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The Heavy: Tank vs DPS

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Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7970	Posted - 2016.11.01 18:13:00 - [1] - Quote On the Biomass podcast Xel mentioned the gaming standard where the highest HP class, the Tank, is supposed to have low DPS. This obviously was not the case in DUST, as the HMG Heavy had both health and damage. CCP tried to balance this in other ways, and did an ok job, but I thought I would propose an approach which would make sense and more closely follow the classic MMO class standards. Add a weight mechanic, and give each Dropsuit size a different Strength rating. The Dropsuit is basically a powered exoskeletal suit that includes life support and the structural base for attaching power supplies, armor/shields, and other modules to. Dropsuits should have the HP of a soda can until either Shields or Armor are added. What you can fit would not just be effected by PG and CPU, but also by weight. - Heavy Weapons would be Very heavy, so that only a Heavy Suit has the strength to carry them. - Armour comes in Light, Medium, and Heavy. Shield Generators come in Light, Medium, and Heavy. A Heavy Dropsuit is strong enough to carry a Heavy weapon, or equip Heavy Armor and/or a Heavy Shield Generator, but not both. So a Heavy with an HMG would have to equip Medium Armor and be a slow moving DPS. A Heavy with Heavy Armor would have to equip a light weapon with no special suit bonuses and be a low damage Tank. Give all Heavy suits the ability to equip two Light weapons and you would have Commando and Heavy in one suit, and Commando would actually make sense as the Tank class. Weight would prevent a Heavy from equipping both a Heavy and Light weapon without gimping themselves. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7970	Posted - 2016.11.01 18:40:00 - [2] - Quote From a Lore or just common sense perspective a weight mechanic would just be a more intuitive way of explaining why only Heavy Dropsuits can use Heavy weapons and why Scout Dropsuits only ware the lightest armor. It also prevents Heavys from being both High Damage and High HP at the same time, which makes them much easier to balance against other suits. It also gives CCP another balance metric to make it easier to balance weapons, modules, and equipment. Armor can have high weight, while a Cloaking Device would have high CPU requirements. Give Scout and Logi suits high CPU, and Heavy Suits high Strength. Then you have mechanical suit restrictions, without having to impose arbitrary suit restrictions. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 10600	Posted - 2016.11.01 19:10:00 - [3] - Quote Every suit should be able to wield any weapon (ie HMG-using scout) if there is a weight mechanic. This way, if they use that weapon, they'd have to sacrifice their modules/equipments. Maybe make it like dark souls where it you're over 100%, you can't run. *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
Nomed Deeps The Exemplars 604	Posted - 2016.11.01 19:41:00 - [4] - Quote I personally like how Hawken implemented "heavies". In Hawken, movement is normally slower than lighter mechs and the weapons and defense are subpar even though they have higher HP. To get functional use out of the heavies, you have to post up where movement is decreased even further but defense and firepower are buffed. To equalize this further where not overpowered, damage to the heavies blindspot/back is also increased. Here's an example of what I mean by posting up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yp90CMwplgI If heavies had a defensive activation while similarly buffing/minimizing stats like in Hawken, there would be alot more strategy to playing as a heavy then merely making sure you don't overheat. I cannot be bought, but I can be leased.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7970	Posted - 2016.11.01 19:43:00 - [5] - Quote Joel II X wrote: Every suit should be able to wield any weapon (ie HMG-using scout) if there is a weight mechanic. This way, if they use that weapon, they'd have to sacrifice their modules/equipments. Maybe make it like dark souls where it you're over 100%, you can't run. Well, I think that equipping an HMG would overburden a Scout even with nothing else equipped. Maybe a Medium could make a viable HMG fight, but everything else on the fit would have to be very light with some empty slots. Not being able to run when overburdened is an interesting idea, but I am not sure that I like a hard cut-off like that. I had been thinking that for every 1% you are over weight both your walk and run speeds would be reduced by 1%, but we could have the walk speed reduced by 1% and the run speed reduced by 2%. It we did that, at what point would the run speed be slower than the walk speed? That might be a good point at which to make the fitting invalid. I suggest having a fit that is two overburdened be an invalid fit mainly to prevent new players from making a big mistake, and because at a certain point a very overburdened fit has very little use except as a turret. I am not sure we want to encourage turret fits. (HMG+Heavy Armor. Use a LAV to move him to the objective and dump him there for defense.) Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7970	Posted - 2016.11.01 19:50:00 - [6] - Quote Nomed Deeps wrote: If heavies had a defensive activation while similarly buffing/minimizing stats like in Hawken, there would be alot more strategy to playing as a heavy then merely making sure you don't overheat. This is a bit off the weight topic, but an active Shield Extender module would be cool. You could even have an overheat mechanic on it that if you don't turn it off before it overheats it drops your shields and has a 3 second delay before the shields start to recharge again. (I know you were talking about overheat on the weapon, but it gave me the idea.) It would not have to be Heavy specific, but of course an Active Shield Extender would be most effective if you had a Heavy Shield Generator fitted. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
