DUST Search - Gameplay

xxwhitedevilxx M wrote:

byte modal wrote:

Either this or that, eh? You keep saying "trust me when I say..." But then you use silly extremes ignoring legit development practices to make your points.

Pull back for a moment. Do you actually think it's a straight copy/paste and done? Really? I didn't think so. So stop using that as your metric of labor relative to what you see. If you build a house on a broken foundation, there is nothing that you can put on top of it that will mask the fault. If the foundation is shot, you start over ...if you want to start over. Sure, you may have the blueprints from the original, but you're still going to build new walls, electrical, and plumbing. Too, if you're going through the trouble of making it new, why not make improvements? There goes your blueprint---at least in the form that it was originally.

Come on. You're painting extremes to justify your condescending views. Sure, from lessons learned your labor may be faster on a point-for-point rebuild, but you still have the labor of a reBUILD. All the while trying to fix mistakes from the previous iteration, and still PLANNING to make room for modular expansions where possible. Conceptualize the plan, design the infrastructure, then go ...all over again.

For all we know, this shell has been prepared for future improvements just waiting to be filled which is what may have eaten labor. That logic, however, does NOT mean the structure is void.

Hell, it may very well be empty and useless. My point is, I do not know. Neither do you. So enough already.

It blows my mind how eager people are to **** and moan over details they have only a fraction of second-hand access to, then jump to the most unreasonable conclusions. Your conclusions may turn out to be true! But at this point, you're just as likely to know by shaking an 8-ball.

The assets really are a copy/paste work. I could videoproof that for you if you want.

You usually make a high res asset, then retopology, UV Unwrap (basically "flatten" the asset in order to apply 2d textures), texturing and you're good to go. This, of course, takes time. But if you already have the textures done (which are also made from a high res texture and then resized) and the high res model, you "just" have to retopo the high res model and apply higher res textures. It is not as easy as I'm describing it for a beginner, but a professional can do it incredibly fast.

On the animations topic: those are Dust 514 animations. Clearly. Again, it can be easily copy/pasted if you still have the animation skeleton (which I presume they do, or they have incredibly good animators that can replicate Dust 514 animations).

Now, I'm sure (or at least I hope) it is not made in Blueprints (and btw I'm talking about Unreal Engine 4 Blueprints, which is a kind of visual scripting), but still, that demo is easily reachable in an unbelievable short amount of time in UE4. The "code" you guys talk about basically.

Please note that I'm not saying they did nothing the whole time. I'm just saying that, based on what we have seen, that demo can be done in a very short amount of time by a team of professionals.


