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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4754
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Posted - 2016.04.26 03:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
But this is CCP.
Now i could easily resub back to EVE, i enjoyed it, it is a social game but even so afk mining or just floating about was fun. There was always something do but the major drawback for me was always PVP, it was terrible frankly since it was a giant blobfest the vast majority of the time and finding a 1v1 without an OGB was next to impossible i found unless it was someone afk in a FW complex and this ruined null and FW to a point even though being in FW was fun.
But EVE is complete, you can dive in and have a vast number of options at your fingertips and play it.
DUST514 is not complete and got the plug pulled and now 6 years later Nova is announced, not with a fanfare but a whimper, Hilmar didn't look too impressed and in the same breath said that CCP would not be afraid to axe failing projects which is a red flag to me since we know that CCP were not happy with DUST and Nova is still a unlit project.
What i saw was labeled as a 'tech demo' to showcase the game at its core and how it is going back to its roots as an FPS to fix the basic mechanics which is all well and good but if other mechanics are missing or just outright bad then you end up like MGO3 with great mechanics but shite gameplay.
The demo was very basic, the map was small and no longer on a planet so that hinted at arena type maps and not open world which also means no vehicles or AV.
Players can quickly jump into a match but dev comments after stated that you can unlock more things for it the more you play that role, this is a bad decision and a dumbing down of the game and a forced restriction of the player choices. SP and skillbooks allow you to train up many skills which can improve your role even if you for a logi suit to be a slayer, look at EVE for direction again freedom to do what you want and how to do it.
32 roles? I had more with my vehicles and even so the 4 different factions which will have the 3 different suits split up twice really does mean 8 roles which will be the same for the 4 factions so it is not really 32 roles if Logi features 4 times.
Jump jets, talk about not learning from the myo problem where we currently have scouts jumping around like they are on the moon.
16v16 on PC for a supposedly MMO, we have had 16v16 on PS3 for 6 years where is the ambition? EVE has stupidly massive fleet fights, your novels and stories has massive fights in both space and ground so why not Nova?.
A roundtable was nonexistant, no other information relating to the game was released or even expanded upon, very vauge statements released to gaming websites in which i have heard before many times years ago when DUST was around in that the game is looking to do x and we want to do y.
I am a realist when it comes to any games these days, i know that EA will shaft you and that Ubisoft will rush something half finished and that CCP thinks big but fails to deliver unless it is EVE.
DUST has had years on an outdated platform which everyone knew it would not last, they achieved linking it to EVE but overall failed at what they wanted to accomplish and what the players wanted to do in the game. The game had good times and bad times but most of it was linked to various events outside the players control such as 'rouge wedding' or change in staff which means a change in ideas and vision along with other side projects eating away at the office like Valkyrie/Legion.
Nova is a second chance if it does not get scrapped that is but will it suffer from the same problems that DUST suffered from? Will the same mistakes keep being repeated? will CCP actually learn anything? but then it is on PC which brings new challenges such as stopping cheaters with aimbots aswell as the lag switchers and possible mod abusers if they allow mods.
End of the day i am taking everything CCP say with a big tanker full of salt until i see it actually implemented in the game.
I think this is CCP last shot, they know it and we know it and unless it is really profitable they will not be afraid to pull the plug this time instead of letting it limp on.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4756
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Posted - 2016.04.26 13:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Taking things with skepticism is fine, just dont be a bitter salty angry vet. It's annoying, and it certainly doesn't help anything. Just keep a level head, wait, and see what's to come. Trust me.
Doesn't help being a blind fanboy either, no criticism and they continue down the wrong road.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4756
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Posted - 2016.04.26 13:40:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
I am a realist when it comes to any games these days
You mean you're a pessimist in denial.
Realist since CCP has already shown what they can and cannot do with this game so i expect it to appear in the next one.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4757
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Posted - 2016.04.26 14:11:00 -
[4] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:
Hilmar has always given 0 **** about the whole FPS idea, that's nothing new. What means is we have to provide enough support to the project to show its worth investing in.
Yeah a 'tech demo' means it's bare bones, it show cases the engine and core gameplay as a form of proof of concept. The concept being a solid space shooter. Other mechanics physically haven't been implemented yet. Like the fact a single map was played with no between lobby or anything else.
Of course the demo was basic, it's a demo, that's what demos are. A lot of people complained that DUST maps were to big. You spent too much time traipsing across flat open terrain between modules and objectives.
As for open air, Rattati has already confirmed that planets will be back and Asteroid Stations and other places will be available when it makes thematic sense. As for vehicles, yes for the time being they are gone until they are happy with the pure FPS side.
