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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.07 22:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
Maybe there should be the normal SHAV and an assault HAV with a extra large crew controlled turret and a pilot controlled medum turret in the front and as an addition have a gunship with a pilot controlled large turret a extra large top and bottom turret, two large side turrets and a medum back turret
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.07 23:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Slayer Deathbringer wrote:Maybe there should be the normal SHAV and an assault HAV with a extra large crew controlled turret and a pilot controlled medum turret in the front and as an addition have a gunship with a pilot controlled large turret a extra large top and bottom turret, two large side turrets and a medum back turret Ideally I'd like to move away from single-player-juggernaut style vehicles as a whole as the first stage in redesign. As soon as you get over Light vehicle hulls, any offensive capability should rely on teamwork. I will amend that from the standpoint of offensive vehicles that are single-player by design, like jets. As far as I'm concerned, as a tradeoff to their offensive potential, they shouldn't even have resistance to small-arms. Their HP should be VERY low such that your only means of survival is staying mobile and using countermeasures to try and protect yourself from lock-on weapons. Maybe if the SHAV was really good at killing medum and light suits but had a hard time killing heavy suits and otherwise were like the DUST HAVs in that it makes the enemy have to bring AV out but be easy to kill with concentrated AV fire and also have the multiplayer AHAVs as a better alternative in that role by taking more players to kill than the SHAV but still enough AV or 2+ SVAVs can kill one
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.07 23:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:I like your idea except for the last one. Energy Vamps and Neutralizers should only be limited to vehicles as modules since those logically take up a lot of power and processing to do what they do. If you look at Eve Online you will often see ships that are fitted with Energy Vamps and Neuts be also fitted with Capacitor Booster to compensate for the massive drain that the Vamps and Neuts have on the ship that is using them. Engineering/lore wise, it makes sense to make Vamps and Neuts in Project Nova restricted to vehicles as modules.
The effect of these Cap-hindering modules should primarily affect the turrets. Vehicles should have the ability to drive away even under these conditions because the engineering of the vehicles (thinking lore here) includes one such redundancy where the powerplant of the vehicle being targeted doesn't need capacitor as it is the part of the vehicle that provides Capacitor in the first place. If the onboard computers sense a sudden increase in the demand for more power that exceeds its type design it will assume that the Capacitor is being energy drained and thus the system will automatically cut power to the Capacitor and use that power instead to drive the wheels so that the vehicle can get to safety. The Capacitor will be drained eventually but at least the pilot can get away to safety so that the onboard computer can switch back to recharging the Cap.
But once the Cap is drained, all primary and secondary weapons will be rendered useless unless that weapon happens to be projectile-based such an Autocannon or Missile Turret. Rail, Blaster and laser turrets depend heavily on Capacitor and thus become non-functioning once Cap is completely drained. Obviously you don't need Cap for a weapon the only fires crude gun-powder ammunition or self-guided missiles that only need a tiny spark to light the propellants.
This would give other vehicles stronger logistics roles if Energy Transfer modules are implemented. What do you think? I think that if that is the case than blasters, missiles, rails, and lasers should hit significantly harder than other turrets
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.07 23:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Maken Tosch wrote:I like your idea except for the last one. Energy Vamps and Neutralizers should only be limited to vehicles as modules since those logically take up a lot of power and processing to do what they do. If you look at Eve Online you will often see ships that are fitted with Energy Vamps and Neuts be also fitted with Capacitor Booster to compensate for the massive drain that the Vamps and Neuts have on the ship that is using them. Engineering/lore wise, it makes sense to make Vamps and Neuts in Project Nova restricted to vehicles as modules.
The effect of these Cap-hindering modules should primarily affect the turrets. Vehicles should have the ability to drive away even under these conditions because the engineering of the vehicles (thinking lore here) includes one such redundancy where the powerplant of the vehicle being targeted doesn't need capacitor as it is the part of the vehicle that provides Capacitor in the first place. If the onboard computers sense a sudden increase in the demand for more power that exceeds its type design it will assume that the Capacitor is being energy drained and thus the system will automatically cut power to the Capacitor and use that power instead to drive the wheels so that the vehicle can get to safety. The Capacitor will be drained eventually but at least the pilot can get away to safety so that the onboard computer can switch back to recharging the Cap.