The KTM Duke Send Hatemails After The Beep. Beeeeep 1310	Posted - 2016.11.01 23:26:00 - [7] - Quote Honestly...since the last update till dust end any HMG outside the assault one was weird; hit detenction vs shield tanked - speed tanked suit was far from fine. Heavy should be king of point defense and a big deal in CQC and in my opinion it was no more Made in Bergamo, exporting pain where-ever is needed Hatemails wont die w/ dust 21.10.15 the day that changed my life
DUST Fiend 18821	Posted - 2016.11.02 01:36:00 - [8] - Quote If they were supposed to be tanks they should have had some kind of "weapon" that was basically a mobile shield, letting them actually absorb enemy damage for their team as they pushed into an objective. Heavies existed to kill vehicles up until Swarms were placed at the top and commandos were added. I don't think I'll ever hate a weapon as much as Swarm Launchers, and I'll never hate a class as much as Dual SL Commandos From dust we rose through trials young as legions run through countless souls; resting dreams within the boundless nova.
Sergeant Sazu Mantodea MC 1089	Posted - 2016.11.02 01:52:00 - [9] - Quote I like this idea quite a bit Mr. Gaden. I see no flaws. DUST Fiend wrote: I don't think I'll ever hate a weapon as much as Swarm Launchers, and I'll never hate a class as much as Dual SL Commandos 2 Swarm Launchers would've been silly. The lv. 5 Commando reload speed made things fast enough, and no decent vehicle pilot stayed exposed long enough for 6 consecutive lock-ons. Nonetheless, the SL was a failed weapon several times over, as they were far too strong against anything other than HAVs. They never took my suggestion for repurposing the Assault variant as a faster but weaker anti-dropship version. "Stab you to death, stab you to life!" -Truck Fist after knifing a red and reviving me
DUST Fiend 18821	Posted - 2016.11.02 02:06:00 - [10] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: I like this idea quite a bit Mr. Gaden. I see no flaws. DUST Fiend wrote: I don't think I'll ever hate a weapon as much as Swarm Launchers, and I'll never hate a class as much as Dual SL Commandos 2 Swarm Launchers would've been silly. The lv. 5 Commando reload speed made things fast enough, and no decent vehicle pilot stayed exposed long enough for 6 consecutive lock-ons. Nonetheless, the SL was a failed weapon several times over, as they were far too strong against anything other than HAVs. They never took my suggestion for repurposing the Assault variant as a faster but weaker anti-dropship version. It was pretty annoying having to hang around the outskirts all match cuz some ******* sat on top of a tower drooling up at the sky. Also you only needed 3 direct hits to take out most dropships. The only plus side to no vehicles is no auto lock garbage AV either. Woo. From dust we rose through trials young as legions run through countless souls; resting dreams within the boundless nova.

Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13266	Posted - 2016.11.02 02:09:00 - [11] - Quote There are ways to do high damage + high DPS without breaking a game and invalidating other roles. Example: ULTRAMARINE. When the devastators in PvP are running around they have to use short, often inaccurate bursts or smaller blasts. When they lock down and brace, sacrificing mobility they are able to lay down pain at the cost of slow turning and vulnerability to flankers, especially jump troops. The heavy plasma cannon could one-shot enemies, but the charge mechanic for doing so was akin to a forge gun shot. The heavy bolter was death on a cracker at long range... if you brace. It all comes down to designing the role with the weapons in mind, and looking at how they should logically be vulnerable. Bulky, unwieldy weapons should be deadly at their intended ranges, sure. But that doesn't mean that a heavy suit should be able to universally respond to threats closer than an HMG's medium range, or that cornering in CQC should be simple. The high HP = low DPS falls apart in FPS games and glass cannon tends to work phenomenally well in most FPS. Balancing by tank/dps/healer falls apart in most games. Setting suits up by what their military role might be makes more sense. Heavies big firepower, big tank. Downsides? Slow, cannot disengage, which means every encounter is "all or nothing." Poor maneuverability: cannot sidestep, engage cover as effectively, and doesn't corner well. Inaccurate, wild fire when moving: creates a situation where recoil, weapon shake or flaring/heat makes it hard to engage targets at longer ranges efficiently, requiring heavies to get "too close" to engage. Long range, accurate fire requires immobility. You wanna play long range fire support? You're going to be exposed. Your nickname is sniper bait. Just ideas, nothing really refined much. But those are directions I would look at for heavies. To make them a support suit rather than a mainline fighter were I to take a shot at design. But heavies aren't traditional "tanks" because they cannot force opponents to pay attention to them so the faster, more blasty enemies can tear them apart. But you can make them dependent upon support infantry by making them vulnerable to flankers. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Lynn Beck Xer Cloud Consortium Control-Alt-Duvolle 2529	Posted - 2016.11.02 02:47:00 - [12] - Quote Armored Core did this pretty well, where everything had weight to it, and(in the 3rd and 4th gens at least) allowed you to go over on that weight and only suffer speed and vertical speed penalties, one such build i did was always somewhere along the lines of 6283/6260 available weight, and lost about 10-15% of its' speed(even though it was only around 3-7% overweight) Honestly we should be super harsh on people for going overweight, but still allow it. if a heavy wants to fit both heavy armor and heavy weapon it should remove sprinting and make strafe 40% of what it should be or something. General John Ripper -BAM! I'm Emeril Lagasse. This message was approved by the 'Nobody Loved You' Foundation'
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations 8774	Posted - 2016.11.02 05:36:00 - [13] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Long range, accurate fire requires immobility. You wanna play long range fire support? You're going to be exposed. Your nickname is sniper bait. So Siege Mode? EVE: Phoenix - 'Rise Again' Trailer
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13267	Posted - 2016.11.02 06:14:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Long range, accurate fire requires immobility. You wanna play long range fire support? You're going to be exposed. Your nickname is sniper bait. So Siege Mode? Nah, that would imply your defenses get better. What I'm implying is that for heavy weapons to be brought to bear, with full efficiency especially if Sentinels are a support class by definition and concept (they are so far as I understand) there needs to be a sacrifice of some kind. I personally believe (YMMV, and I dunno how Rattati intends to resolve this conundrum overall) that rather like a modern machinegun, or SMAW (Marine rocket launcher used as an infantry bunker-buster like fifteen years ago), or Mortar, or what have you there needs to be a weakness that goes with it. I believe heavy weapons should never be fully independent of squad support, even if you can one-man them. Heavy weapons have always been weapons to support infantry in one way or another, be that by suppressive fire from behind or above friendly infantry, or flanking fire? How about putting vehicles in the hurt-locker and discourage tanks from roaring "I AM AN UNSTOPPABLE GOD! COWER BEFORE ME!" to popping aircraft out of the sky. But the common thread here is that these weapons never run unsupported. they can't run unsupported. I've tried to maneuver an M-240 Golf model medium machinegun (loaded) like a rifle. Hehehehe, Jesus I cannot express just how much that DOES NOT WORK. It's a four-foot long, unwieldy beast that weighs about 25 pounds unloaded, with another 15-20 pounds of ammunition hanging off the left side in disintegrating links. I feel that for Sentinels to be balanced, there ability to act completely independently of teammates (except for Logi, and I feel that the old fatty+logi combo should never automatically mean a win button, even with three rep tools and a hot trigger) should be sharply curtailed. Not making them nosebleed murder fighters, and not by giving them some magic module that makes them harder to kill if they stop moving. They've, historically, been hard enough to kill without any such added handicap. Unless something changes, they don't need that. As an example, if you brace your weapon, and you go full-on rock and roll on the enemy, then you're probably doing it on medium to long range. but when you brace, you turn slower. The transition from standing to braced and back should, ideally have it's own animation, and scouts and fast-movers should be able to look and go "hey now, that guy's a turtle, let's go flip him on his ass." That's assuming that the mechanic even gets used. But as a counterpoint, let's use the HMG on the move as an example: If you're not braced, you're probably fighting recoil, your arms aren't locked, the thing is vibrating like a rock-crusher and you're trying to control it while trundling along. Ok, sure, you can hit someone and do lots of damage, if they're in shotgun range coming at your face. The smart ones are going to duck behind cover and get behind you, or back up shooting you to keep out of the short range until you get frustrated and brace, then bolt around something to stab you while you're locking down or locked. I love sentinels. Absolutely love them. they remind me of the days when I was actually training to use heavy weapons. But the way they were balanced for most of the game's lifespan really did make all of the native weaknesses irrelevant. It also made them hella unfair to deal with. Never mind the general playerbase's conception of "Point