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Alena Asakura
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
999
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Posted - 2016.05.23 10:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Just so you guys know, the DPS for rail rifles and assault rifles are as follows (proficiency 5 for both):
Rail rifle vs armour: 457 hp/s Assault rifle vs shield: 521 hp/s Assault rifle dps vs shield with Gal assault lvl 5: 599 hp/s
I'm showing dps vs armour and shield as both have a 10% damage bonus.
The data is all available on protofits, if you don't want to get it straight from the game. Although it doesn't have the Gallente assault bonus.
So, as you can see the assault rifle has considerably higher dps than the rail rifle. To make up for this the rail rifle has much greater range and accuracy. Although the rail rifle's hipfire accuracy is very poor.
Rail rifles and assault rifles are two of the most balanced weapons in the game. In fact so are Caldari and Gallente assaults, except for the fact that assaults in general are a bit OP compared to other classes.
edit: it is arguable that the Gallente assault bonus is a bit too powerful, but it's not a major issue. If anything it implies assault rifles are kind of weak without it. I myself have never thought of any of the weapons in the game is "unbalanced". They are what they are. To me, the AR is better than the RR because of the demonstrable superiority for close range encounters - higher ROF, higher DPS, shorter range, yes, but better for close range. The RR on the other hand is much better at range.
The problem arises when someone like me, as a dedicated Caldari, has to deal with close range encounters in a Caldari shield suit, with a RR. Almost every other race's weapons seem to cut through Caldari suits due to the shields and minimal armour. AR is certainly one of them, hybrid like the RR though they may be, their ROF and DPS just eats shields while my ARR has a very difficult time against heavily armoured suits, Gallente being one of them.
Caldari suits and weapons are designed for range. But to do most of what this game demands for any mode other than Ambush, like hacking objectives or installations, you must be able to deal with close range encounters. That's when the superiority of every other suit and weapon seems to show itself.
The imbalance isn't in the weapons and suits, it's in any attempt to play racially. When you're up against people who just use whatever weapon they want on any suit they want, and you aren't doing that yourself, you're likely going to see the game as unbalanced. |
Jenny Tales
Eternal Beings SpaceMonkey's Alliance
200
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Posted - 2016.05.23 17:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Rail rifle vs armour: 457 hp/s Assault rifle vs shield: 521 hp/s Assault rifle dps vs shield with Gal assault lvl 5: 599 hp/s
Oh your poor, poor shields have a weakness! How awful! It's bad enough you're nearly immune to everything else in the metagame! Poor you.
You don't have to adapt to stupidity. Natural selection takes care of that.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game Preatoriani
2284
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Posted - 2016.05.23 19:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jenny Tales wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Rail rifle vs armour: 457 hp/s Assault rifle vs shield: 521 hp/s Assault rifle dps vs shield with Gal assault lvl 5: 599 hp/s Oh your poor, poor shields have a weakness! How awful! It's bad enough you're nearly immune to everything else in the metagame! Poor you. All the suffering you must have endured as your PC districts were taken from your corp by LASER RIFLE USERS. Is this comment aimed at me? I'm not complaining about imbalance, just trying to help by making you aware of the facts. Both you and Alena stated that the rail rifle has higher dps than the assault rifle, which is incorrect as I have shown.
Also I clearly stated that I thought assault rilfes vs rail rifles and Caldari assaults vs Gallente assaults were balanced. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game Preatoriani
2284
|
Posted - 2016.05.23 19:59:00 -
[34] - Quote
Alena Asakura wrote: I myself have never thought of any of the weapons in the game is "unbalanced". They are what they are. To me, the AR is better than the RR because of the demonstrable superiority for close range encounters - higher ROF, higher DPS, shorter range, yes, but better for close range. The RR on the other hand is much better at range.
The problem arises when someone like me, as a dedicated Caldari, has to deal with close range encounters in a Caldari shield suit, with a RR. Almost every other race's weapons seem to cut through Caldari suits due to the shields and minimal armour. AR is certainly one of them, hybrid like the RR though they may be, their ROF and DPS just eats shields while my ARR has a very difficult time against heavily armoured suits, Gallente being one of them.