As has been discussed to death, giving people complete control straight off the bat is a bad design choice for an FPS.
The idea is to ease players into a role before they start customising it. In DUST if you stack Shield extenders on a gallante you are going to die, a lot. If your new you won't understand why, you'll just assume the game is **** and leave. The same if you get in a Scout and put an Assault Rifle on it and charge headfirst into an objective.
By reducing the amount of initial choice, blame isn't placed on mechanics you are unaware, instead you blame yourself for being an inexperienced player, then you level up and get better and enjoy the game.
I'm sorry but that's a load of rubbish. 32 fittings is not 32 roles. Vehicles had at most 4 roles (Anti-Personnel, Anti-Vehicle, Mobile Spawn Point, Troop Transport) The point is that there are 3 weight classes, each with 2 base roles ( or 8 between them) each with 4 racial specialisations. Now in reality in terms of end of tree we are looking at one more class than we had.
Slightly different, in that one is equipment and not stackable, the other is.
Baby Steps
Welcome to Hilmar's attitude
The Division waves from Ubisofts Corner, Mass Effect from EA's.
CEO does not care so what does that say for the game? Nothing good
Complete control over a role is better than forcing you to play that role to get other things, that complete control could easily be limited in tutorials and be expanded upon.
32 fittings can easily be 32 roles, the amount i had which did something different was staggering, while even one module may have been different it would mean that i would have to play differently with that fit.
Jump jets are bad end of.
Baby steps was 6 years of DUST
As for the tech demo, yes bare bones but why not a bare bones for vehicles on an open world map? show that they are still there for the full MMO experience and possibly a simple video on SP and skills and possible future progression.
The division is ****, have you seen the end game? it does not exist because it gets to a point where you have enough health and recharge that you cannot kill them.
ME where the end of the game is DLC.
Great game examples proving my point.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4761
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Posted - 2016.04.26 15:32:00 -
[5] - Quote
Quote like a normal person ffs.
CEO is not impressed by his own product, forget about what i think of it or the general playerbase should the CEO have confidence in what they are producing above all else?
I guess you missed the part where i said tutorials.
I would list them but that was 3 years ago when vehicles were useful and i have alot more modules/skills/turrets/hulls etc.
Jump jets will get abused, anything with extra jumping gets abused.
DUST was 16v16 on PS3, on a more powerful system they still looking at 16v16 why not say that they would like to expand that, not even a hint just that 6v6 for testing then back to 16v16.
They did barebones for FPS infantry why not for vehicles, hell i would have been content with a simple video.
Just because the majority enjoy said games does not mean that they are good, the divisions lack of end game makes it like destiny and ME with its half an ending and then DLC content added on was a typical EA move, it would be like if konami released the cut 51mission as DLC for MGS.
There is very little to be happy with concerning Nova, the only real thing i can be happy with is that it is on PC which allows for infinte possibilities and looking at EVE which is a damn good game that i do at times wish i still played and just do wish that Nova is the FPS version of EVE with all the skills/modules/vehicles/suits/weapons etc which allows of absolute freedom at the solo and corp level.
Enjoying WOWs a hell of alot, WOT have not touched for a while, ETS2 for comfy moments, XCOM2 but need some key mods, XCOM EW for lolz, even old games like PES2010 and NHL08. I just find that new releases such as MGSV have been let downs and hype gets crushed hard.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4761
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Posted - 2016.04.26 16:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
WOT is different, everyone is in a tank and it does not cost to use it apart from repair and ammo, to progress in your logi suit would be far more efficent than me an a HAV and the rewards are the same yet if i get destroyed it cost me a far lot more. The system in DUST is fine as is because your SP can be placed where you want it to be and not where the game tells you or forces you.
I cannot remember 32 fits from 3 years ago.
Vehicles are an essential part of an MMO.
End game, what to do at the end after you max it out, in division it becomes sponge shooter.
ME still got screwed.
5th faction, if it is the jovians it will suck, they should never be played and it should always be the 4 main factions and possibly later on or even at the start the pirate factions aswell but never jove.
You mean before CCP dissapoint, i aint making the game.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4763
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Posted - 2016.04.26 20:15:00 -
[7] - Quote
Leither Yiltron wrote:Does anyone care about your opinion Takahiro?
Nah.
Whats ******* new?
Half the time i post for myself anyways.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4766
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Posted - 2016.04.26 22:24:00 -
[8] - Quote
Reign Omega wrote:Uhhh.. I read down to MGO3 and stopped. MGO3 was fun. The gameplay was fun, and it controlled well. The goofy japanese humor (plush toys etc) may not be my cup of tea, but the game was solid. Nobody played the dang thing but I had some great games with friends. Games are fun, start with fun. And also...not getting stuck on random ****.