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
byte modal 648	Posted - 2016.04.21 15:57:00 - [1] - Quote Either this or that, eh? You keep saying "trust me when I say..." But then you use silly extremes ignoring legit development practices to make your points. Pull back for a moment. Do you actually think it's a straight copy/paste and done? Really? I didn't think so. So stop using that as your metric of labor relative to what you see. If you build a house on a broken foundation, there is nothing that you can put on top of it that will mask the fault. If the foundation is shot, you start over ...if you want to start over. Sure, you may have the blueprints from the original, but you're still going to build new walls, electrical, and plumbing. Too, if you're going through the trouble of making it new, why not make improvements? There goes your blueprint---at least in the form that it was originally. Come on. You're painting extremes to justify your condescending views. Sure, from lessons learned your labor may be faster on a point-for-point rebuild, but you still have the labor of a reBUILD. All the while trying to fix mistakes from the previous iteration, and still PLANNING to make room for modular expansions where possible. Conceptualize the plan, design the infrastructure, then go ...all over again. For all we know, this shell has been prepared for future improvements just waiting to be filled which is what may have eaten labor. That logic, however, does NOT mean the structure is void. Hell, it may very well be empty and useless. My point is, I do not know. Neither do you. So enough already. It blows my mind how eager people are to ** and moan over details they have only a fraction** of second-hand access to, then jump to the most unreasonable conclusions. Your conclusions may turn out to be true! But at this point, you're just as likely to know by shaking an 8-ball. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 648	Posted - 2016.04.21 18:29:00 - [2] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: byte modal wrote: Either this or that, eh? You keep saying "trust me when I say..." But then you use silly extremes ignoring legit development practices to make your points. Pull back for a moment. Do you actually think it's a straight copy/paste and done? Really? I didn't think so. So stop using that as your metric of labor relative to what you see. If you build a house on a broken foundation, there is nothing that you can put on top of it that will mask the fault. If the foundation is shot, you start over ...if you want to start over. Sure, you may have the blueprints from the original, but you're still going to build new walls, electrical, and plumbing. Too, if you're going through the trouble of making it new, why not make improvements? There goes your blueprint---at least in the form that it was originally. Come on. You're painting extremes to justify your condescending views. Sure, from lessons learned your labor may be faster on a point-for-point rebuild, but you still have the labor of a reBUILD. All the while trying to fix mistakes from the previous iteration, and still PLANNING to make room for modular expansions where possible. Conceptualize the plan, design the infrastructure, then go ...all over again. For all we know, this shell has been prepared for future improvements just waiting to be filled which is what may have eaten labor. That logic, however, does NOT mean the structure is void. Hell, it may very well be empty and useless. My point is, I do not know. Neither do you. So enough already. It blows my mind how eager people are to ** and moan over details they have only a fraction** of second-hand access to, then jump to the most unreasonable conclusions. Your conclusions may turn out to be true! But at this point, you're just as likely to know by shaking an 8-ball. The assets really are a copy/paste work. I could videoproof that for you if you want. You usually make a high res asset, then retopology, UV Unwrap (basically "flatten" the asset in order to apply 2d textures), texturing and you're good to go. This, of course, takes time. But if you already have the textures done (which are also made from a high res texture and then resized) and the high res model, you "just" have to retopo the high res model and apply higher res textures. It is not as easy as I'm describing it for a beginner, but a professional can do it incredibly fast. On the animations topic: those are Dust 514 animations. Clearly. Again, it can be easily copy/pasted if you still have the animation skeleton (which I presume they do, or they have incredibly good animators that can replicate Dust 514 animations). Now, I'm sure (or at least I hope) it is not made in Blueprints (and btw I'm talking about Unreal Engine 4 Blueprints, which is a kind of visual scripting), but still, that demo is easily reachable in an unbelievable short amount of time in UE4. The "code" you guys talk about basically. Please note that I'm not saying they did nothing the whole time. I'm just saying that, based on what we have seen, that demo can be done in a very short amount of time by a team of professionals. Well, my reference to blueprints was only in line with my house analogy. No, I did not mean Unreal development. Also, I do not work in game development so I admit I'm rather ignorant. I'm in graphic design, but have a hand in 3d modelling and desktop/mobile app development. So take my views in that context. I did not mean assets as in model libraries and textures. I can assume those can be recycled. Where I work, we have had to completely rebuild online applications, interface front-end, database, etc., digging through old horrible code to decipher how the hell anyone got this PoS to work in the first place in order to recreate, with more efficient coding, the functions our client had become accustomed to. Simply because it was easier to trash it than to deal with continually patching the convoluted crap they left us with. Maybe it took the previous team 2 years from scratch, but it only took us maybe 6 months to get back up to speed (just for example, here). That was still a long time. For someone to come in after-the-fact or during and say, "Why is this taking so long? It's just a copy and paste!" ---which my boss constantly does---is a bit insulting. Again, I'm not a developer. I am a designer. But even in my world of developing a handbook, when a client wants to modify a graphic from 1/4 page to 1/2 page, that in and of itself is relatively easy. The problem comes when doing so shifts the 2-5 paragraphs to the next page of a 120-page document, and I'm on page 12. The cascade effect takes place and every page thereafter requires adjustments for this one seemingly easy change. Someone always complains that it's taking too long out of ignorance, because it's so much easier to forget the details and disruptions created by a change when they are not making the change themselves to be aware of it all. Hey, I'm just offering perspective. I'm learning here too: game development requires no code. copy already-made assets without modifications and you have a fully functional reproduction in a completely new engine, and gone are all the bugs and frustrations from the previous. Got it. I don't know wtf they've done. I'm barely reading the forums atm due to being at work. I just don't know. I am, however, getting frustrated by all the hate and whining I have been able to read for when I can. Reactions seem short-sited and assuming ...to say the least. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 649	Posted - 2016.04.21 20:43:00 - [3] - Quote xxwhitedevilxx M wrote: Edit: And in fact in an article they said that they have the foundations for other mechanics in place, but they wanted to make a demo of the feeling of the game. And that is really my primary point. I am not saying coding is an impossible task. Nor do I think anyone defending the demo is saying such things. I do believe that most of the posts I'm seeing here as backlash in the forums are taking the exact opposite by suggesting it's nothing to do. 10 minutes and done. I can copy and paste faster... etc., etc. All I'm trying to point out is that there are clearly more elements involved than pasting assets in a game engine that are completely, if not deliberately, overlooked to exaggerate the problem in order to feel justified in complaining to begin with. There are mechanics at play that we cannot witness via this one demo. Simple. Sure, there are potential problems on NOVA. I'm not disagreeing on that point; but it is utterly childish to kick and scream at a worst-case scenario (as if we know) when we don't have enough evidence for ANY scenario other than what we have seen of a few minutes of gameplay. What? My PC isn't working because the power cable is unplugged? Well hell. I guess I have to build a new tower.... FFS nothing ever works around here... It's just a difference of logic. People are eager to b!tch, and it's easier to ignore the obvious to be able to do so. Case in point: the article you referenced suggests more than what the posts are allowing into the equation. Stop cherry picking the argument points (whoever). Go with the flow and see what comes. It's a proof of concept. That's like judging a movie by watching one daily. I would bet money had they shown more, or less, the reactions would have been just the same. Just my .02 ISK. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 650	Posted - 2016.04.21 21:02:00 - [4] - Quote Alena Asakura wrote: Nirwanda Vaughns wrote: the way DUST operated out of matches was a very great game. its what set it apart from your bog standard shooter, things liek the merc quarters, the customization, the fitting screen ect and the way the skill progression worked. all of it was very good and made it interesting. Was nice to see the covenant caldari assault looking suit though in one of the videos. I'm hoping as time moves on we get bigger teams and maps plus various scenarios to play out with perhaps even outdoor maps liek in legion demo. dust as a standalone shooter not connected to EVE would have proably worked better. it just needed better graphics and stability You're hoping as time moves on.... That's really the problem, though, isn't it? By the time this becomes what it should be, most of the current players will have moved on. By pulling the plug on Dust when they did, rather than porting it to PS4, and way before the new version is ready for PC, CCP have basicly stopped us dead in the water. So pull the plug? Wait longer for a legit BETA stage complete with all the MMO, economy, and single-player features we dream of before showing the world so that noone gets bored in-game waiting for more content? That won't **** anyone off. or Put out a staged release hoping to make a compromise between giving earlier access to the community instead of waiting another year or more between DUST and NOVA, and allowing progressive updates/expansions/whatever down the road that would otherwise halt current development indefinitely? To me, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't with this community. Pulling the plug seems the only real option if no one is willing to accept either of the others. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 650	Posted - 2016.04.22 01:00:00 - [5] - Quote ^ferk yeah! kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 652	Posted - 2016.04.22 13:50:00 - [6] - Quote Mobius Wyvern wrote: Everyone in this thread is dumb because that was a deliberately small-scale tech demo set up so people could just walk up and play it. There are now several articles up online with Rattati explaining how he wants to make the gameplay fun by itself and then move on from there. Stop rumor mongering. only bumping this to quote these few, yet powerful words of common sense and practical reasoning. also: Good morning, and long live the artist formerly known as the artist formerly known as Prince. R.I.P. Are ya ready? "aaaaaaah!!!! P**** con-TRO-OHL!!!! OOO-oooh!!!!" <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 652	Posted - 2016.04.22 15:01:00 - [7] - Quote Monkey MAC wrote: Mobius Wyvern wrote: Everyone in this thread is dumb because that was a deliberately small-scale tech demo set up so people could just walk up and play it. There are now several articles up online with Rattati explaining how he wants to make the gameplay fun by itself and then move on from there. Stop rumor mongering. While I agree we probably over-reacted, as per usual fan base behaviour, it's a bit of a failure on CCP's part again. The announcement consisted of the CEO, who clearly doesn't give a flying ** about the FPS in new eden dream, saying "yeah we are working on something" followed by a "tech demo", no keynote or announcement. The only information we've gotten regarding NOVA has come through 3rd Party Sources. Hell Project Discovery, a ing minigame has been given more exposure at fanfest with a slot in the presentation theatre and a round-table. Why wasn't this fine for Nova? We got an announcement for Legion, and the community went ape sh!t. We don't get an announcement for development of a concept** (when it has been admitted that they didn't think they would even be able to have a tech demo by FF to show anything to begin with), and the community went ape sh!t. Sounds like it was an unintended bonus that they were able to throw in last minute. Sounds like the community can't be pleased by anything. Sounds like CCP can't win for losing. Sounds like a lot of screeching kids in need of momma's milk when they're all much too old to know better. Or a good belt. Either way, they're still gonna cry. kitten bacon taco (nom)
byte modal 654	Posted - 2016.04.22 15:29:00 - [8] - Quote I would have thought the community would have learned by now how CCP works. No matter how many times I bash my skull against that brick wall, it ain't moving and I just get a headache from the effort. Now, I just go with the flow and see what comes. I suggest the same to you and others, but by all means keep at it. That wall ain't going nowhere if that's what you really want ;) <3 kitten bacon taco (nom)