Caldari suits and weapons are designed for range. But to do most of what this game demands for any mode other than Ambush, like hacking objectives or installations, you must be able to deal with close range encounters. That's when the superiority of every other suit and weapon seems to show itself.
The imbalance isn't in the weapons and suits, it's in any attempt to play racially. When you're up against people who just use whatever weapon they want on any suit they want, and you aren't doing that yourself, you're likely going to see the game as unbalanced.
I understand the problem you have, sticking to only Caldari gear makes close quater combat difficult. Much like using only Gallente gear would make long range combat difficult. I will however make the following comments:
1) The game is not designed for characters to use only one race of suits. By imposing this restriction on yourself it is natural that you would be at a disadvantage in some situations. Though you are perfectly entitled to play this way.
2) Most battles involve the use of long and short range combat. There are plently of situations where range is extremely useful. In fact, back when the rail rifle was OP many people argued on the forums that range was by far the most important attribute (which I disagree with btw).
3) There are plenty of Caldari options for close combat. Assault rail rifles are very effective at short range as well as medium range, so are Magsecs. Nova knives are excellent CQC weapons and can be used well on a Caldari scout with it's dampening bonus and powerful passive scans. The Caldari logi can work well when operating in built up areas by using equipment to support thier team. Nano hives are great for grenades which are usefull for close combat. Rep hives are great. Nanite injectors are great.
4) Mixing weapons and suits from different races gives little benefit and isn't worth worrying about. Sure I like to use a scrambler pistol with my Caldari suit for anti-shield capabiliy. But I could easilly use a bolt pistol and benefit from the sweet reload bonus. Also, there is no need to fit armour on a Caldari suit regardless of engagement range.
I know the game's nearly gone, but I think it's good to clear this up for a future EVE fps. I'd prefer to have racial distinction and flavour than they all be the same, just with different graphics. It's good that Caldari are better at long range and Gallente are better at short range. |
LOL KILLZ
LulKlz
776
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Posted - 2016.05.23 20:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
SAMEERio wrote:This is some high quality salt. Will fetch a high market price
Dustkillz and chill
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Alena Asakura
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
1005
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Posted - 2016.05.23 21:23:00 -
[36] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:Jenny Tales wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:Rail rifle vs armour: 457 hp/s Assault rifle vs shield: 521 hp/s Assault rifle dps vs shield with Gal assault lvl 5: 599 hp/s Oh your poor, poor shields have a weakness! How awful! It's bad enough you're nearly immune to everything else in the metagame! Poor you. All the suffering you must have endured as your PC districts were taken from your corp by LASER RIFLE USERS. Is this comment aimed at me? I'm not complaining about imbalance, just trying to help by making you aware of the facts. Both you and Alena stated that the rail rifle has higher dps than the assault rifle, which is incorrect as I have shown. Also I clearly stated that I thought assault rilfes vs rail rifles and Caldari assaults vs Gallente assaults were balanced. Also, I use all races of assault suit and have no alegence to either shield or armour tanking. I also use shield and armour scouts, and shield and armour sentinels. The only thing I don't have is a shield commando. No, I stated no such thing. What I said is that assault rifles are OP against shields, particularly at close range. There is a myth in this game that RR is OP. That's purely because of its range. At close range, the AR rules over the ARR let alone the RR. |
Alena Asakura
Rogue Clones Yulai Federation
1005
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Posted - 2016.05.23 22:04:00 -
[37] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote: I understand the problem you have, sticking to only Caldari gear makes close quater combat difficult. Much like using only Gallente gear would make long range combat difficult. I will however make the following comments:
I know the game's nearly gone, but I think it's good to clear this up for a future EVE fps. I'd prefer to have racial distinction and flavour than they all be the same, just with different graphics. It's good that Caldari are better at long range and Gallente are better at short range.
I agree with everything you have said but have these thoughts for you:
Quote:1) The game is not designed for characters to use only one race of suits. By imposing this restriction on yourself it is natural that you would be at a disadvantage in some situations. Though you are perfectly entitled to play this way.
