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Project Nova Proposal: Competitive Bounty Hunting

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Maken Tosch DUST University 13768	Posted - 2017.05.25 02:54:00 - [1] - Quote https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YD-SpokavTsbzDiE4Lzluii-ZQYLliLkKG3DAJT7h_E/edit?usp=sharing It took me a while to put this together. It might need some refining which is why I'm posting this here. Obviously it's not going to be priority for a while but it's a good way to keep us busy and it's based off of what we currently know from CCP Rattati in regards to consumables and dropsuits. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DiGreatDestroyer Grupo de Asalto Chacal 364	Posted - 2017.05.27 22:43:00 - [2] - Quote Interesting. If the trap as you described it is not doable, then let it be a special type of grenade. If you kill the target x times with it, you boot him from the match and you get the bounty. Or, a more complicated mechanic would be: Since the maps will be small and closed, I assume the redline will be gone right? Let's not waste the mechanic. Make a grenade that makes a solid forcefield you cant escape from nor shot from, and the inside of the forcefield is a red line. When the timer (10 secs) runs out, you get kicked from the match. The only way to deactivate the forcefield is to kill the one who threw it. Only someone using a hunter slot can deploy with that equipment. Maybe make a hunter drop suit with that preset grenade in the grenade slot, which cannot be changed. Make the dropsuit have a unique design or color scheme, so everyone knows you are a hunter. Player count wise, I wouldnt put too much pressure on the dev team. 16v16 matches with 2 slots for hunters seems ok to me. Solid proposal, good work o7 #KeepDustInThePS3
Maken Tosch DUST University 13771	Posted - 2017.05.27 23:47:00 - [3] - Quote I like the grenade/redline idea as a alternative in case the trap mechanic I suggested isn't doable for any reason (code or otherwise). Keep the ideas coming. As for player count, 2 should be fine. I only suggested 3 as an idea in case 1 or 2 hunters can't fight their way towards the target due the defenders/attackers defending the target and they have to work together. This is where trust comes in. Since only one hunter can legally claim the prize, one hunter only has the word of the other that the spoils will be shared after the match. Any more than 3 hunters in one match will obviously require a much bigger map which means we'll likely not see that happen for years because Project Nova is looking to start off with only smaller maps. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1496	Posted - 2017.05.28 05:49:00 - [4] - Quote I'm not sure if you thought about it, but what bounties were used allow side of a reporting system. Players can report other players for cheating or other violations and place a bounty on them (if they choose to.) Keep getting bounties placed on you and it starts to reduce your rewards by a percentage. The violator can either pay off the total bounty in ISK or players can claim a percentage of the bounty by killing the player.
Maken Tosch DUST University 13771	Posted - 2017.05.28 23:18:00 - [5] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: I'm not sure if you thought about it, but what bounties were used allow side of a reporting system. Players can report other players for cheating or other violations and place a bounty on them (if they choose to.) Keep getting bounties placed on you and it starts to reduce your rewards by a percentage. The violator can either pay off the total bounty in ISK or players can claim a percentage of the bounty by killing the player. I don't want to mix those two together. I want to keep them separate. Reporting someone for cheating is completely different from that of putting a bounty on someone who **** you over in ways that are not related to cheating. When someone cheats, they are violating the established rules of the game such as using a bot or manipulating the data being sent between CCP's servers and that of the client to try to gain an unfair advantage over another player who can't have that advantage by following the rules. The biggest problem with mixing up bounty hunting with that of reporting players for cheating (as you suggested) is that it creates an unnecessary stigma among players who have bounties. As an example, let's say I was never cheating but I pissed off a fellow player by badmouthing their corporation telling them that his or her corp is full of nothing but pussies who claim they are badass at corp battles but chicken out at the first sign of pressure. The next day Concord notifies me that I have a 3 Billion ISK bounty on my head and that in 24 hours I will be open season to every hunter in the god damn cluster. But I wouldn't be worried about that as that means I got under their skin soooooo much that I am worth that much to send someone after little old me. But what I would be worried about is the stigma of being considered a cheater somehow. I never cheated but then the forums will start lighting up like a Christmas Tree in Time Square with everyone saying "HOLY **, MAKEN TOSCH GOT A 3 BILLION ISK BOUNTY ON HIS ASS! HE MUST BE THE BIGGEST CHEATER!" Yeah, I wouldn't want that. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DeadlyAztec11 10193	Posted - 2017.05.29 07:28:00 - [6] - Quote You know what would be cool? A launcher that shoots a projectile that immobilizes the target. Then the hunter has to stand next to them and hold down a button until they succeed. During this time either the hunter or prey could be killed and the hunter would fail and have to try again. Friendlies could also release the prey from the trap and other hunters could claim the target even if a different hunter trapped them with the projectile. