DUST Search - Re-thinking player progression for EVE:FPS

Lex DOCIEL wrote:

If I am fond of the idea of specialization, and if you propose a nice alternative for the current progression system, it is however reducing drastically the interested of grinding skill points.

First of all, tactical change of a suit, if the idea is seductive, would be difficult to make playable on the battlefield:
-1 primary weap
+1 secondary weap
+grenades
+more than one equipment most of the time
+half a dozen modules

You have no time to rethink which will do what on the battlefield. You swap in two clicks for the dropsuit you conceive beforehand for a particular type of situation, and you don't think twice.

Second, all dusters love the 5-tier system of progression AND the passive bonus related to those tiers. Why?
-Because this is indeed what make the difference between the noob and the vet. (for the braggers)
-Because, it makes the difference between the troll player and the guy who knows what he is doing. (for the play-to-win)
-Because, it makes the difference between a complete fit, and a sub-optimal incomplete one. (for the perfectionists)

The list can be long, but overall, I think we can agree that this fills a lot of desires.

However (third), I think your idea would be AWESOME when it comes to rigging a dropsuit. Rigging is basically a specialized modification of a dropsuit (or ship when it comes to EVE, as we never saw it in DUST), which boost an attribute while disregarding another one. Improving the related skill is simply decreasing the drawback. Having the possibility to have on-field adaptive rigs could be an interesting idea. A tactical switch allowing inverting the drawback between the two attributes.

Last but not least, I think that your skill system could be use too for officer version of weapon, introducing a new layer of specialized skills.

PS: really nice document, and good thinking.

