DUST Search - The Heavy: Tank vs DPS

Varoth Drac wrote:

The fact that hp modules provided a straight hp increase instead of a percentage increase was a big problem and caused fitting to be counter-intuitive. Fitting an hp mod on a scout suit provided a much greater relative benefit than fitting it to a heavy.

The only reason tanked scouts greatly diminished was that the buffed assaults made a much better suit than a tanked scout. Really that is how it should be. If you want to use a light suit fitted with lots of hp instead of speed and stealth, you should be better off just using the suit designed for that type of combat. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrid builds, which should be somewhere in betweeen. The nerfs to scout stealth were mostly unneccessary. Scouts were only replaced as the best general combat suit once assault hp and module slots were buffed, and armour plates were nerfed. Scouts were then rightly used (in most cases) optimised for speed and stealth. Unfortunately the nerfs to stealth and the buffs to assaults left the fast/stealthy scouts somewhat underpowered by the end.

Fitting a heavy felt kind of stange, as I was always aware that the hp mods were less effective than on mediums, however the role strongly encouraged fitting tank.

Making hp mods provide a percentage bonus would solve both these problems by encouraging fitting tank to heavies, and discouraging it from lights, thus making the fitting process more intuitive and encouraging suit variety.

Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.

Pages: 1 [2] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
ActualCannibal Shia LeBeouf 0	Posted - 2016.11.08 00:10:00 - [31] - Quote LHughes wrote: Games dead, go get laid. You have blue balls, go play a game. Hilarious signature goes here.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13274	Posted - 2016.11.08 04:12:00 - [32] - Quote DUST Fiend wrote: Jack Boost wrote: heavy is still underpowered That's news to me, Heavies didn't ever seem to be in too much of a bad place if played well. Slow speed was almost entirely negated by vehicles, and the turn speed was increased quite a bit which made tracking scouts fairly easy. I'd welcome higher potential HP if it meant a more stationary attack platform. This is kinda my point. Well, close to it. If Heavies have enough firepower and armor to be a force to be noticed (and worth using) on the battlefield, then they need to lose something equally important. My choice would be the ability to solo casually, or the ability to just have a logi buddy stuck to your butt all the time. I would like sentinels to be a squad support platform that needs the support of a full squad to fully take advantage of their power, an easy way to enforce that is by making them the most vulnerable to flankers when they are at their most deadly. My riddle for heavy weapons: "Which way should you approach a heavy weapon?" "From any direction other than where they are aiming." You should have serious issues if you try to out-firepower them head-on, as it's the kind of fight he's MADE for. but if you decide to attack from the sides or rear, he should have problems rapidly responding to you. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2312	Posted - 2016.11.08 15:36:00 - [33] - Quote Whilst weight is an interesting idea to include, I don't think it's necessary and probably not worth the complexity. I agree with Breakin' that there is no reason a heavy suit can't have damage and defence. When compared to other MMOs with tank/heal/dps, remember there is no specific taunt function in an fps. The taunt comes from the danger a high damage weapon causes. The trade-offs are mobility and the need for support. Those trade-offs were quite well represented in Dust. The long reload and heat build up of the HMG, along with the lack of equipment or stealth/detection on the sentinel meant that they were weak unsupported. The lack of mobility was a major drawback as well. Balance-wise I felt the HMG was a bit underpowered at the end of DUST, and I saw no reason why it couldn't have had more dps and range. Despite this I think Dust proved that there is no reason a heavy can't be balanced with both power and defence.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game Preatoriani 2312	Posted - 2016.11.08 16:05:00 - [34] - Quote TL/DR: Scouts should be fast and stealthy, heavies should be slow, tough, powerful and need support, mediums should be in between. Fittings should allow hybrids without crossing into other suits. No need to make everyone the same. Heavy weapons should be powerful. Post (sorry it's long): As for fittings in general, there's an argument to say there should be only one type of suit that can be fitted they way you like. The reason for the different classes are for asthetics and the ability to visually identify theats and allies. Since the classes exist for this good reason, there is no need for huge variability in how a suit performs based on it's fit as you can always, and should be encouraged to, use an appropriate size suit for the job you want it to do. I'm not against fitting variation, but I don't feel it's neccessary to be able to fit one class to be the same as a different class. In fact I think it's probably better if that isn't very easy as it tends to encourage people into an optimal middle ground instead of encouraging fitting variety on the extremes. It also annoys people due to the disconnect between what they are seeing and what they experience. For much of Dust hp modules were overpowered. This resulted in most players using little else. This situation was much better by the end, but that was mainly due to the dominance of assault suits, who had their base hp dramatically increased thus reducing the effectiveness of hp mods, and the strafe nerf to armour plates (which I was against as it was not sufficiently explained in game to players and resulted in peculiar feeling movement. Strafing were later nerfed in general, making the plate nerf obsolete). The fact that hp modules provided a straight hp increase instead of a percentage increase was a big problem and caused fitting to be counter-intuitive. Fitting an hp mod on a scout suit provided a much greater relative benefit than fitting it to a heavy. The only reason tanked scouts greatly diminished was that the buffed assaults made a much better suit than a tanked scout. Really that is how it should be. If you want to use a light suit fitted with lots of hp instead of speed and stealth, you should be better off just using the suit designed for that type of combat. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrid builds, which should be somewhere in betweeen. The nerfs to scout stealth were mostly unneccessary. Scouts were only replaced as the best general combat suit once assault hp and module slots were buffed, and armour plates were nerfed. Scouts were then rightly used (in most cases) optimised for speed and stealth. Unfortunately the nerfs to stealth and the buffs to assaults left the fast/stealthy scouts somewhat underpowered by the end. Fitting a heavy felt kind of stange, as I was always aware that the hp mods were less effective than on mediums, however the role strongly encouraged fitting tank. Making hp mods provide a percentage bonus would solve both these problems by encouraging fitting tank to heavies, and discouraging it from lights, thus making the fitting process more intuitive and encouraging suit variety. This visual recognition goes for weapons too. A heavy weapon has to be significantly more powerful than a light weapon to fit the design. By the end of Dust, the HMG was too weak to fit it's design, as it was for much of Dust post release.
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 16132	Posted - 2016.11.08 20:33:00 - [35] - Quote ^ Truth Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
CLONE117 True Pros Forever 965	Posted - 2016.11.08 21:57:00 - [36] - Quote near the end when i picked up heavies all of em were basically simple cheap fits that worked. had one suit with all slots filled with code breakers. it was my hacking fit. with gal sent and everything i opted to just stack reps instead of hp as it felt somewhat better than trying to brick tank. against other heavies chances of success was more like 50% for me. recovery seemed alot more effective for armor rather than being a slow weak brick. however i did have plate stacked builds and everything else in between. i just ran the rep build the most because it allowed greater freedom in the field. isnt the point of the heavy to be slow durable and powerful?. great potential is always there.. it just has yet to be realized 1st one in. and also.. The Last One Out....
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7978	Posted - 2016.11.09 15:54:00 - [37] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: The fact that hp modules provided a straight hp increase instead of a percentage increase was a big problem and caused fitting to be counter-intuitive. Fitting an hp mod on a scout suit provided a much greater relative benefit than fitting it to a heavy. The only reason tanked scouts greatly diminished was that the buffed assaults made a much better suit than a tanked scout. Really that is how it should be. If you want to use a light suit fitted with lots of hp instead of speed and stealth, you should be better off just using the suit designed for that type of combat. Not that there is anything wrong with hybrid builds, which should be somewhere in betweeen. The nerfs to scout stealth were mostly unneccessary. Scouts were only replaced as the best general combat suit once assault hp and module slots were buffed, and armour plates were nerfed. Scouts were then rightly used (in most cases) optimised for speed and stealth. Unfortunately the nerfs to stealth and the buffs to assaults left the fast/stealthy scouts somewhat underpowered by the end. Fitting a heavy felt kind of stange, as I was always aware that the hp mods were less effective than on mediums, however the role strongly encouraged fitting tank. Making hp mods provide a percentage bonus would solve both these problems by encouraging fitting tank to heavies, and discouraging it from lights, thus making the fitting process more intuitive and encouraging suit variety. You make a solid point. Also, if HP modules worked on a % rather than being a straight HP add, the stacking penalty would also discourage stacking too many of one module type and encourage more fitting diversity. There were times when other modules were underutilized because stacking HP was so effective. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Scheneighnay McBob Penumbra or something 8030	Posted - 2016.11.09 16:52:00 - [38] - Quote We're lucky your average pub player in Dust was really stupid. All they ever did was pound the frontline with assault suits, when sentinels would have worked far better. Current state of the forums
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 13276	Posted - 2016.11.09 18:57:00 - [39] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: We're lucky your average pub player in Dust was really stupid. All they ever did was pound the frontline with assault suits, when sentinels would have worked far better. Only if you had sentinels maxed and knew exactly what you were doing. Most players starting out who tried sentinels early on were really soured by the experience. Its not nearly as forgiving a class as most people claim. Most players cannot find a dedicated logi tether. Yes, I am a Goon. No, I don't care about your spacepolitik.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.12 13:55:00 - [40] - Quote Out of all the suits, the Sentinel was only one that was reliant on teamwork and support; no equipment meant they weren't sulf sustaining, bad at E-War meant they had to very alert, slow speed meant they were vulnerable in the open. As they should be. No other class was forced to rely on others quite so much. Not to mention that Sentinels had the lowest WP generation rates since they only thing they could reliably do was kill. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die

Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7985	Posted - 2016.11.14 13:36:00 - [41] - Quote Yeah, I like the Brace idea. Considerable dispersion and kick when hip firing, making the HMG only effective at very close range. Less dispersion and kick when in ADS mode (standing brace) along with slower turn speed and slower movement speed, making the HMG more effective at near mid rang and less effective in close range. No dispersion and Kick when crouched (kneeling brace), but with even slower turn speed and very slow movement speed, making the HMG effective out to the extent of its range, but also making the Heavy an easy target and very vulnerable to closer range combat. Stance dancing would be a real skill for the Heavy player. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.14 14:28:00 - [42] - Quote Bracing with a Heavy Bolter normally takes around 2 seconds to set-up, the perk makes it about 1 second, meaning you're a more mobile fire support. Downside is that, since you only had two perk slots, you had to miss out on something else, such as extra ammo or armour regen. Firing on the move also generated more heat per shot compared to braced fire. So, on the move, you were often better off with your side arm unless you were really good/lucky in encounters. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die
Fox Gaden Immortal Guides 7986	Posted - 2016.11.14 16:55:00 - [43] - Quote 2 seconds to get into a full Brace (crouch) in a PVP environment might be a little much. Isn't that about the reload time on a sidearm? Maybe 1 second would be a good balance? That should be enough to make a full Brace a proactive rather than a reactive move. Maybe with a Skill allowing you to reduce it to 0.5 seconds. Hand/Eye coordination cannot be taught. For everything else there is the Learning Coalition.
Megaman Trigger OSG Planetary Operations 1302	Posted - 2016.11.14 19:23:00 - [44] - Quote Fox Gaden wrote: 2 seconds to get into a full Brace (crouch) in a PVP environment might be a little much. Isn't that about the reload time on a sidearm? Maybe 1 second would be a good balance? That should be enough to make a full Brace a proactive rather than a reactive move. Maybe with a Skill allowing you to reduce it to 0.5 seconds. 1 second is enough time for a reactive brace in Space Marine, 2 seconds means having to set up in advance and wait for targets. Perhaps 1.5 base set-up time, reduced to 1 second. Purifier. First Class. Legends never die


Pages: 1 [2] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page