MGO3 mechanics are perfectly fine but what is not fine is classes, poor lobby options, minimum modes, lag due to no way of being able to choose EU servers or even stop/remove johnny foriegner etc
I did sort of enjoy it but it wore off fast and now it still does suffer from the most basic of problems.
I found it to be a big step back in comparision to MGO2.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4768
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:01:00 -
[9] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:True Adamance wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
5th faction, if it is the jovians it will suck, they should never be played and it should always be the 4 main factions and possibly later on or even at the start the pirate factions aswell but never jove.
You know besides the Jove there are more or less half a dozen other factions who could throw their lot in.... still I haven't actually heard about this 5th faction yet. Could be a group like ORE (Outer Ring Excavations), The Upwell Consortium, The Society of Conscious Thought, The Servant Sisters of EVE, Mordu's Legion and those are without even listing the most recognisable pirate factions of the Serpentis, Guristas, Angel Cartel, Blood Raiders, and Sansha's Nation. I'd honestly say the first five are more likely for us however as far as I know the Upwell Consortium don't actually both with small scale technologies. Rattatai has been quoted as saying that the first 2 levels of the suit tree will be dealt with by some form of generic race. That doesn't necessarily mean a 5th faction but more concept art for a new heavy back up the rumor. I don't know why but everyone seems to be over looking CONCORD as the possible 5th faction. Not only are they a significant military power with great influence of High Sec space. It also makes a lot of sense thematically. Finally it sets up where at the very least high sec contracts cone from.
High sec contracts in general come from which ever agent is in the station.
The 5th faction come to think of it seems more of which corp will it be, we have 4 races with a 5th being unplayable which should stay that way.
But factions? Already in DUST you get lumped into a corp which really means very little unless they also add PVE down the line with the store, joining another corp really would not mean that much since most join player run corps.
Even pirate factions for the most part are buisnesses aswell, Mordu Legion hired mercs but then you have the blood raiders who are pirates to the letter aswell as being batshit crazy.
CONCORD cannot see it happening, on the one hand they are shady themselves but having mercs running about tearing **** up freely would sort of be against CONCORD.
If anything it could work more like FW, you pick your race and bloodline then are randomly put into a corp run by that race, after the various tutorials you can choose to stay, move into a player run corp which could be in null/FW/active wars in general or possibly CCP make various pirate factions/corps open to join but then what do you do in them espcially in corps such as ORE, pirates can pirate but Mordu is merc business.
Should just stick to how it is now when creating a character, worry about corps after.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4768
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Posted - 2016.04.27 17:10:00 -
[10] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:WOT is different, everyone is in a tank and it does not cost to use it apart from repair and ammo, to progress in your logi suit would be far more efficent than me an a HAV and the rewards are the same yet if i get destroyed it cost me a far lot more. It does not cost apart from repair and ammo. Neither does DUST if you don't die. So because everyone is in a Tank the mechanic by which you have to play a tank before you can unlock better fittings for said Tank is now acceptable?
But apparently that same common sense mechanic has no place in NOVA because . . . . . . .?The system in DUST is fine as is because your SP can be placed where you want it to be and not where the game tells you or forces you. The SP system is one of the biggest gripes new players have with DUST, it's confusing and unhelpful. The game doesn't advise you where to spend your SP, nor would it make sense to, but you can't stop someone specing into armor for a shield based suit.I cannot remember 32 fits from 3 years ago. Probably because you never consistently used all 32. And I'm only asking for their purpose, not each individual fitted module.Vehicles are an essential part of an MMO. No they are not.
Quote:An MMO, or massively multiplayer online game, is a game that thousands of participants can play simultaneously over the internet. Some MMO games offer voice chat, in which players can wear a headset and talk to other unseen players online.
Take for example, World of Warcraft, no vehicle combat there.
End game, what to do at the end after you max it out, Precisely, so what more content do you expect after you've maxed out the game?Division just becomes a Sponge Shooter Probably because you have poor gear. My Lvl 26 gear is still serving me pretty well after the Cap.ME still got screwed. Opinion, could have been a lot worse5th faction, if it is the jovians it will suck, they should never be played and it should always be the 4 main factions and possibly later on or even at the start the pirate factions aswell but never jove. Pirate and Sub factions would be further up the tree after the main race based on their allegiance. Or at least that is what I would expect.You mean before CCP dissapoint, i aint making the game. No because if Rattatai keeps on his current path, he's not gonna dissapoint most of us. Likely only you and your ilk.