No it's not and that is a severe flaw. CCP makes much of not restricting players to one race or another or to specific weapons. But realism, which would make this game truly great, demands that at least racial weapons are used with the appropriate suits UNLESS some sort of training is undertaken towards a module which must be used to interface those suits with weapons from a different race. It's unreasonable to think that every suit would interface with every weapon just as a matter of course. The argument that we all come from the same stock of clones is also both irrelevant and unconsistent, as there would then be no reason for different races of suits and weapons.
I play the way I do to instill some realism into the game, at least for myself, even though it means I'm up against players who use any weapon on any suit to gain advantage. Logically, this also leads to endless FOTM, nerf and buff cycles, something CCP maintains they don't like having to do. It would be easier and more realistic for them to require correct weapons on correct suits other than with appropriate training and modules.
Quote:2) Most battles involve the use of long and short range combat. There are plently of situations where range is extremely useful. In fact, back when the rail rifle was OP many people argued on the forums that range was by far the most important attribute (which I disagree with btw).
Yes, most battles do involve both long and short range combat. There are some that particularly favour one or the other. There is however only one battle mode that specificly does not require short range capability as a fundamental requirement - Ambush. Like it or not, I can't escape needing to be able to handle CQC in my Caldari gear. Short range is my dilemma.
Quote:3) There are plenty of Caldari options for close combat. Assault rail rifles are very effective at short range as well as medium range, so are Magsecs. Nova knives are excellent CQC weapons and can be used well on a Caldari scout with it's dampening bonus and powerful passive scans. The Caldari logi can work well when operating in built up areas by using equipment to support thier team. Nano hives are great for grenades which are usefull for close combat. Rep hives are great. Nanite injectors are great.
Yes, the ARR is a good option for short range, but still not up to the AR. The MAGSEC is better for this, and I use it almost exclusively for short range, even if I have an ARR on the suit. In any case, short range is a problem for shields, not so much weapons.
Again with the Nova Knives. Yes I know they're made by Ishukone. Again, there are other weapons made by Ishukone which are not Caldari, and Nova Knives are not consistent with the long range mentality of Caldari. Nova Knives used on a Caldari suit are another inconsistency in the game. I run Caldari logi. You are correct with all you say about them and I use them this equipment all the times, including the repper hives. However, these are support roles, not actual combat. Interestingly, I find the speed of the logi, in combination with the Ishukone ARR to be a plus during combat, to support the group. In solo CQC combat however, the logi hasn't a chance.
Quote:4) Mixing weapons and suits from different races gives little benefit and isn't worth worrying about. Sure I like to use a scrambler pistol with my Caldari suit for anti-shield capabiliy. But I could easilly use a bolt pistol and benefit from the sweet reload bonus. Also, there is no need to fit armour on a Caldari suit regardless of engagement range.
You may see it that way, but there are plenty who don't. Using a long range weapon like a RR on a suit with heavy armour gives that player a significant advantage. Just sticking with the Caldari/Gallente example (the one I know the best), the heavier armour of a Gallente (up to about 800HP, usually) is much better to deal with any weapons, at any range. The shields on a Caldari suit, however, are mainly for long range, and need regen time. Yes, this can be shortened with the appropriate energs or rechargers, but at the expense of tank. The best tank I can get on a CalAss is about 900HP, both shield and armour, but the shields then have more than 2s delay on depletion - much too long for CQC.
My point is, people do get a benefit (even if only psychological) from mixing weapons and suits. Realism, which this game lacks from my perspective, would demand a significant penalty and some sort of training to do this, not just a set of questionable bonuses. The bonuses clearly have no effect on many players who simply go ahead and mix weapons and suits anyway.
I agree with wanting to clear all this up, which is why I actually posted this. It would be good for CCP to learn the error of making everything available to everyone at minimal cost. They already let you use different racial suits, but at the cost of having to train them. Why do they not see the need then to have extra training for modules to allow you to mix suits and weapons? |
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