But once the Cap is drained, all primary and secondary weapons will be rendered useless unless that weapon happens to be projectile-based such an Autocannon or Missile Turret. Rail, Blaster and laser turrets depend heavily on Capacitor and thus become non-functioning once Cap is completely drained. Obviously you don't need Cap for a weapon the only fires crude gun-powder ammunition or self-guided missiles that only need a tiny spark to light the propellants.
This would give other vehicles stronger logistics roles if Energy Transfer modules are implemented. What do you think? However, consider Void Bombs in EVE Online. Those are one-time-use AoE weapons that neutralize capacitor in a wide area. A Void Grenade could have a very large model and a shorter throw distance than the other grenades, meaning you have to get closer to get it to affect a vehicle. We could take that even further and make it a single-use high-fitting piece of equipment that you need to sneak up next to the vehicle and then deploy near it to get the effects. I agree on vehicles being mobile even without energy, but I disagree on turrets requiring energy to function. I think that's taking the complexity a little bit too far and will serve to be more frustrating than intriguing. Well that is better
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.08 00:30:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Dreis ShadowWeaver wrote:I think the capacitor idea is excellent, but not being able to shoot whilst piloting would be very boring.
+1 to native Mobile CRUs too Yeah, some vehicles should have those built in. Being able to fit them leads to stuff that doesn't make sense like LAVs that have unlimited spawns into the passenger seat, and fits being limited by having to use a slot for them. Also keep in mind that some people are fine with driving without shooting, same as some are fine with shooting while someone else drives. For people who don't like either, they can use Light vehicles. I don't see a way to balance something like an HAV if one person can get into it and be basically unstoppable by themselves. Similarly, it would suck to have to spend a lot of credits on an asset like that only to have it be very easy to destroy to compensate for it being able to do so much damage with only one player using it. That's why I think that for single person vehicles they should be able to kill lower size tier suits easily but equal or higher size tier suits would be a challenge
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.08 02:45:00 -
[6] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Let's not forget one very important thing here. For us to even get a chance to see vehicles in Project Nova in the future (and by future I mean distant) we have to ask ourselves some very important questions.
Do these vehicle types (LAVs, HAV & ADS) have any purpose being in Project Nova? If so, what is their purpose and when should it be needed? As I have proposed a while ago on DiscordApp, I suggested the following roles be assigned for the following reasons:
LAVs What is its purpose? Long distance travel at very high speeds. In other words, strictly as a transport. Sure there can be a turret but the turret should only serve as a defensive tool to ward off attackers, not be the attack platform itself.
When is it needed? Very large open maps where the terrain is so vast that even the fastest scout will find it a hindrance to just rely on running on foot. That scout will likely just call in an LAV anyways because what kind of scout would want to waste half an hour running from point A to point B when an LAV can do the same in 5 minutes?
ADS What is its purpose? Long distance travel at moderate speeds. Mainly as a transport like the LAV but has slightly better guns since it can be used as an assault platform.
When is it needed? Very large maps where mountains are plenty and can render LAVs vulnerable to an ambush. ADS can also serve as scouting platforms to get a set of eyes over that one ridge you are not sure of. This can be a perfect platform for delivering scouts as well. Notice how I only mentioned ADS because I feel that all dropships should be the same in terms of role. No more regular dropships that are completely redundant to assault types. Either make all dropships be ADS with MCRU built in (as the OP recommended) or don't include them at all.
HAVs What is their purpose? Siege Platforms.
When is it needed? When your opponent is bunkered in and you really want to break through their defenses where your ADS fails. Another situation where one is needed is when your opponent has set up some kind of structure that hinders your progress and your ADS, AV infantry and even the most powerful forge gun can't break through its defenses except for a HAV that is in siege mode. When in siege mode, it dishes out enough fire power to make a dent on an MCC but it is completely immobile for a set amount of time until the cycle completes. This is similar to dreadnoughts in Eve that are forced to stay stationary in the same way. So HAVs will either be slow or immobile why
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.08 05:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Slayer Deathbringer wrote: So HAVs will either be slow or immobile why
I never mentioned they would be slow. At least outside of siege mode. The speed I left that out so you guy can debate it. EDIT: Lore wise I would say that the HAV going into siege mode is devoting much of its power to the primary weapon as the onboard computer recalculates based on the new configuration. I would probably wager that during this phase the HAV has buffs against EWAR attacks during its cycle. Energy vamps and neuts might not work against it since the powerplant would likely dish out more cap boosting than what the vamps and neuts can take away. Of course that is assuming capacitors are ever implemented into the game. PS: We're talking about siege mode here where if any vehicle gets in the way of the line of fire they are ONE-HIT KILLED. Remember when I mentioned about them putting a dent on a MCC? That sounds nice but for the speed I would say that it should be similar for SHAVs as it was in DUST and maybe 25-50% slower for AHAVs
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.08 17:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote: I think we need to draw a line of ALL suits based on vehicle class, and have it be based on turrets specifically.