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Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 533	Posted - 2016.02.15 06:46:00 - [1] - Quote https://docs.google.com/drawings/d/1Zq14JdRSe0moUsl9nCUBC4chqL2GqwLMylCL9mDa2Cc/edit?usp=sharing TL;DR - I propose a progression system that moves away from increasingly powerful tiers of skills and gear over into increasingly specialized tiers of skills and gear. Something is killing new player retention.
Lex DOCIEL Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 141	Posted - 2016.02.15 09:39:00 - [2] - Quote If I am fond of the idea of specialization, and if you propose a nice alternative for the current progression system, it is however reducing drastically the interested of grinding skill points. First of all, tactical change of a suit, if the idea is seductive, would be difficult to make playable on the battlefield: -1 primary weap +1 secondary weap +grenades +more than one equipment most of the time +half a dozen modules You have no time to rethink which will do what on the battlefield. You swap in two clicks for the dropsuit you conceive beforehand for a particular type of situation, and you don't think twice. Second, all dusters love the 5-tier system of progression AND the passive bonus related to those tiers. Why? -Because this is indeed what make the difference between the noob and the vet. (for the braggers) -Because, it makes the difference between the troll player and the guy who knows what he is doing. (for the play-to-win) -Because, it makes the difference between a complete fit, and a sub-optimal incomplete one. (for the perfectionists) The list can be long, but overall, I think we can agree that this fills a lot of desires. However (third), I think your idea would be AWESOME when it comes to rigging a dropsuit. Rigging is basically a specialized modification of a dropsuit (or ship when it comes to EVE, as we never saw it in DUST), which boost an attribute while disregarding another one. Improving the related skill is simply decreasing the drawback. Having the possibility to have on-field adaptive rigs could be an interesting idea. A tactical switch allowing inverting the drawback between the two attributes. Last but not least, I think that your skill system could be use too for officer version of weapon, introducing a new layer of specialized skills. PS: really nice document, and good thinking. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3	Posted - 2016.02.15 10:20:00 - [3] - Quote I sadly don't have time to read the doc =ƒÿò but I will say. The skill system in dust and EvE is still my favourite. However I strongly strongly request the next game makes it passive only. The active skill points introduced so many problems. I would just prefer the same passive system that EvE uses. Frankly it's a good time gate to make sure people understand what they are doing annddd more importantly means people spend more time playing than ******* about with skills. Sorry if this has nothing to do with your documents I just want to be part of convo /cry :p I am among the 1st of my kind, and i will never forget. no empire lasts forever and i have all the time in the world.
Derpty Derp Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2016.02.15 10:36:00 - [4] - Quote The current system works quite well, but only if everyone starts playing the game at the same time. What it needs is to let new players have a boost to catch up with the rest of the people playing... Or my personal favourite idea, let mercs steal sp from dead people... Stand over the body and effectively "hack" for a while, if they have skills you didn't have you get a single level of one skill at random and the dead guy loses one level form that skill. This would totally get people playing less of a "full ******" strategy adding some decent risk.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 534	Posted - 2016.02.15 10:41:00 - [5] - Quote Lex DOCIEL wrote: If I am fond of the idea of specialization, and if you propose a nice alternative for the current progression system, it is however reducing drastically the interested of grinding skill points. First of all, tactical change of a suit, if the idea is seductive, would be difficult to make playable on the battlefield: -1 primary weap +1 secondary weap +grenades +more than one equipment most of the time +half a dozen modules You have no time to rethink which will do what on the battlefield. You swap in two clicks for the dropsuit you conceive beforehand for a particular type of situation, and you don't think twice. Second, all dusters love the 5-tier system of progression AND the passive bonus related to those tiers. Why? -Because this is indeed what make the difference between the noob and the vet. (for the braggers) -Because, it makes the difference between the troll player and the guy who knows what he is doing. (for the play-to-win) -Because, it makes the difference between a complete fit, and a sub-optimal incomplete one. (for the perfectionists) The list can be long, but overall, I think we can agree that this fills a lot of desires. However (third), I think your idea would be AWESOME when it comes to rigging a dropsuit. Rigging is basically a specialized modification of a dropsuit (or ship when it comes to EVE, as we never saw it in DUST), which boost an attribute while disregarding another one. Improving the related skill is simply decreasing the drawback. Having the possibility to have on-field adaptive rigs could be an interesting idea. A tactical switch allowing inverting the drawback between the two attributes. Last but not least, I think that your skill system could be use too for officer version of weapon, introducing a new layer of specialized skills. PS: really nice document, and good thinking. I agree with your first point. An alternative for the Tier 3 would be even further specialized modules that push the bonused/penalized balance. Using the Shield Extender example again the Tier 3 Restrained would be +50HP, +4dB and the Layered would be +150HP, +12dB. Ed: But for the swapping of specialization of the Tier 3 stuff, I was imagining a radial menu. Don't know if you've played CS:GO but after a bit of practice you can set up your whole loadout in a couple of seconds. I do not agree with your second point, in fact it's exactly the kind of thing I'm trying to eliminate. Why should the noob be happy to see a system that actively penalizes their performance just so the vets can brag? What if the noob is also a perfectionist and wants to come up with a fairly optimal fit but instead they're stuck in STD gear with half the HP of a vet? These kinds of things have no place in a PvP game. The rigging thing is true. I don't like to think about officer stuff because they were the pinnacle of the "Hey lets just give the vets stupidly high stat modifiers and screw the consequences" attitude. Something is killing new player retention.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 534	Posted - 2016.02.15 10:42:00 - [6] - Quote Derpty Derp wrote: The current system works quite well, but only if everyone starts playing the game at the same time. And because of this it will never work well. Something is killing new player retention.
Lex DOCIEL Mikramurka Shock Troop Minmatar Republic 142	Posted - 2016.02.15 11:14:00 - [7] - Quote Guys, don't misunderstand the subject. We are talking about a new skill system / RPG progression. If you are looking for helping new players go against vets, you only have one option: repair the match making. Which cannot be repaired at the moment, as the player base is too low to make it work at all. Good match making, with a large enough player-base, means new players VS new players, and vets VS vets. In this regard, modifying the skill system to help new players catch up with vets become irrelevant. Proud player of the most strategic and addictive massively-multiplayer FPS in the world.
Shaun Iwairo Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd. 534	Posted - 2016.02.15 11:24:00 - [8] - Quote Lex DOCIEL wrote: Guys, don't misunderstand the subject. We are talking about a new skill system / RPG progression. If you are looking for helping new players go against vets, you only have one option: repair the match making. I beg to differ. I fact I've presented an option in a nice easy to read google doc. Lex DOCIEL wrote: Which cannot be repaired at the moment, as the player base is too low to make it work at all. Good match making, with a large enough player-base, means new players VS new players, and vets VS vets. In this regard, modifying the skill system to help new players catch up with vets become irrelevant. Good matchmaking needs a large playerbase, yes. Good matchmaking in a game where you've got massive differences in the HP/DPS/EWAR/etc of the noobs and vets and everyone in between? That requires an impossibly huge playerbase. How do you grow to that playerbase when you can only attract the most masochistic of new players? Something is killing new player retention.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 22	Posted - 2016.02.15 20:11:00 - [9] - Quote I'm quite set on a system that only has Tier I and Tier II Dropsuits, Modules, Weapons. Just a simple two tiered system in which Tier I options act as gate ways into into different kinds of weapons as roles for low SP and low ISK investments while Tier II is the logical progression/development of your choice of Tier I equipment and weapons on a dropsuit with specific bonuses, modular weapon, etc. Tier III in dust just seems.... kinda pointless but a good system proposal could make it work. Waves that dye the land gold. Blessed breath to nurture life in a land of wheat. A path the Sef descend drawn in ash.
Medic 1879 Forsaken Immortals 2	Posted - 2016.02.15 20:19:00 - [10] - Quote Could do it like EVE with passive skills only and maybe if it was popular enough to warrant the size (or if it had PVE too like EVE) set up a system using sec status make high sec the sort of noob area (low meta suits only or just PVE) low sec (PVP where higher meta levels are allowed and tough PVE) and Nul sec (any meta level goes and ridiculously hard PVE sites with the possibility of another player/players invading your PVE site (ambitious would have to be open and not lobby based)) No idea about WH space though, maybe stupidly insane difficulty PVE for huge rewards for EVE and Dust 2.0 toons with the ground troops acting as a way to speed up/make easier the eve guys jobs. Huge rewards would be for the risk of living in a WH and the supply line difficulties. Lead Diplomat for Forsaken Immortals.