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1496	Posted - 2017.05.29 11:33:00 - [7] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: DeathwindRising wrote: I'm not sure if you thought about it, but what bounties were used allow side of a reporting system. Players can report other players for cheating or other violations and place a bounty on them (if they choose to.) Keep getting bounties placed on you and it starts to reduce your rewards by a percentage. The violator can either pay off the total bounty in ISK or players can claim a percentage of the bounty by killing the player. I don't want to mix those two together. I want to keep them separate. Reporting someone for cheating is completely different from that of putting a bounty on someone who **** you over in ways that are not related to cheating. When someone cheats, they are violating the established rules of the game such as using a bot or manipulating the data being sent between CCP's servers and that of the client to try to gain an unfair advantage over another player who can't have that advantage by following the rules. The biggest problem with mixing up bounty hunting with that of reporting players for cheating (as you suggested) is that it creates an unnecessary stigma among players who have bounties. As an example, let's say I was never cheating but I pissed off a fellow player by badmouthing their corporation telling them that his or her corp is full of nothing but pussies who claim they are badass at corp battles but chicken out at the first sign of pressure. The next day Concord notifies me that I have a 3 Billion ISK bounty on my head and that in 24 hours I will be open season to every hunter in the god damn cluster. But I wouldn't be worried about that as that means I got under their skin soooooo much that I am worth that much to send someone after little old me. But what I would be worried about is the stigma of being considered a cheater somehow. I never cheated but then the forums will start lighting up like a Christmas Tree in Time Square with everyone saying "HOLY **, MAKEN TOSCH GOT A 3 BILLION ISK BOUNTY ON HIS ASS! HE MUST BE THE BIGGEST CHEATER!" Yeah, I wouldn't want that. what I think should happen, is that for players that violate whatever CCP defines as an actionable offense, that it be publicly known in game. I understand what you mean by using bounties as a personal point of pride, and I can see that as cool feature. But knowing who's a cheater is useful too, whether its shown through personal security status rating or something else. Maybe your secuirty rating decreases when you get reported, which can effect your ability to get insurance in-game. Less and less insurance as you decrease in security status. The point is this though, that people that are publicly branded as cheaters will soon find themselves in situations were they get avoided by other players, maybe undesirable by player corps, players unwilling to trade with them. create a way for those players to gain back their honor and dignity somehow, but that stigma is greater than simply banning someone.
DUST Fiend 19245	Posted - 2017.05.29 12:47:00 - [8] - Quote EVE: Pokemon Edition Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Dreis Shadowweaver RIP DUST 514 9778	Posted - 2017.05.29 21:52:00 - [9] - Quote Interesting, although I worry that it would become such a big feature of corp battles that they become ruined. Plus, what do people actually lose from being captured? Time playing the game, just making the game less fun for the captured and the bounty hunters being more of a nuisance than the content they add. I doubt the ISK loss will be anything meaningful because if Nova is anything like DUST the most expensive suits still won't cost much. It's not like in EVE where you can fly ships worth billions and billions of ISK. The problem with the capture mechanic is that it just begs to be exploited. If I were a CEO I would put bounties on every single member of the corp I'm fighting, and they'd probably do the same to me. Due to the sheer number of people who have bounties on them (and the likely huge number of bounty hunters in the game because it would be easier to be a bounty hunter than fight bounty hunters) it's very likely bounty hunters would show up. Then the corp battle just becomes a contest of whose bounty hunters are the best at removing the other players from the game. It doesn't sound fun at all. Why would someone even put a bounty on someone else? The minimum ISK (5-10 mil you said) you put on the bounty is likely to be more than their suit could possibly be worth. It' a net loss to whoever sets up the bounty. The only reason why someone would put bounties on people is to exploit it in the way described above. Bounties at least have some (small) place in EVE because EVE isn't a lobby game. Nova is meant to be 16v16. This limit is to encourage straight-up fighting of skill to win, compared to EVE where there is much more leniency in how you win (you're allowed to bring as many people as you can. This bounty system undermines what Nova is seeking to achieve. This bounty system might work in EVE (and would probably be an improvement to the current system) but in a lobby shooter I don't think it is a good idea. Tomoko is mai waifu
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 00:05:00 - [10] - Quote Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote: Interesting, although I worry that it would become such a big feature of corp battles that they become ruined. Plus, what do people actually lose from being captured? Time playing the game, just making the game less fun for the captured and the bounty hunters being more of a nuisance than the content they add. I doubt the ISK loss will be anything meaningful because if Nova is anything like DUST the most expensive suits still won't cost much. It's not like in EVE where you can fly ships worth billions and billions of ISK. The problem with the capture mechanic is that it just begs to be exploited. If I were a CEO I would put bounties on every single member of the corp I'm fighting, and they'd probably do the same to me. Due to the sheer number of people who have bounties on them (and the likely huge number of bounty hunters in the game because it would be easier to be a bounty hunter than fight bounty hunters) it's very likely bounty hunters would show up. Then the corp battle just becomes a contest of whose bounty hunters are the best at removing the other players from the game. It doesn't sound fun at all. Why would someone even put a bounty on someone else? The minimum ISK (5-10 mil you said) you put on the bounty is likely to be more than their suit could possibly be worth. It' a net loss to whoever sets up the bounty. The only reason why someone would put bounties on people is to exploit it in the way described above. Bounties at least have some (small) place in EVE because EVE isn't a lobby game. Nova is meant to be 16v16. This limit is to encourage straight-up fighting of skill to win, compared to EVE where there is much more leniency in how you win (you're allowed to bring as many people as you can. This bounty system undermines what Nova is seeking to achieve. This bounty system might work in EVE (and would probably be an improvement to the current system) but in a lobby shooter I don't think it is a good idea. How would you then compile a bounty hunting system that is both fun and least exploitable? As for your points: 1. If you read the document in its entirety you would see that the loss is not only time in the match but also the rewards that come with match. If it's a public match, you only get the insurance payout which would likely just cover the basic consumables you used up, but you will not get any of the extra rewards not covered by the insurance such as extra ISK, salvage, and even match points if that ever becomes a thing. 