WOW is a dungeon game, i think with magic and fairytale stuff in which you obtain the sword of great something, not sure how a tank will fit in.
Take EVE, end game can be various things, end game may not even exist depending on how you see it, always something to do and to learn. I never reached end game with EVE, i did high sec and still did PVE/mining/exploration. low sec was FW fun apart from OGB and null i hated and bored me.
Get higher, it gets to a point where it becomes real spongy but i find low levels full of sponge too, DUST ttk is generally okay but a headshot is a headshot.
Pirate and sub factions all work differently, mordu legion is mercs, blood raiders are pirates, one gets sent out on missions and the other drinks the blood of its victims i think.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4771
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Posted - 2016.04.27 22:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
WOW is a dungeon game, i think with magic and fairytale stuff in which you obtain the sword of great something, not sure how a tank will fit in.
of course a tank wouldn't fit, why do you always assume tanks? The point is WOW the most well known MMO possibly of all time has no vehicle combat of any kind. Short of perhaps a set piece with catapults.
A vehicle, or vehicle/mounted combat is not an integral part of an MMO, the only MMO that I can think of that has both foot solider and vehicle combat is star Trek, maybe Star Wars but I didn't play that.
Take EVE, end game can be various things, end game may not even exist depending on how you see it, always something to do and to learn. I never reached end game with EVE, i did high sec and still did PVE/mining/exploration. low sec was FW fun apart from OGB and null i hated and bored me.
So you got bored of Null Sec, where the majority of players say the real game lives? What was it that bored you?
Get higher, it gets to a point where it becomes real spongy but i find low levels full of sponge too, DUST ttk is generally okay but a headshot is a headshot.
As someone on the the division forums said, if you think end-game is just bullet sponges then you don't understand the point of an mmorpg
Pirate and sub factions all work differently, mordu legion is mercs, blood raiders are pirates, one gets sent out on missions and the other drinks the blood of its victims i think.
But that doesn't stop them
1) Having there own suits,
2) Having one of the 4 main factions be there race type.
Finally in regards to CONCORD not having solders run round blow stuff up. They have capsuleers do it. And pay them for the privilege. What doesn't make sense about Concord hiring a bunch of mercy to raid an illegal shipment of quake?
Because vehicles exist in DUST, Nova which is in the EVE universe without vehicles in a military setting where the lore itself has ground fights and armored vehicles would not make sense. WOW has no vehicles, it is swords and magic because that is the setting.
Null sec has no end game tied to it, it maybe the logical progression where you move from the safety of high to the risky area of low and then to no holds bar null but itself requires generally a large enough corp to be in/alliance in which it can defend itself/take part in defending areas for itself/alliance but it ends up being blob warfare in which a fight may break out but only if enough numbers are massed to win. This means 3hrs for a fleet to setup in which you are not guaranteed a fight because either you or the enemy does not have the numbers to make sure its a win or it gets that late in general that i fall asleep before anything happens. Also null is not for the small fry, DUST a small organized corp with some talanted players can defend there district, in EVE you get blobbed and whacked hard that you need an alliance to back you up with deep pockets.
It bored me, compared to FW or low sec in general in which feels more risky and you can get fights at a moments notice, null may have changed since i last played it but all i see is that you need lots of numbers and deep wallets.
While it may be nice to be a massive sponge and deal millions of damage unless its PVE does that not ruin the point of PVP if everyone is a massive sponge?
Suits is simple, but would they just be in the game for another group to join? plus no leadership exactly unless your corp can also join the faction like it is in EVE with FW and you do things.
CONCORD generally blows **** up, unless it is going to brought into the game in the style of NATO except without blue helmets and generally being useless maybe it will work but players like to do bad things and will Nova have standings?
CONCORD would have to be added later, more of a career option.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4773
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Posted - 2016.04.28 12:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
MMOFPS is how i see it and considering lore of EVE contains vehicles i would like to see vehicles and everything else.
Null sec is not what you make it because you need enough ISK/backing to be able to do it but the end game is what you make it thus if you want to be a market trader then set up shop in Jita but null is not needed. Nova end game will follow the same route as EVE i expect, null sec where corps fight it out over planets i hope with alliances in EVE backing them maybe even transporting various items needed but even then PVE i hope will be in, FW again and just general matches in high/low and NPC null so if you want you could never touch null but fight for FW but even then getting into null i assume will be easier than in EVE. But if Nova null is the same as EVE then will that punish smaller corps without the big money or alliances? that is the main problem of null, it is not end game but to be there requires alot, so much that a fair amount see it as end game anyways.
