amarrian tanks WONT have ammo as it eats capacitor instead.) Turrets I think need to have thier ammo stores built in as well to prevent overexpendature of ammo and make the AI consume no ammo. However if manned turrets would then get a bonus to damage/function if it where to ammoed. Also there needs to be a mobile nanohive module for LAVs havs and dropships to resupply everyone but themselves I have heard a few discuccions on amarr tanks and it is quite possible they will funtion much the same as the railgun or blaster and just overheat. As the devs have said nothing about cap yet, at least not to my limited knowledge. For limited ammo cap does work nicely but since there is no need to actually resupply it may considered OP by some. A good solution may be to use focusing crystal and have them wear out after X number of shots. Just my thoughts on laser tanks. Either way they will be devastaing, to shields anyway. CCP has confirmed that there are NOT going to be different damage types in Dust. Everyone does the same type of damage and no one does bonus damage to shields or armor. 1 type of damage, 1 type of resist. As for Lasers, I've assumed that instead of overheat mechanics they'd be applying a Cap meter, basically just the heat meter in reverse. You start at 100% and as you fire it drops, if you hit 0% you're forced to wait for it to recharge to 90% or so before you can continue firing. Ammo for lasers is something I'd actually let them have a pass on. Lasers shouldn't need to reload or have a finite ammo store, but they need to be the weakest of all weapons if that's the case. This doesn't mean they'd be overlooked by everyone, I'd guess that an Amarr vehicle would get bonuses to Laser damage or cap use to bring them in line with other weapons, but putting them on a vehicle that doesn't have bonuses for lasers would be done only if you were seriously concerned that Ammo was going to be an issue. Personally I've wondered how they're going to implement Lasers in the game. My best guess is that they won't deal instant damage to a target, but instead will do increased damage the longer you hold them on the target. So just spraying over a target won't do much damage, but being accurate and steady with your aim will quickly increase the dps you're doing to the target as long as you are hitting them. Not awesome for killing small fast moving targets, but they'd be great against Heavies or slow moving vehicles. As for Sin3 DeusNomine's argument, I believe you're overreacting to what we're asking for and overestimating the cost of vehicles in the game. A Sagaris, the most expensive vehicle currently available, is only 65,000isk, to completely fit one in the most advanced and expensive gear currently available you probably won't even reach a 200k isk price tag. Currently a Sagaris with a Large Missile Turret can spam an endless barrage of missiles for an entire match, never overheating, never slowing down, never caring about having wasted shots. Just fire at anything you think is a target and who cares if you miss. This is not only unrealistic, it's also incredibly overpowered. What we're asking for is that Turrets have a finite ammo capacity at any given moment. That when you're down to your last 10 rounds of Large Missile Turret ammo you may stop firing and think about moving yourself off the front lines to restock on ammo IF you don't have a Logi somewhere nearby willing to feed you more OR you haven't equipped a module to provide you with unlimited ammo. We're not asking that turrets be neutered, give a small blaster turret 2000 rounds of ammo, give a Large Missile Turret 150 rounds in the magazine, but limit it to some extent so the pilot CARES about what they're shooting instead of just mindlessly spamming the fire button at anything they think is a target. We want a pilot to have to care about whether they're fitting for max tank, max damage, or max longevity. We want to stop the habit of just throwing on all the tank they can and ignoring damage mods or ammo capacity mods because dps doesn't matter when you have infinite ammo and can survive anything without any assistance from your team at all.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.13 01:39:00 - [6] - Quote I've love to see regular Lasers function as I described above, emitting a beam of death as long as you hold the trigger and the longer you las a target the more damage they take from the beam. Its limiting factor would be the amount of time you're able to keep the beam active. For vehicles this would simply be the Cap meter I described, for Laser Rifles it would be running out of charge in the cell. I'd very much like to see Pulse Lasers in the game as well. They could function more like traditional weapons, short bursts of damage. This would make sense for the Scrambler Pistol to be a Pulse Laser weapon, and for Pulse Laser rifles and turrets to function similarly. In EVE the Laser effects closely represent what I described above. The Beam fires, it stays on for a few moments, then powers down and cools off/recharges for the next volley. I would very much like to see this functionality be accurately represented in Dust.
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.13 01:41:00 - [7] - Quote ^^^^ Perhaps this should be a new thread about suggestions and requests for Laser and Pulse Laser functionality XD
Lorebot Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic 39	Posted - 2012.07.13 02:00:00 - [8] - Quote TabbieKat wrote: Why not like infantry they have a set number of ammo. like a Large missile turret comes with 100 rounds while each small missile turret comes with 50 each. Then have a module that is either passive or activated to replenish ammo. The tanks would still have the near unlimited ammo but they would have to wait for it to replenish. I like the idea of an active ability module that regens ammo a lot more than I like the idea of a module that provides a passive infinite supply of ammo. They provide the same function and restrictions, but one requires player input and awareness, the other does not. Players actually having to do things is almost always better than players not having to do things :) As for the ammo magazine limits, I'd probably figure them out for a specific time period of sustained fire. So a slow firing weapon would have a much smaller magazine than a weapon that fires quickly. So a Large Missile Turret, which fires pretty slowly, could have a 100-200 round magazine while a Small Missile turret, which fires faster than the Large version, could have a 300-500 round magazine. Either way you have about 5 minutes of sustained fire before you need to resupply, either from a supply depot, logi support, or the active module. Each turret would need to have its own ammo magazine, so a dropship with 2 Small Blaster Turrets wouldn't share a 4000 round magazine, but would have two 2000 round magazines, each exclusively for one of the Turrets.