2. As for making the game less fun for the captured, that is the whole point of bounty hunting in general. You do something that warrants getting a bounty on your head and thus you must live with the consequences and deal with it somehow. Wingspan TT mentioned that as well on the YouTube video I linked. 3. As for the ISK loss, it may not be much for a veteran player who already has tens of millions of ISK stashed away, but you will likely not see much of those players in pub matches as they will likely be focused on corp battles where the real ISK comes in. Which brings me to your next point. 4. It's inevitable that players will try to exploit ANYTHING no matter you and I come up with. Of course, bounty hunting in Eve Online is no longer exploitable but it's no longer fun either. If a CEO of a Nova corp places a bunch of bounties on the corp that is entering a corp battle in the hopes of attracting hunters to one side, then we can figure out a way to mitigate that. Not counter it because that's impossible in New Eden but mitigate it. 4-a. One thing we could do is restrict bounty placements at the Concord office to just individual players only and never allow anyone (not even the CEO) to impose a corporation-wide bounty like how it is in Eve Online. If the minimum bounty required were set at 10 million ISK per bounty placement, then that would require the CEO or its members to pay a minimum total of 160 million ISK and that's just for 16 players. Since there is no guarantee which players in that corp are going to join in (unless you have reliable intel) you will have to spend far more than that if you want to cover the entire corp. Let's say there are 100 players (not counting alts) in that corp. That's 1 billion ISK minimum. Even if you focus on just 1/4th of that, 250 million is still a lot of ISK and there is no way of knowing which of those 25 that got the bounty will join the battle assuming those weren't alts. There is one thing I forgot to mention in that document and I will add it later on when I get the chance. Remember what I said about Concord only being the ones that can randomly assign a bounty head to a hunter that personally requests it? Well, what if the pool of available bounties far exceeds the number of available hunters that put in a request? That means that even if you placed a bounty on that target, that target will likely not get assigned to anyone by Concord for a for a long while. Don't forget the possibility that even if they do get assigned those targets, the hunter might decide to re-roll what he or she got from Concord and go for another set of targets. Thus the target will continue to remain unaffected for a while. Again, this is assuming that the bounty pool (which is hidden from the public) is far larger than what the available number of bounty hunters can handle. 5. Even if both corps in a corp battle managed to get hunters into affecting both sides of the same corp battles, it will only be about 6 of them total (3 per side) and only 1 target per side will be affected. 4 of them total if DiGreatDestroyer's suggestion is taken. But as I asked before: how would you then compile a bounty hunting system that is both fun and least exploitable? Also, thank you for pointing out the flaw in the plan for corp battles. I didn't catch that initially. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy

Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 00:25:00 - [11] - Quote PS: If the bounty pool exceeds the available demand from bounty hunters, then it's very likely the bounty hunter will just be by themselves and not have to compete for a specific target while in a match as a neutral. Unfortunately that means the hunter will have to face the entire attacker/defenders teams by themselves. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DUST Fiend 19249	Posted - 2017.05.30 00:55:00 - [12] - Quote "Do something that warrants a bounty on your head" This is why Im strongly against anything that pulls a player out of match. Whats to stop people from bounty griefing noobs, forum goers, or enemy corps? If I randomly got pulled out of an active match Id likely turn the game off and go play something else Rage flavored bitter berry #BUS514
Viktor Hadah Jr 0uter.Heaven 10559	Posted - 2017.05.30 01:34:00 - [13] - Quote might as well rename it "Competitive CEO and FC hunting" because those are the only two targets that will be targeted and not for any material value just for the lols. EVE Trial 250k Bonus SP EVE Chat channel for dust players: Photon Depot
DeadlyAztec11 10195	Posted - 2017.05.30 01:43:00 - [14] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: "Do something that warrants a bounty on your head" This is why Im strongly against anything that pulls a player out of match. Whats to stop people from bounty griefing noobs, forum goers, or enemy corps? If I randomly got pulled out of an active match Id likely turn the game off and go play something else It would be prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of people. There would also most likely be a timer so no one has a permanent bounty on them at all times. Put your flags up in the sky. And wave them side to side. Show the world where you're from. Show the world we are one.