defense" has little to nothing to do with the actual definition of the word. "Point Defense" has nothing, I cannot say this enough, NOTHING to do with holding an objective by sitting on it and shooting anyone who arrives. Point-Defense is actively denying opponents the ability to easily APPROACH the target area, period. If they're on the objective fighting, point-defense has utterly failed. Back in beta they had a turn speed restriction. This was unfair as hell because the HMG was only effective at ranges where people could literally strafe circles around you shooting you in the side of the head. If they'd been made longer range and kept that turning penalty I feel the HMG would have eventually been in a better place over the long run. Because the fatties would have been brutal long-range fire, and exposed a lot so they could keep their eyes on an open field around them to spot the bastards with shotguns and knives coming for their souls. and if they let literally anyone get close enough to beat their turn speed? You ded. There's a LOT of ways to make heavies in general more fair and fun to deal with that doesn't include neutering them. The weight idea isn't a bad one, but I dunno if that one is a viable method at this time, we'd have to ask a dev, and I doubt even the CPM nerds (myself included, because I'm one of the nerdiest nerds who ever nerded) will get a straight answer until the devs have something to test and show. By the way, Nomed Deeps, excellent discussion, thanks for adding another potential way to go. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7971	Posted - 2016.11.02 12:49:00 - [15] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: I like this idea quite a bit Mr. Gaden. I see no flaws. DUST Fiend wrote: I don't think I'll ever hate a weapon as much as Swarm Launchers, and I'll never hate a class as much as Dual SL Commandos 2 Swarm Launchers would've been silly. The lv. 5 Commando reload speed made things fast enough, and no decent vehicle pilot stayed exposed long enough for 6 consecutive lock-ons. Nonetheless, the SL was a failed weapon several times over, as they were far too strong against anything other than HAVs. They never took my suggestion for repurposing the Assault variant as a faster but weaker anti-dropship version. The Swarm Launchers would have been fine if they had a counter. Dropships should have countermeasures including flack/flares to decoy missiles. They also need Radar Ping, Missile Lock, and Missile Incoming warnings, maybe even with a distance tacked onto the warning. Not only would that give the Pilot an idea of when to release countermeasures, it would also make rendering issues less of a problem. But all of that is off topick. You are welcome to dig up my thread from last month on vehicles or create a new thread. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7971	Posted - 2016.11.02 14:32:00 - [16] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: As an example, if you brace your weapon, and you go full-on rock and roll on the enemy, then you're probably doing it on medium to long range. but when you brace, you turn slower. The transition from standing to braced and back should, ideally have it's own animation, and scouts and fast-movers should be able to look and go "hey now, that guy's a turtle, let's go flip him on his ass." That's assuming that the mechanic even gets used. But as a counterpoint, let's use the HMG on the move as an example: If you're not braced, you're probably fighting recoil, your arms aren't locked, the thing is vibrating like a rock-crusher and you're trying to control it while trundling along. Ok, sure, you can hit someone and do lots of damage, if they're in shotgun range coming at your face. The smart ones are going to duck behind cover and get behind you, or back up shooting you to keep out of the short range until you get frustrated and brace, then bolt around something to stab you while you're locking down or locked. I am struggling to recall the details of exactly what was technically wrong with the HMG back in the day before they got some loving from Rattati and became popular. If I recall, at the time I thought it was that there was too much dispersion, but I think it turned out that there was no dispersion on it at all and it was the recoil and moving around that was causing it to miss on hip fire. Anyway, what ever was going on, for those who were not playing Heavies at the time, there was a time in DUST when the HMG was not overly effective but was very accurate at a decent range if you crouched. There was a great Rattati quote from when he was just a stats guy in Finance who really liked playing the game like the rest of us fans. I think he said something like: "but when your crouch the angles sing!" Anyway, stance control was a big thing back then. When to crouch and when not to crouch, that was the question. Because when crouched your movement was so slow that you could not just duck behind cover, you had to take that extra step of standing up before you could really move. It added a tactical decision to the Heavy game play that I really liked, so I agree that requiring a crouch or braced position for medium to long range accuracy is a good way to balance the HMG. Basically, make the HMG highly accurate (low dispersion) but make it kick like a mule... no, make it kick like a jackhammer with many small kicks... so that your target reticle moves slightly in a random direction with every round fired. At close range the operator should be able to keep the reticle mostly on target, because a close target is fairly large, but as the target gets farther away and smaller it would be harder and harder to compensate for the random movement of the aiming reticle so that an HMG in hip fire is only effective in very close range. Have ADS be a standing brace position that reduces kick a bit, while also slowing turn speed. Have the crouched or braced position completely remove the kick, but with very slow movement until you stand up again. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