LOL KILLZ LulKlz 635	Posted - 2016.02.15 21:00:00 - [11] - Quote steadyhand amarr wrote: I sadly don't have time to read the doc =ƒÿò but I will say. The skill system in dust and EvE is still my favourite. However I strongly strongly request the next game makes it passive only. The active skill points introduced so many problems. I would just prefer the same passive system that EvE uses. Frankly it's a good time gate to make sure people understand what they are doing annddd more importantly means people spend more time playing than ******* about with skills. Sorry if this has nothing to do with your documents I just want to be part of convo /cry :p But what about the people that pick up the game a year or two after launch? Active SP was a God send. Keep it HMG is my first love SR my Sancha
steadyhand amarr shadows of 514 3	Posted - 2016.02.17 19:51:00 - [12] - Quote No people who.play a lot will always stay ahead active SP made the problem way way worse. People who start before others will always have an advantage it is far more logical to ensure the game is built in such way that new players can fill meaningful rolls while they skill into other things. In EvE skills allow you to do more things they dont make you any better at such thing after a certain point. Level 5 mining is the same for everyone etc Example a 2 year vet trains a new skill that takes him 5 days. A new player also picks thst skill and starts training it after 5 days. The 2 year has no advantage over the newb other than he his more experienced in the game. I typed this on a phone I hope it made sense I am among the 1st of my kind, and i will never forget. no empire lasts forever and i have all the time in the world.
Maken Tosch DUST University Ivy League 13	Posted - 2016.02.17 23:03:00 - [13] - Quote Let's make a few things clear here. 1. Eve Online's skill point system is obviously passive and there are clearly huge gaps between veterans and newbies in terms of SP at the moment. However, since CCP implemented Skill Injectors and Extractors into Eve, new players are now able to inject a lot of skill points into their characters in a short amount of time. At first this seems unfair for a veteran, but when you look closely you will see that those skill injectors can only come from veteran players who used AUR Extractors to extract wasted skill points from their own heads who then sell them for ISK to the new players. There is not a single skill injector that comes from any NPC source. It's purely sourced from veterans. The only reason so many new players can now shorten the SP gap with veterans is because the veterans were the ones that facilitated the process. But don't forget that there are certain limits to the injectors. If CCP were to implement something like this into the New Eden FPS for PC and are generous enough convert our Dust SP into unallocated and let us keep it for the new game then we can see a huge chance for the game to be able to retain new players who weren't around in Dust who joined in the new game. But if CCP is not able to implement skill extractors/injectors like in Eve into the new game, then I severely doubt that we will keep our current lifetime SP from Dust which bring me to the next thing to clear up. Of course, SP never equals actual skill in Eve Online. If a new player and a veteran player, both with almost equal lifetime SP because of the injectors for the new player, were to meet up in the same ships with the same fittings, the new player will likely lose because the veteran built up a lot of experience handling the ship and its modules. There has already been one case where a new player bought a new character last year with ISK gained from selling PLEX which was purchased from CCP with cash, and the character that was bought had a Titan ship on it. But the new player didn't know SQUAT on even the most basic rules of handling a Titan. Needless to say, about $2,000 went down the drain when a swarm of low-sec pirates spotted the player in the Titan. 2. JUST BECAUSE you want it to be fair to new players in the new game is the WRONG REASON to want to request resetting everyone's SP to the starter SP as if anyone is a new player. It's pretty obvious why. Everyone who logs in on the first day will be super veterans 5-10 years from now and we will still have new players coming in. The SP gap between new players and veterans will always exist in the New Eden universe. Eve Online still sees new players coming in after 12 years of operation. If you are looking for a legitimate reason to reset everyone to the starter SP, you don't need to look any further the fact that the skill progression system in the New Eden FPS for PC will very likely be very different from what we have now in Dust. The cost of SP per skill level might become different. Skill book multipliers might become different. The ISK cost of skill books alone might become different. How much SP we acquire and how we acquire it in the game might become different. Our dropsuits, vehicles, weapons, and modules might become different. The lifetime skill points we have now in Dust was built specifically for Dust 514's current skill tree. Let's also not forget that more and more of our current SP still comes from Dust's Daily Mission rewards, Personal Warbarge subsystem, and Daily Login SP. Just the Daily Login and Personal Warbarge alone can get my alt (which I don't use to fight) up to speed with SP. And since we don't know how SP gains and costs will be in the new game, we might as well start over. That would be the only reason to reset everyone. Eve Online Invite https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=ed64524f-15ca-4997-ab92-eaae0af74b7f&action=buddy
Monkey MAC Rough Riders.. 3	Posted - 2016.02.17 23:42:00 - [14] - Quote I agree and disagree at the same time. The suit and weapon progression should go for more specialized. However experience progression should stay as it is. The problem with the current DUST system is that you unlock BETTER gear as your innate stats get better. The result is you end piling the bonuses on for the far end. They call me the Monkey - I like to jump off sh** and piss RE's all over your tank! Monkey Mac - Forum Warrior Lvl 3


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