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1496	Posted - 2017.05.30 01:47:00 - [15] - Quote What prevents jerk with ISK to burn from trolling new players by putting bounties on them? Because the reason for placing bounties on people are relative, you can not simply define a characteristic worth placing a bounty for. i once asked for 3,000 ISK in eve online... I was given a 3,000 ISK bounty. We're my actions worth whatever negative game impacting effects of having a bounty? In eve online, having a large bounty on you is bad because players can locate and track you down. It means that at any given moment, someone will come to blow up your ship. So you can't really do certain things that would leave you vulnerable to attack. No mission running, no mining, no anything that you could use a fancy ship for. Large bounty can make the game less fun. Or more fun if your expecting to gain more potential fights from people looking to claim a bounty. These mechanics don't translate well into a lobby shooter. If the max players for a match is met, how do bounty hunters get into the match? If the limit is 32 and then +3 for each player with a bounty, how do we support that? If we can support that, why not just invest in larger battles? What prevents people from getting high bounties, then using an alt to claim the bounty and transfer the rewards to the person that had the bounty? You've effectively back rolled the person you intended to make suffer and rewarded them. It wouldn't be too long before people figured that out and stopped putting bounties on people. At this point, players would intentional avoid a feature dev resources and time were spent on to create that could've been used elsewhere, like pve
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 17200	Posted - 2017.05.30 02:23:00 - [16] - Quote I am sure that there are ways that bounties could be different for Nova that would prevent some abuses. Like capping out bounties based upon player level/EXP/value etc. Perhaps these bounties could be limited to certain play modes. I am sure we could come up with enough constraints that could prevent enough abuses to make the system worthwhile. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 02:31:00 - [17] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: "Do something that warrants a bounty on your head" This is why Im strongly against anything that pulls a player out of match. Whats to stop people from bounty griefing noobs, forum goers, or enemy corps? If I randomly got pulled out of an active match Id likely turn the game off and go play something else If the pool of players increases beyond that of the available bounty hunters, even if hunters are given 5 targets each, a lot of those bounties will likely remain unassigned while the available hunters are busy clearing bounties off the others. You wouldn't be randomly pulled out of a match. That depends largely on what you and your teammates do if you find yourself getting chased by a hunter. If your team is coordinating with you, you can fend off the hunters pretty easily until the end of the match. Alternatively, you can choose to willfully allow yourself to be captured and only miss out the remainder of the match you left (along with the rewards). Once that's done, you can continue on playing other matches. Even if someone placed another minimum bounty on you right away, you still have 24 hours before you're put back on the list. During that 24 hour rest period you can continue to rack up ISK and other rewards that you get along the way. As for what I said about "warrants a bounty", that is left up to the players to decide. After all, Eve Online does the same thing. You smack talk in local and you might get a bounty on you. Post a suggestion someone doesn't like the forums? Bam! Bounty on you. There is no criteria to what constitutes as warranting a bounty. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 02:35:00 - [18] - Quote Viktor Hadah Jr wrote: might as well rename it "Competitive CEO and FC hunting" because those are the only two targets that will be targeted and not for any material value just for the lols. I could make a pretty long list of people who would have people hunting them 24/7 the entire year because of the bounty on them until they quit. Those CEOs and FCs could just very well have someone take their place during corp battles. Either that or log into alt accounts that you might not know about and bring them in as ringers from a different corporation. Assuming of course ringers do get allowed to join in on corp battles like they did in Dust 514. Remember, they have a 24 hour grace period before the bounty becomes active. Also, you would have to continuously pay the minimum bounty every time it gets cleared. Once the target is captured by the hunter, the hunter gets 100% which clears the entire bounty in one match. If you want to keep the hunter satisfied 24/7 you better have a very large wallet just to get little old CEO. XD Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 02:40:00 - [19] - Quote DeadlyAztec11 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: "Do something that warrants a bounty on your head" This is why Im strongly against anything that pulls a player out of match. Whats to stop people from bounty griefing noobs, forum goers, or enemy corps? If I randomly got pulled out of an active match Id likely turn the game off and go play something else It would be prohibitively expensive for the vast majority of people. There would also most likely be a timer so no one has a permanent bounty on them at all times. That's a good suggestion. I completely forgot about that. I think Eve Online has a similar mechanic in place in which the bounty of a specific target is refunded if the target is inactive for too long or something like that. What do you suggest for Nova? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 03:03:00 - [20] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: What prevents jerk with ISK to burn from trolling new players by putting bounties on them? Because the reason for placing bounties on people are relative, you can not simply define a characteristic worth placing a bounty for. i once asked for 3,000 ISK in eve online... I was given a 3,000 ISK bounty. We're my actions worth whatever negative game impacting effects of having a bounty? In eve online, having a large bounty on you is bad because players can locate and track you down. It means that at any given moment, someone will come to blow up your ship. So you can't really do certain things that would leave you vulnerable to attack. No mission running, no mining, no anything that you could use a fancy ship for. Large bounty can make the game less fun. Or more fun if your expecting to gain more potential fights from people looking to claim a bounty. These mechanics don't translate well into a lobby shooter. If the max players for a match is met, how do bounty hunters get into the match? If the limit is 32 and then +3 for each player with a bounty, how do we support that? If we can support that, why not just invest in larger battles? What prevents people from getting high bounties, then using an alt to claim the bounty and transfer the rewards to the person that had the bounty? You've effectively bank rolled the person you intended to make suffer and rewarded them. It wouldn't be too long before people figured that out and stopped putting bounties on people. At this point, players would intentional avoid a feature dev resources and time were spent on to create that could've been used elsewhere, like pve If you received a 3,000 ISK bounty in Eve Online, don't worry about it. The current system in Eve Online makes it pointless to chase someone with that kind of bounty on their. As of right now, you only get 20% of the value of the player's ship you destroyed which is deducted from the player's bounty pool. You don't get 100%. Because of this, you have to be flying an extremely blingy ship with a very big bounty on your head to be worth chasing. Even then, CCP didn't care what reasons there had to be for a bounty to be placed. If someone looks at you funny, you can put a bounty on them. You concerned echoes that of the Eve player base from years ago when the bounty system was overhauled. Years later, that system is still in place and no one seems concerned about it anymore in Eve. Also, having a bounty on you doesn't automatically make you a valid target in Eve Online. That player who is hunting you for the bounty has to catch you in low-sec or null-sec space if they don't want to bother with the whole dueling mechanic that Eve now has. Even if they managed to destroy your ship, they only get 20% of the value of the ship you lost deducted from your bounty. So if you lost an 80 million ISK ship, they only get 16 million ISK and that's assuming they didn't suicide gank you in high-sec which costs them their ship as well when they lose it to Concord. The mechanics in Eve make bounty hunting practically pathetic for the hunters to be honest and it bummed out a lot of players. You might as well run missions or mine asteroid fields since those are more lucrative. As for the number of hunters in each match, if you read the document I linked, you'll see that it's limited to just 3 hunters at the most for just one target in the match. If the map is big enough (which we'll likely not see for years) you might see a little more but up to maximum so it won't get too chaotic. Again, that would require a huge map which obviously we suspect don't exist in Nova and probably won't for several years. By that time, the bounty hunting system could be polished and more refined. So for now, just 3 hunters maximum and just for 1 target out of the entire 32-player roster on the field until bigger maps come along. And since only one hunter can legally claim the prize, all 3 hunters have to compete against each other unless they conspire with each other. Of course, since you were randomly assigned to them by Concord, there is no way to know for sure if hunters can even trust each other. And since they have to fight through 32 other players just to get to you, you're relatively safe as long as you stay close to your group. As for bankrolling bounties, again, read the document. Only Concord can assign a bounty target to you. You have NO CONTROL as a hunter on who you get to chase. And you can only claim the prize by entering a match in progress as a neutral which leaves you wide open for attack to the other 32 players (not including the 2 other competing hunters). And even if you re-rolled the 5 targets you were given, Concord cannot let you re-roll any more than a certain number of times per week and once you reach that limit you're stuck with whatever selection Concord gave you for the remainder of the 2 weeks you have to claim them. Did you read the document? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy

Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 03:06:00 - [21] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: I am sure that there are ways that bounties could be different for Nova that would prevent some abuses. Like capping out bounties based upon player level/EXP/value etc. Perhaps these bounties could be limited to certain play modes. I am sure we could come up with enough constraints that could prevent enough abuses to make the system worthwhile. I didn't think about it like that. Nice idea you have there. For new players with lower levels/experience/etc. I would probably put a cap on that. But if you reach past a certain threshold where you are practically a veteran who should know better by now, then the bounty maximum is lifted. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 23:38:00 - [22] - Quote Ok Pokey Dravon gone done it and came up with an awesome looking concept skin for Concord. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/144508438905356288/319099562792976384/LuxConcord.png Imagine seeing some hunters reach an achievement and earn a dropsuit or maybe some firmware like that from Concord. LOL Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13775	Posted - 2017.05.30 23:42:00 - [23] - Quote Ok, after giving it some thought based on your feedback, perhaps allowing bounty hunters to enter corp battles might not work out very well. At least not without knowing how corp battles will function in the first place for Project Nova. So perhaps until we get more information on how corp battles will really work, we can just restrict bounty hunters to public matches and other modes that are NOT corp battles. There are just too many unknowns surrounding corp battles at this point. I will update the document accordingly. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