DUST Fiend 18823	Posted - 2016.11.02 15:08:00 - [17] - Quote Heavy weapons should probably only slightly slow you down if fired from the hip, but to ADS you get a more severe movement and turning penalty. It was there in DUST but wasn't all that noticeable most of the time. Just do that and you make them far more vulnerable when they're dishing out the hurt. From dust we rose through trials young as legions run through countless souls; resting dreams within the boundless nova.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7971	Posted - 2016.11.02 15:22:00 - [18] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Heavy weapons should probably only slightly slow you down if fired from the hip, but to ADS you get a more severe movement and turning penalty. It was there in DUST but wasn't all that noticeable most of the time. Just do that and you make them far more vulnerable when they're dishing out the hurt. That is a good point that the turning penalty was there in DUST, just very minor. The tern speed nerf on the Heavy Dropsuit was removed in patch 1.4, but what most people did not realize was that there was a turn speed effect on weapons as well, and as one of the heaviest weapons the HMG had the slowest turn speed. That is why when a Scout got close in it was sometimes better to switch to your sidearm to more easily track it. Of course people could counter the slower turn spead by increasing the sensitivity on their controls. I think the Shotgun had a slower turn speed than the rifles did. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Jack Boost Zarena Family 1137	Posted - 2016.11.02 16:01:00 - [19] - Quote Tell me when Heavys where overpowered and still need nerf? Hit box and slow speed (already in game) make this class almost unplayable. From patch to patch this class get more nerfs, one by one and get one bonus when resists comes. And after game-death you wont more ? Fine... If you talk about combo with logi... still no valid cus if you see logi + assalut or scout and what they can do, heavy is still underpowered. If you talk about heavy vs vehicles... talks ends here... Not much time left...
DUST Fiend 18823	Posted - 2016.11.02 16:07:00 - [20] - Quote Jack Boost wrote: heavy is still underpowered That's news to me, Heavies didn't ever seem to be in too much of a bad place if played well. Slow speed was almost entirely negated by vehicles, and the turn speed was increased quite a bit which made tracking scouts fairly easy. I'd welcome higher potential HP if it meant a more stationary attack platform. From dust we rose through trials young as legions run through countless souls; resting dreams within the boundless nova.

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7972	Posted - 2016.11.02 19:16:00 - [21] - Quote Jack Boost wrote: Tell me when Heavys where overpowered and still need nerf? Hit box and slow speed (already in game) make this class almost unplayable. From patch to patch this class get more nerfs, one by one and get one bonus when resists comes. And after game-death you wont more ? Fine... If you talk about combo with logi... still no valid cus if you see logi + assalut or scout and what they can do, heavy is still underpowered. If you talk about heavy vs vehicles... talks ends here... I am talking about a new balancing metric, not a specific nerf for Heavy's. If the weight mechanic means you have to chose between Damage, HP, and Mobility and can only pick two of those, then the HMG can be allowed to be a powerful weapon because there are balances to keep it from being OP. - You can be a low HP Heavy with HMG and movement mods. - You can be a medium HP Heavy with HMG. - You can be a high HP Heavy with a light weapon. - You can be a relatively high HP Heavy with an HMG, but with a 30% movement speed nerf. The point is that the weight mechanic lets you decide what nerfs you are willing to accept for the buffs you want, rather than CCP having to hard code the nerfs by making Heavys slow or gimping the HMG. They can even have an HMG variant that is lower damage but also lighter, so it can be equipped along with some Heavy Armor. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Jack Boost Zarena Family 1137	Posted - 2016.11.02 21:40:00 - [22] - Quote You must also take in your equation how many slots have selected frame. Two, three slots difference and you can't compete. I can be ok when medium frame use heavy weapon (as in Eve you can to do this at some level), but with this extra slots you can nulfile any penalties and still have better overal performance then heavy (speed, CPU/PG, scan range/scan profile, hit box). Eve do well with ship size scaling... there... are some things broken and up side down. Not much time left...
