DUST Search - Good morning spacefriends

Vrain Matari wrote:

Skihids wrote:

Vehicles did not fail in DUST because they weren't in right at the start. They failed because they had no job to do. They failed because they went in before the need for them arose, and that need was never created.

You didn't need the dropship because you never had to walk far enough that waiting for a pickup was worth your time.

You never NEEDED a tank because there was nothing a tank could do that infantry couldn't do. All anyone needed to do to win was kill infantry and hack points. Tanks couldn't even hack.

Since there was nothing to do but kill infantry vehciles defaulted to that role. Even the dropship got a gun glued to its nose and became the ADS. What do you get when you compete 1v1? You get balanced 1v1. Thus the great tank couldn't be any stronger than a single drop suit and it lost its essence. It simply became a lager, more expensive drop suit.

Agree with this 100%.

Want to add that, valid roles aside, CCP never developed a consistent vehicle philosophy: it was a hybrid bucket-of-ehp/dynamic tanking model for the vehicles, but basic bucket-of-ehp counter-attack modes for AV infantry. It was doomed to fail, frustrating both vehicle pilots and AV infantry because of the fundamental disconnect in what variables controlled engagements(i.e primarily dynamic variables for vehicles vs. primarily static variables for infantry).


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3648	Posted - 2016.04.24 04:26:00 - [1] - Quote As I've said so many times, vehicles need solid roles distinct from that of infantry. Those roles won't exist on the small maps CCP is starting out with. They will likely arrive when we see the large open maps and those look like they will come in when PC is added back. The worst thing CCP could do is to throw in vehciles with nothing for them to do except compete with suits for infantry kills. That is what made them impossible to balance in DUST. Once game play gets more sophisticated those vehicle roles will emerge and CCP can build vehciles to match the those roles. I suspect one of the first roles would be for a proper dropship to ferry troops across the large maps of planetary conquest. Troop transport was easily handled by running and drop uplinks in small DUST maps, killing the main role of the dropship right out of the gate. That's why CCPBlam created the ADS. The need for a given vehicle MUST be in the game before the vehicle is implemented or we will repeat all the mistakes of DUST.
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3648	Posted - 2016.04.24 04:28:00 - [2] - Quote As an aside, why do we even need to chose a race? We all inhabit generic clones that don't have racial characteristics after all. Yes we can choose racial tech, but we aren't bound by one of those either.
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3648	Posted - 2016.04.24 04:41:00 - [3] - Quote james selim brownstein wrote: We need Mechs. What role does the mech fill that your powered suit and super weapons doesn't?
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3649	Posted - 2016.04.24 05:00:00 - [4] - Quote Vehicles did not fail in DUST because they weren't in right at the start. They failed because they had no job to do. They failed because they went in before the need for them arose, and that need was never created. You didn't need the dropship because you never had to walk far enough that waiting for a pickup was worth your time. You never NEEDED a tank because there was nothing a tank could do that infantry couldn't do. All anyone needed to do to win was kill infantry and hack points. Tanks couldn't even hack. Since there was nothing to do but kill infantry vehciles defaulted to that role. Even the dropship got a gun glued to its nose and became the ADS. What do you get when you compete 1v1? You get balanced 1v1. Thus the great tank couldn't be any stronger than a single drop suit and it lost its essence. It simply became a lager, more expensive drop suit.
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3650	Posted - 2016.04.24 05:11:00 - [5] - Quote DUST drop suits are one man tanks right now. CCP is going to have to come up with a special need to create a tank that carries the one man tanks inside. That tank will have to have balance factors like required multi-crew or have some other drawbacks to keep one side from spawning one for every player and using it as a force multiplier. It needs a specific role that it can be tailored to at the expense of something else. I can see true dropships that are fast and manuverable enough to avoid enemy fire, but don't have any effective offensive armament. Skilled pilots could insert troops or ferry them out of a captured facility to attack the next that is too far away to run to. Pilots would be a valued members of a PC Corp. The drawback is that pilots would probably not be needed for pubs, but I'd rather see vehicles have important and balanced roles than have them forced in where they have no clear use "just because".
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3653	Posted - 2016.04.24 14:48:00 - [6] - Quote What have we been complaining about in DUST for years now? The base gameplay mechanics! We ask, "What's the point of this EVE connection if I can't shoot? Why can't I step up onto that low curb in my heavy suit? Why am I still getting stuck on this damn hill???" So CCP says, "OK, we are learning from our mistakes in DUST and we will fix that in the next go-around. We will focus on game play as our first priority before doing anything else. We will start with small maps and few distractions so we can get it right." Then we freak out and assume that "start with" means "forever reduced to". If you've ever been on a large project you know you have to start somewhere. I think they are starting in a very good place. Get the core mechanics working butter smooth so they don't detract from the experience as you build it out. Yes they need to keep everything else in mind as they plan, but I haven't seen anything that indicates that they aren't.
Skihids Zumari Force Projection Caldari State 3655	Posted - 2016.04.24 15:14:00 - [7] - Quote Vrain Matari wrote: Skihids wrote: Vehicles did not fail in DUST because they weren't in right at the start. They failed because they had no job to do. They failed because they went in before the need for them arose, and that need was never created. You didn't need the dropship because you never had to walk far enough that waiting for a pickup was worth your time. You never NEEDED a tank because there was nothing a tank could do that infantry couldn't do. All anyone needed to do to win was kill infantry and hack points. Tanks couldn't even hack. Since there was nothing to do but kill infantry vehciles defaulted to that role. Even the dropship got a gun glued to its nose and became the ADS. What do you get when you compete 1v1? You get balanced 1v1. Thus the great tank couldn't be any stronger than a single drop suit and it lost its essence. It simply became a lager, more expensive drop suit. Agree with this 100%. Want to add that, valid roles aside, CCP never developed a consistent vehicle philosophy: it was a hybrid bucket-of-ehp/dynamic tanking model for the vehicles, but basic bucket-of-ehp counter-attack modes for AV infantry. It was doomed to fail, frustrating both vehicle pilots and AV infantry because of the fundamental disconnect in what variables controlled engagements(i.e primarily dynamic variables for vehicles vs. primarily static variables for infantry). That occurred in large part due to the lack of distinct roles. Vehicles were nothing but large suits that could carry other suits inside. What they needed was Rock/Paper/Scissors. Tanks can blow holes in facility walls so that troops can get inside. They are unsuited to hunting infantry, but they are good at taking out other tanks. If you separate the tank's role from the infantry role each can be powerful in their own right without having to directly compete. Direct competition in role sharing is the root cause of all the pain. That goes for infantry too. If a forge gun can blow a hole in a fortification wall you don't need a tank to do it.