DiGreatDestroyer Grupo de Asalto Chacal 367	Posted - 2017.05.30 23:55:00 - [24] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Ok, after giving it some thought based on your feedback, perhaps allowing bounty hunters to enter corp battles might not work out very well. At least not without knowing how corp battles will function in the first place for Project Nova. So perhaps until we get more information on how corp battles will really work, we can just restrict bounty hunters to public matches and other modes that are NOT corp battles. There are just too many unknowns surrounding corp battles at this point. I will update the document accordingly. I think allowing hunters in Corp battles makes for an interesting dynamic. If a hunter enters then the teams can try flipping him so he plays for their side. The possibilities this gives makes me wish that they would be allowed in corp matches. BTW, what happens to hunters once they get their target? Are they kicked from the match too? Or do they get to play it until the end (my preferred choice)? #KeepDustInThePS3
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 00:34:00 - [25] - Quote DiGreatDestroyer wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: Ok, after giving it some thought based on your feedback, perhaps allowing bounty hunters to enter corp battles might not work out very well. At least not without knowing how corp battles will function in the first place for Project Nova. So perhaps until we get more information on how corp battles will really work, we can just restrict bounty hunters to public matches and other modes that are NOT corp battles. There are just too many unknowns surrounding corp battles at this point. I will update the document accordingly. I think allowing hunters in Corp battles makes for an interesting dynamic. If a hunter enters then the teams can try flipping him so he plays for their side. The possibilities this gives makes me wish that they would be allowed in corp matches. BTW, what happens to hunters once they get their target? Are they kicked from the match too? Or do they get to play it until the end (my preferred choice)? Hmm... didn't think about what would happen to them if they succeeded in capturing their target. They already got what they came for. Maybe if they got both sides to do some sort of bidding war for his services even though the attackers and defenders are already in the middle of an actual war themselves. Perhaps if what they're fighting for is worth so much more than what the hunter is willing to accept as payment, they could go for it. But then again, the hunter may not be in the mood and just opt out as soon as he got what he originally came for. As for the other two hunters who lost their chance at a prize, they might be more willing to take sides. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 16:02:00 - [26] - Quote I too DO NOT like how this affects standard battles. I think it would be simpler to add a loot finding mode in Nova similar to the Dark Zone in The Division. In the Division though, the game automatically adjusted players wanted levels for killing other players. In Nova, players hold other players accountable by posting bounties and other actions. This would only work though if all players actively playing in the loot mode could get to each other. All in all, if such a loot mode was actually implemented, it would mirror a portion of what is going on in EVE (resource gatherers and those hunting resource gatherers except everyone in Nova would be both resource gatherer and hunter ). I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 17:41:00 - [27] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: I too DO NOT like how this affects standard battles. I think it would be simpler to add a loot finding mode in Nova similar to the Dark Zone in The Division. In the Division though, the game automatically adjusted players wanted levels for killing other players. In Nova, players hold other players accountable by posting bounties and other actions. This would only work though if all players actively playing in the loot mode could get to each other. All in all, if such a loot mode was actually implemented, it would mirror a portion of what is going on in EVE (resource gatherers and those hunting resource gatherers except everyone in Nova would be both resource gatherer and hunter ). To be honest I'm not sure how that would work out since I never played The Division. But if it can work out well and make bounty hunting both profitable and fun, then I'm for it. The one question I have for you though is how do you want to set it up in terms of in-game mechanics in a way that keeps the abuse of such a feature to a minimum? Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 18:21:00 - [28] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: The one question I have for you though is how do you want to set it up in terms of in-game mechanics in a way that keeps the abuse of such a feature to a minimum? For some context (from The Division official web page): Quote: Linked seamlessly with the rest of the game it is the place for PvP-fights and at the same time contains the most powerful and rarest loot in The Division. Basically, loot would spawn in timed intervals on the map. While waiting for loot to populate, players would encounter and often kill each other. If you killed a player with loot, you could take it. The only way to actually retrieve the loot was to make it to a safe zone on the edge of the map. If the loot area was big enough, multiple safe zones that were far between, and loot actually spawned in random locations throughout, I do not see a way to exploit it. The Division did end up having huge roving gangs in the Dark Zone but EVE has the same sort of gangs roaming around low and null sec where can be interpreted as a part of the game. The same could be said about those that would camp the safe zones. It would be awesome if such a mode was made in Nova where all active players had access to each other similar to how all players have access to each other in EVE. In such a mode, running bounties would make the most sense as players in such an area would likely be using their best. If you have any further questions or want any more clarifications, please reply. I like talking basic concepts. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 18:43:00 - [29] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Maken Tosch wrote: The one question I have for you though is how do you want to set it up in terms of in-game mechanics in a way that keeps the abuse of such a feature to a minimum? For some context (from The Division official web page): Quote: Linked seamlessly with the rest of the game it is the place for PvP-fights and at the same time contains the most powerful and rarest loot in The Division. Basically, loot would spawn in timed intervals on the map. While waiting for loot to populate, players would encounter and often kill each other. If you killed a player with loot, you could take it. The only way to actually retrieve the loot was to make it to a safe zone on the edge of the map. If the loot area(s) was big enough (and possibly tiered), multiple safe zones were available but far between, and loot actually spawned in random locations throughout, I do not see a way to exploit it. The Division did end up having huge roving gangs in the Dark Zone but EVE has the same sort of gangs roaming around low and null sec where can be interpreted as a part of the game. The same could be said about those that would camp the safe zones. It would be awesome if such a mode was made in Nova where all active players had access to each other similar to how all players have access to each other in EVE. In such a mode, running bounties would make the most sense as players in such an area would likely be using their best. If you have any further questions or want any more clarifications, please reply. I like talking basic concepts. In that case I can see where the abuse can happen. The roaming gangs. Knowing how players in New Eden operate, they will no doubt find the most profitable path with least resistance and as such there will no doubt be roaming gangs who can coordinate with each other in a way that maximizes the loot and minimizes the loss. Example: Player A allows Player B to capture a shiny loot and use it against Player A before proceeding to the safe zone where they then get to claim the loot. After successfully claiming the loot, Player B than allows Player A to do the same to B as B did to A. Rinse and repeat. You could stagger the collection process between players C, D, E, F, G, and so on. Again, I never played The Division, so perhaps I could be wrong on how this could have been exploited in that game. Did players in that community have any complaints about roaming gangs farming shiny loot in the Dark Zone? When you brought it up earlier, I was thinking something along the lines of Player A team killing Player B. Player B places a bounty on Player A when the game offers B a chance to put a bounty on Player A so that Player C, D, E, F, G, and so on (in that same match) can legally team kill Player A and share the bounty based on who damaged Player A the most. At least that's the gist of what I thought you meant. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 18:55:00 - [30] - Quote Too lazy to quote from above. To answer your question, loot picked up from a chest or killed player is not usable within the loot area. Within the loot area, the loot you've acquired is simply a thumbnail. Only when you reach the safe zone does the loot then become one of your assets. Hearing how Nova is going to be though, I see loot in Nova being merely ISK and SP boosts anyway. In any case, ISK and SP boosts would be the simplest have as loot as would benefit all players. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".

Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 18:55:00 - [31] - Quote @Moorian I noticed in your edit that you brought up the Eve Online bounty system. I have studied that bounty system extensively (I'm a 9-year-long Eve Online veteran) and found that even though the system is almost perfectly unexploitable, it's also almost perfectly pathetic. Try going to Eve Online and ask anyone around if they make a career out of bounty hunting in Eve and still make a profit based only on that system. They might say they do it as a career, but it's very likely they came up with their own bounty system using a combination of intelligence gathering, corporate connections, and word of mouth. I don't see anyone there making a profit only with the bounty payout system that CCP implemented without having to rely on third-party sources (ex: alliance leaders who pay a lot of ISK for the frozen corpses of specific players). Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 19:00:00 - [32] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Too lazy to quote from above. To answer your question, loot picked up from a chest or killed player is not usable within the loot area. Within the loot area, the loot you've acquired is simply a thumbnail. Only when you reach the safe zone does the loot then become one of your assets. Hearing how Nova is going to be though, I see loot in Nova being merely ISK and SP boosts anyway. In any case, ISK and SP boosts would be the simplest have as loot as would benefit all players. Oh ok, I think I got that a little backwards when I read it. Sorry about that. So if you killed a player CARRYING loot then you keep it. Even then, that can be exploited if the players can coordinate with each other. And knowing how CCP usually is with their games (except for Gunjack) they will give players as many tools as possible to coordinate. It's the reason why we have corporations and alliances in Eve Online and why Dust 514 had it. Obviously we don't see much of that in Valkyrie and definitely not with Gunjack because such tools are not necessary in such games with the exception of basic communications. EDIT: This is why it took me a while to compile the document I linked on the OP. I took the time to figure out how to minimum exploitation while still retaining the FUN factor in bounty hunting. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 19:04:00 - [33] - Quote I think I will mention an alternative which is based on what I mentioned earlier in post #29. "Player A team killing Player B. Player B places a bounty on Player A when the game offers B a chance to put a bounty on Player A so that Player C, D, E, F, G, and so on (in that same match) can legally team kill Player A and share the bounty based on who damaged Player A the most." This might work as well as an alternative. I will update the document to include a new addendum when I have the time. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 19:33:00 - [34] - Quote Well, I am pretty sure exploiters brought it to that. After all, if a player could make a sizeable profit by having an alt or friend kill them, they likely would. Here is the simplest but most concise bounty system I can think of off the top of my head (over 30 minutes): - The first player to kill the hunted player 3 times receives the bounty. This way, a single bounty would likely cause more than 3 deaths to the hunted player but only the player that makes the 3 kills from the time the bounty is placed gets the bounty. - Each bounty would have its own kill count. This way, if there are multiple bounties on a single player place at different times, multiple players would likely receive the bounties. - A bounty on a hunted player cannot be claimed by another player in the same corporation or alliance (which makes corp/alliance matter a little more). - The bounty will have a minimum and maximum amount (TBD within Nova economy). If a player really pissed you off and you want to go over max limit, submit multiple bounties. - There is an additonal tax/cost to placing a bounty such as 10% where is not free. - Bounties only run for a short period such as 3 days. - A player who placed a bounty has some sort of record/notice when their bounty has been claimed. - A player who claims a bounty has some sort of record/notice along with a bounty hunter multiplier that raises slightly with each claimed bounty. - A player who escapes a bounty where it is not claimed has some sort of record/notice. Let me know what you think. BTW, I noticed you replied twice while I was drawing this up. Not even sure if this matters any more. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 19:39:00 - [35] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Well, I am pretty sure exploiters brought it to that. After all, if a player could make a sizeable profit by having an alt or friend kill them, they likely would. Here is the simplest but most concise bounty system I can think of off the top of my head (over 30 minutes): - The first player to kill the hunted player 3 times receives the bounty. This way, a single bounty would likely cause more than 3 deaths to the hunted player but only the player that makes the 3 kills from the time the bounty is placed gets the bounty. - Each bounty would have its own kill count. This way, if there are multiple bounties on a single player place at different times, multiple players would likely receive the bounties. - A bounty on a hunted player cannot be claimed by another player in the same corporation or alliance (which makes corp/alliance matter a little more). - The bounty will have a minimum and maximum amount (TBD within Nova economy). If a player really pissed you off and you want to go over max limit, submit multiple bounties. - There is an additonal tax/cost to placing a bounty such as 10% where is not free. - Bounties only run for a short period such as 3 days. - A player who placed a bounty has some sort of record/notice when their bounty has been claimed. - A player who claims a bounty has some sort of record/notice along with a bounty hunter multiplier that raises slightly with each claimed bounty. - A player who escapes a bounty where it is not claimed has some sort of record/notice. Let me know what you think. BTW, I noticed you replied twice while I was drawing this up. Not even sure if this matters any more. Interesting idea. I will post it on the document as yet ANOTHER addendum. XD Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 19:48:00 - [36] - Quote Maken Tosch wrote: Even then, that can be exploited if the players can coordinate with each other. I am not sure how you mean. BTW, the loot area I am picturing is massive. To draw you a picture, imagine a small, empty, barren planet (Treasure Planet ) with nothing but small safe zones dispersed throughout and loot boxes that can spawn anywhere every 5 to 30 minutes. In such an environment, it is empty enough where you can spend minutes without seeing another player but you could die in a moment if you happen to run into some. Sound good? Yes, such an area could have coordinated groups running throughout but it would be too big to be managed completely by one group alone. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.05.31 20:02:00 - [37] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: [...] Yes, such an area could have coordinated groups running throughout but it would be too big to be managed completely by one group alone. Just letting you know Eve players will take that as a challenge. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Moorian Flav 663	Posted - 2017.05.31 20:31:00 - [38] - Quote If CCP can make an entire connected universe, they could easily do the same thing with a basic planet and even scale up to a set a planets if needed. A quick example would be they wall off huge sections of the planet(s) to be used as loot areas where the safe zones not only act as a place to retrieve loot but move between adjoining loot areas. Furthermore, moving to adjoining loot areas would not charge but instant moving from one loot area to another several areas over would cost (shuttle charge). The farther you immediately go, the bigger the cost. That way, a player could not be on one side of the planet and jump to the opposite side of the planet without paying a significant charge. BTW, I think CCP would welcome players to try such an endeavor. One reason Planetary Conquest failed is because you had the safety padding of 24 hours between each attack. And even if you had multiple districts attacked at the same time, you had time to hire out. In a live loot mode as I discussed, there is no time for prep; just acting and reacting. BTW, I am sorry if I had gotten your thread off track discussing a possible loot mode. I just think it would add a part of EVE to Nova that was previously missing from DUST. The bounty hunting I suggested above would also work within a standard battle though. Speaking of, I originally had kill count to 5 but not I think 3 might be too few. Maybe 4 would be the best kill quota for a bounty. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Moorian Flav 675	Posted - 2017.06.01 19:15:00 - [39] - Quote Looks like I may have incidentally killed this thread. Sorry. I don't troll; I tell the truth. I'm also known as "The ANTI-Propaganda Machine".
Maken Tosch DUST University 13776	Posted - 2017.06.01 20:13:00 - [40] - Quote Moorian Flav wrote: Looks like I may have incidentally killed this thread. Sorry. Nah, this is just a normal part of the life cycle of all my threads. Starts off inactive, get's busy and then it dies off. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy



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