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13269	Posted - 2016.11.02 23:46:00 - [23] - Quote What we're all dancing around, jack, is a desire to see suits balanced around their roles. Example: i would like to see heavies as heavy duty fire SUPPORT, and not a primary slayer class. I want to see it be devastating as a squads backup. I'd like to see assaults and commandos be the primary light and heavy infantry. And so on, and so forth. It's a desire to have a solid path to success, that with creativity and fitting savvy, can be adjusted to your own playstyle. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7972	Posted - 2016.11.03 14:44:00 - [24] - Quote How about giving Heavys an ability to act as mobile cover? Like maybe a wide collapsible riot shield, using Nano tech to unfurl and support the shield for a limited amount of time. The shield would have an additional hit point pool, be wide enough for two people to take cover behind the Heavy, have a limited deployment time, and have a cool-down before it can be deployed again. Since Heavy's don't have equipment slots, it could be categorized as a Sidearm and make it only practical on Heavy suits the way Cloaks are only practical on Scouts. - You would have an Armor version (riot shield) and a Shield version (projected shield wall). This would be ideal for pushing on enemy positions across open ground. It would work best in a fire team of 4 with a Heavy, two gunmen providing cover fire from either side of the shield, and a logy trailing to keep the Heavy up. - Have the shield not cover the head and feet so it is still possible to damage the Heavy directly. - The shield has a hit point pool, so do enough damage and you can drop it early, leaving the fire-team in the open. - The Heavy cannot use a weapon while the external shield is deployed. - The Heavy cannot sprint while the shield is deployed. Ok, so this is a new idea, so there might be some holes in it, but what do you guys think? This would allow the Sentinel to really accomplish the traditional MMO Tank role. It only works for a limited time, but provides a strategy for pushing heavily defended positions. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Sergeant Sazu Mantodea MC 1089	Posted - 2016.11.03 15:01:00 - [25] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: How about giving Heavys an ability to act as mobile cover? Like maybe a wide collapsible riot shield, using Nano tech to unfurl and support the shield for a limited amount of time. The shield would have an additional hit point pool, be wide enough for two people to take cover behind the Heavy, have a limited deployment time, and have a cool-down before it can be deployed again. Since Heavy's don't have equipment slots, it could be categorized as a Sidearm and make it only practical on Heavy suits the way Cloaks are only practical on Scouts. - You would have an Armor version (riot shield) and a Shield version (projected shield wall). This would be ideal for pushing on enemy positions across open ground. It would work best in a fire team of 4 with a Heavy, two gunmen providing cover fire from either side of the shield, and a logy trailing to keep the Heavy up. - Have the shield not cover the head and feet so it is still possible to damage the Heavy directly. - The shield has a hit point pool, so do enough damage and you can drop it early, leaving the fire-team in the open. - The Heavy cannot use a weapon while the external shield is deployed. - The Heavy cannot sprint while the shield is deployed. Ok, so this is a new idea, so there might be some holes in it, but what do you guys think? This would allow the Sentinel to really accomplish the traditional MMO Tank role. It only works for a limited time, but provides a strategy for pushing heavily defended positions. Also approved. Every game needs a Reinhardt. "Stab you to death, stab you to life!" -Truck Fist after knifing a red and reviving me
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7973	Posted - 2016.11.03 18:36:00 - [26] - Quote Sergeant Sazu wrote: Also approved. Every game needs a Reinhardt. I don't play Overwatch, so I am not giving Blizard credit for this idea... well... I guess playing a Warrior tank in WOW back in 2009 may have influenced my thinking, so maybe I should give Blizard some credit. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
LHughes Dust Was Shite 583	Posted - 2016.11.03 19:07:00 - [27] - Quote Games dead, go get laid. My signature
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7973	Posted - 2016.11.04 14:21:00 - [28] - Quote LHughes wrote: Games dead, go get laid. My wife has this really nasty cold right now... I am not sure that I want to get that close... Anyway, the point was to figure out what could be done better in the new FPS. DUST is just used as a point of reference. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1301	Posted - 2016.11.07 23:53:00 - [29] - Quote Breakin's post about bracing up heavy weapons reminds me how much I loved playing Space Marine, and also how well the bracing system worked. Before bracing, the Heavy Bolter was a slow firing weapon not that dissimilar from the Assault HMG. Once you braced, you could open up with the full RoF, locking down pathways and denying anything. You were vulnerable up close and at extreme ranges (easy headshots) while braced, but you were NOT something to be taken lightly. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 16130	Posted - 2016.11.08 00:08:00 - [30] - Quote LHughes wrote: Games dead, go get laid. Nova is not dead. It might be fetal, but its definitely not dead. Just because Dust is gone doesn't mean we can't be forward thinking. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.