A small turret on an HAV should be just as effective against infantry as a small turret on an LAV. However, a Large Turret should be virtually incapable of being a major threat to infantry.
Consider today where most tank shells are either solid penetrators or shaped-charges with very little splash radius because they're designed for piercing the armor of other tanks. This is one area where emulating reality actually assists with game balance rather than detracting from it.
I agree, although if that solid shell actually hits an infantry directly it should be an instant kill. But with no splash, and slow turret tracking, so it is hard to get a direct hit on such a small moving target. Right again. Designing Larger turrets in that way rewards practice and precision with kills, rather than essential trolling infantry by shooting the ground near them repeatedly to kill them while they can't do anything to stop you. That's also part of why I prefer the idea of Turrets being empty sets of hardpoints on a vehicle and Vehicle Weapons being their own distinct entity. Ideally an HAV turret would have a Large and Small weapon hardpoint, so the gunner can engage infantry with the Small turret which would provide higher rate of fire or higher splash damage to make it better for engaging infantry at the cost of damage per shot. The Small Weapon would still be in the HAV turret though, and thus restricted to that turret's rotation speed. Well why exactly is that I mean what about blaster turrets I think that they should be capable of massacring infantry but are weaker against vehicles
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.08 22:11:00 -
[9] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Let's not forget that vehicles are not likely to be included in Project Nova on release. It will take a long time for vehicles to be implemented as that would require maps that are probably going to be built from scratch. For now, we are going to be stuck indoors. But it doesn't hurt to talk about it now to help CCP get an idea of what to aim for in the future.
Honestly I would prefer that CCP build outdoor maps from scratch like they are doing with Project Nova as a whole because then that will mean no glitches from Dust 514 carrying over to Project Nova. Well of course we just want them implemented right
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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Slayer Deathbringer
Planetary Response Organisation FACTION WARFARE ALLIANCE
110
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Posted - 2016.07.09 02:24:00 -
[10] - Quote
Mobius Wyvern wrote:Slayer Deathbringer wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote:Fox Gaden wrote:Mobius Wyvern wrote: I think we need to draw a line of ALL suits based on vehicle class, and have it be based on turrets specifically.
A small turret on an HAV should be just as effective against infantry as a small turret on an LAV. However, a Large Turret should be virtually incapable of being a major threat to infantry.
Consider today where most tank shells are either solid penetrators or shaped-charges with very little splash radius because they're designed for piercing the armor of other tanks. This is one area where emulating reality actually assists with game balance rather than detracting from it.
I agree, although if that solid shell actually hits an infantry directly it should be an instant kill. But with no splash, and slow turret tracking, so it is hard to get a direct hit on such a small moving target. Right again. Designing Larger turrets in that way rewards practice and precision with kills, rather than essential trolling infantry by shooting the ground near them repeatedly to kill them while they can't do anything to stop you. That's also part of why I prefer the idea of Turrets being empty sets of hardpoints on a vehicle and Vehicle Weapons being their own distinct entity. Ideally an HAV turret would have a Large and Small weapon hardpoint, so the gunner can engage infantry with the Small turret which would provide higher rate of fire or higher splash damage to make it better for engaging infantry at the cost of damage per shot. The Small Weapon would still be in the HAV turret though, and thus restricted to that turret's rotation speed. Well why exactly is that I mean what about blaster turrets I think that they should be capable of massacring infantry but are weaker against vehicles NOPE. I've talked to True Adamance about this many times, and I am firmly of the opinion that Large Blaster turrets were a stupid idea and had no business in the game. A proper Blaster turret should have a low rate of fire, slow-flying projectiles like a Plasma Cannon, and as little splash damage as possible. No Large Weapon for a vehicle should be able to be primarily used for killing infantry. I think that there could be a shotgun type turret that can kill infantry and vehicles well but is short range also what about AOE artillery weapons that are like moraters with high direct damage and a decent AOE but limited sight (maybe you can see the area that you are firing at)
"It's not my fault that you lost a 1 mill isk suit to a 1k isk forge gun"
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