There is massive sponges and then there is the headshot is a headshot, in EVE it is a gigantic ship which is 10km long and has armor and shields aswell as various defensive modules which ends up in massive fights which take hours or days in some extreme cases, i myself prefer smaller gang fights in EVE which generally is low sec and FW, in FPS while this can be fun since MAG the more the merrier and MAG TTK was kinda low when compared to DUST. While Nova is an FPS we have suits with armor and shields and various other things i hope which prolong life thus prolong TTK a bit.
Tactics are great, skill is required to pull them off or break them.
Why would everyone start as CONCORD? You pick your race and bloodline and get put into an NPC corp for which ever race you are apart of, every race generally trains up there own soliders even to a basic level, thus you have the skills to move on if you wish.
Standings are apart of EVE espcially for the immortal players, so why is it not the same for the clones of Nova?
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4789
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Posted - 2016.04.29 12:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
Monkey MAC wrote:AldnoahZero wrote:Clotheshanger Abortion wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
The demo was very basic, the map was small and no longer on a planet so that hinted at arena type maps and not open world which also means no vehicles or AV.
32 roles? I had more with my vehicles
Found the tanker, guys! Would you like some more salt in your Kool Aid? What's wrong with pilots? For the most part tankers and pilots were actually alright. However Taki and a friend of his ruined the reputation of other tankers with there attitudes. Pretty much every other forum goer has had a "debate" with one of those two over vehicle balance and it pretty much the same way. Logical Argument (T&S) - Logical Argument in Return X4 Name Calling (T&S) Bragging (T&S) Declaration of pure Stupidity (T&S) example: " It should take 5 people in a Co-ordinated effort to take down my tank with just me in it" Logical Argument outlining the stupidity of the previous statement. More Name Calling, Bragging and General stupidity. (T&S) "You just want to blow tanks with a Pistol" (T&S) And so ad-infitum
And i can replace all that with AV being stupid aswell, the sword goes both ways and that includes you monkey and breakin and quite a few more since AV outnumbered pilots 10 to 1 and as more pilots left less voices to be heard against the AV hordes.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4791
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Posted - 2016.04.29 13:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ripley Riley wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:And i can replace all that with AV being stupid aswell, the sword goes both ways and that includes you monkey and breakin and quite a few more since AV outnumbered pilots 10 to 1 and as more pilots left less voices to be heard against the AV hordes. Isn't that how you like it though... needing an entire team to bring down one pilot? 
It never took an entire team to take out pilots in PC, all you cared about was balance in pubs which is the wrong way to balance things.
Vehicles took each other out in PC plenty of times, organized AV players did the same all the time.
CCP balanced this game for pubs and that 1 scrub who kept losing to a HAV.
I cant help it that in pubs it may have took half the team to take me out, i was obv good at what i did and they were not but pubs is random matchmaking.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4793
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Posted - 2016.04.30 21:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Heimdallr69 wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:Ripley Riley wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:And i can replace all that with AV being stupid aswell, the sword goes both ways and that includes you monkey and breakin and quite a few more since AV outnumbered pilots 10 to 1 and as more pilots left less voices to be heard against the AV hordes. Isn't that how you like it though... needing an entire team to bring down one pilot? It never took an entire team to take out pilots in PC, all you cared about was balance in pubs which is the wrong way to balance things. Vehicles took each other out in PC plenty of times, organized AV players did the same all the time. CCP balanced this game for pubs and that 1 scrub who kept losing to a HAV. I cant help it that in pubs it may have took half the team to take me out, i was obv good at what i did and they were not but pubs is random matchmaking. Issue with that is 90% of the playerbase after 2014 just farmed or did pubs..so is it logical to cater to the 10%? Yes I pulled that percent out of my ass
Im fine with the figures you pulled out your ass, let me just wash them.
At one time PC was popular in a period of time where vehicles were in a vastly better place from all angles but still had issues such as armor being king, AV was still upto the task but also had issues such as SL being broken in general. But the more competitve players had something to for instead of stomping in pubs and also major problems are highlighted 1st but are then abused in pubs and it gets worse until fixed.
Problem is as certain changes took place PC died little by little, GTAV killed EON and after that most i knew just didn't bother.
Plus pubs had no MM, same with FW, people played for SP and stat padding and various changes in the game made things OP/UP and FOTM so with weak MM you had strong players vs new players and no punishment for those quitting to avoid a proper match up.
No PVE to muck about in either or even using high/low and null sec for the various meta levels which could have helped.
It is more logical to balance at the higher end where problems are really highlighted but at the lower end there needs to be systems to protect newer players from vets and put in proper MM.
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
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