ActualCannibal Shia LeBeouf 0	Posted - 2016.11.08 00:10:00 - [31] - Quote LHughes wrote: Games dead, go get laid. You have blue balls, go play a game. Hilarious signature goes here.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13274	Posted - 2016.11.08 04:12:00 - [32] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Jack Boost wrote: heavy is still underpowered That's news to me, Heavies didn't ever seem to be in too much of a bad place if played well. Slow speed was almost entirely negated by vehicles, and the turn speed was increased quite a bit which made tracking scouts fairly easy. I'd welcome higher potential HP if it meant a more stationary attack platform. This is kinda my point. Well, close to it. If Heavies have enough firepower and armor to be a force to be noticed (and worth using) on the battlefield, then they need to lose something equally important. My choice would be the ability to solo casually, or the ability to just have a logi buddy stuck to your butt all the time. I would like sentinels to be a squad support platform that needs the support of a full squad to fully take advantage of their power, an easy way to enforce that is by making them the most vulnerable to flankers when they are at their most deadly. My riddle for heavy weapons: "Which way should you approach a heavy weapon?" "From any direction other than where they are aiming." You should have serious issues if you try to out-firepower them head-on, as it's the kind of fight he's MADE for. but if you decide to attack from the sides or rear, he should have problems rapidly responding to you. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2312	Posted - 2016.11.08 15:36:00 - [33] - Quote Whilst weight is an interesting idea to include, I don't think it's necessary and probably not worth the complexity. I agree with Breakin' that there is no reason a heavy suit can't have damage and defence. When compared to other MMOs with tank/heal/dps, remember there is no specific taunt function in an fps. The taunt comes from the danger a high damage weapon causes. The trade-offs are mobility and the need for support. Those trade-offs were quite well represented in Dust. The long reload and heat build up of the HMG, along with the lack of equipment or stealth/detection on the sentinel meant that they were weak unsupported. The lack of mobility was a major drawback as well. Balance-wise I felt the HMG was a bit underpowered at the end of DUST, and I saw no reason why it couldn't have had more dps and range. Despite this I think Dust proved that there is no reason a heavy can't be balanced with both power and defence.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2312	Posted - 2016.11.08 16:05:00 - [34] - Quote TL/DR: Scouts should be fast and stealthy, heavies should be slow, tough, powerful and need support, mediums should be in between. Fittings should allow hybrids without crossing into other suits. No need to make everyone the same. Heavy weapons should be powerful. Post (sorry it's long): As for fittings in general, there's an argument to say there should be only one type of suit that can be fitted they way you like. The reason for the different classes are for asthetics and the ability to visually identify theats and allies. Since the classes exist for this good reason, there is no need for huge variability in how a suit performs based on it's fit as you can always, and should be encouraged to, use an appropriate size suit for the job you want it to do. I'm not against fitting variation, but I don't feel it's neccessary to be able to fit one class to be the same as a different class. In fact I think it's probably better if that isn't very easy as it tends to encourage people into an optimal middle ground instead of encouraging fitting variety on the extremes. It also annoys people due to the disconnect between what they are seeing and what they experience. For much of Dust hp modules were overpowered. This resulted in most players using little else. This situation was much better by the end, but that was mainly due to the dominance of assault suits, who had their base hp dramatically increased thus reducing the effectiveness of hp mods, and the strafe nerf to armour plates (which I was against as it was not sufficiently explained in game to players and resulted in peculiar feeling movement. Strafing were later nerfed in general, making the plate nerf obsolete). The fact that hp modules provided a straight hp increase instead of a percentage increase was a big problem and caused fitting to be counter-intuitive. Fitting an hp mod on a scout suit provided a much greater relative benefit than fitting it to a heavy. The only reason tanked scouts greatly diminished was that the buffed assaults made a much better suit than a tanked scout. Really that is how it should be. If you want to use a light suit fitted with lots of hp instead of speed and stealth, you should be better off just using the suit designed for that type of combat. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrid builds, which should be somewhere in betweeen. The nerfs to scout stealth were mostly unneccessary. Scouts were only replaced as the best general combat suit once assault hp and module slots were buffed, and armour plates were nerfed. Scouts were then rightly used (in most cases) optimised for speed and stealth. Unfortunately the nerfs to stealth and the buffs to assaults left the fast/stealthy scouts somewhat underpowered by the end. Fitting a heavy felt kind of stange, as I was always aware that the hp mods were less effective than on mediums, however the role strongly encouraged fitting tank. Making hp mods provide a percentage bonus would solve both these problems by encouraging fitting tank to heavies, and discouraging it from lights, thus making the fitting process more intuitive and encouraging suit variety. This visual recognition goes for weapons too. A heavy weapon has to be significantly more powerful than a light weapon to fit the design. By the end of Dust, the HMG was too weak to fit it's design, as it was for much of Dust post release.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 16132	Posted - 2016.11.08 20:33:00 - [35] - Quote ^ Truth Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 965	Posted - 2016.11.08 21:57:00 - [36] - Quote near the end when i picked up heavies all of em were basically simple cheap fits that worked. had one suit with all slots filled with code breakers. it was my hacking fit. with gal sent and everything i opted to just stack reps instead of hp as it felt somewhat better than trying to brick tank. against other heavies chances of success was more like 50% for me. recovery seemed alot more effective for armor rather than being a slow weak brick. however i did have plate stacked builds and everything else in between. i just ran the rep build the most because it allowed greater freedom in the field. isnt the point of the heavy to be slow durable and powerful?. great potential is always there.. it just has yet to be realized 1st one in. and also.. The Last One Out....
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7978	Posted - 2016.11.09 15:54:00 - [37] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: The fact that hp modules provided a straight hp increase instead of a percentage increase was a big problem and caused fitting to be counter-intuitive. Fitting an hp mod on a scout suit provided a much greater relative benefit than fitting it to a heavy. The only reason tanked scouts greatly diminished was that the buffed assaults made a much better suit than a tanked scout. Really that is how it should be. If you want to use a light suit fitted with lots of hp instead of speed and stealth, you should be better off just using the suit designed for that type of combat. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrid builds, which should be somewhere in betweeen. The nerfs to scout stealth were mostly unneccessary. Scouts were only replaced as the best general combat suit once assault hp and module slots were buffed, and armour plates were nerfed. Scouts were then rightly used (in most cases) optimised for speed and stealth. Unfortunately the nerfs to stealth and the buffs to assaults left the fast/stealthy scouts somewhat underpowered by the end. Fitting a heavy felt kind of stange, as I was always aware that the hp mods were less effective than on mediums, however the role strongly encouraged fitting tank. Making hp mods provide a percentage bonus would solve both these problems by encouraging fitting tank to heavies, and discouraging it from lights, thus making the fitting process more intuitive and encouraging suit variety. You make a solid point. Also, if HP modules worked on a % rather than being a straight HP add, the stacking penalty would also discourage stacking too many of one module type and encourage more fitting diversity. There were times when other modules were underutilized because stacking HP was so effective. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Scheneighnay McBob Penumbra or something 8030	Posted - 2016.11.09 16:52:00 - [38] - Quote We're lucky your average pub player in Dust was really stupid. All they ever did was pound the frontline with assault suits, when sentinels would have worked far better. Current state of the forums
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13276	Posted - 2016.11.09 18:57:00 - [39] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: We're lucky your average pub player in Dust was really stupid. All they ever did was pound the frontline with assault suits, when sentinels would have worked far better. Only if you had sentinels maxed and knew exactly what you were doing. Most players starting out who tried sentinels early on were really soured by the experience. Its not nearly as forgiving a class as most people claim. Most players cannot find a dedicated logi tether. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.12 13:55:00 - [40] - Quote Out of all the suits, the Sentinel was only one that was reliant on teamwork and support; no equipment meant they weren't sulf sustaining, bad at E-War meant they had to very alert, slow speed meant they were vulnerable in the open. As they should be. No other class was forced to rely on others quite so much. Not to mention that Sentinels had the lowest WP generation rates since they only thing they could reliably do was kill. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7985	Posted - 2016.11.14 13:36:00 - [41] - Quote Yeah, I like the Brace idea. Considerable dispersion and kick when hip firing, making the HMG only effective at very close range. Less dispersion and kick when in ADS mode (standing brace) along with slower turn speed and slower movement speed, making the HMG more effective at near mid rang and less effective in close range. No dispersion and Kick when crouched (kneeling brace), but with even slower turn speed and very slow movement speed, making the HMG effective out to the extent of its range, but also making the Heavy an easy target and very vulnerable to closer range combat. Stance dancing would be a real skill for the Heavy player. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.14 14:28:00 - [42] - Quote Bracing with a Heavy Bolter normally takes around 2 seconds to set-up, the perk makes it about 1 second, meaning you're a more mobile fire support. Downside is that, since you only had two perk slots, you had to miss out on something else, such as extra ammo or armour regen. Firing on the move also generated more heat per shot compared to braced fire. So, on the move, you were often better off with your side arm unless you were really good/lucky in encounters. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7986	Posted - 2016.11.14 16:55:00 - [43] - Quote 2 seconds to get into a full Brace (crouch) in a PVP environment might be a little much. Isn't that about the reload time on a sidearm? Maybe 1 second would be a good balance? That should be enough to make a full Brace a proactive rather than a reactive move. Maybe with a Skill allowing you to reduce it to 0.5 seconds. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.14 19:23:00 - [44] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: 2 seconds to get into a full Brace (crouch) in a PVP environment might be a little much. Isn't that about the reload time on a sidearm? Maybe 1 second would be a good balance? That should be enough to make a full Brace a proactive rather than a reactive move. Maybe with a Skill allowing you to reduce it to 0.5 seconds. 1 second is enough time for a reactive brace in Space Marine, 2 seconds means having to set up in advance and wait for targets. Perhaps 1.5 base set-up time, reduced to 1 second. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die


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