DUST Search - Can DUST Get a CSM and/or have the right to Vote?

John Surratt wrote:

Dao Ferret wrote:

Thanks for the link. I skimmed it a bit (probably plan on reading it more in depth later).
There are a few major issues (I think) that would come into conflict between the CSM and DUST, mostly in the Candidate and Voting eligibility (which I know we touched on in the previous thread). Outside of that, seems like a well written and thought out Whitepaper.

I agree with CCP though. First launch the game and get it rolling. Till there is a game, and a community behind it, CSM is overkill (yeah, I know we all think/hope/believe there will be a community, but until that happens ...).

Until we see how they interact, I would suspect that a Bicameral body with joint sessions (full or subcommittee) covering interaction (when/if thats needed) would probably be the best way to represent their constituency. Either way there is going to be concern that one side or the other isn't being represented (although with separate houses you are practically guaranteeing a certain level of distrust among some of the constituency).

That is all much more complicated than I imagine it currently is. From a "simplicity" perspective. A certain number of Representatives specifically representing DUST would probably suffice, but we'd have to determine their election/eligibility requirements, and integrate them into the CSM process, something that doesn't REALLY need to start until the game has been around for a bit.

Sorry ... think too much. Will stop using big words now. Feel nap calling.

Edit: ATL is a lovely place, and some of those Vampire players are rather cute. ... don't knock em till you've seen em. Blink

Does that mean I might be able to run into some of the CCP people @ DragonCon this year?

I was spitballing in the dark, just based off what i've read/heard/watched.

That white paper was the subject of some debate at the recent summit.

Distrust between two houses would be very EVE, more likely there will be seats. I could see DUST CSM "alts" eventually to start who can sit in on the meeting via interwebs like that alts do now.

CCP ATL (White Wolf) has been at Dragoncon for years. Some of the ATL WoD people worked on EVE stuff after the Jita riots/Monoclegate but they are likely deep into WoD stuffs again. Have to check Dragoncon's website.

Nothing against attractive women (and there are alot @Dragoncon), just LARPers. Especially when hey are outside your door a 4am.

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[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:08:00 - [1] - Quote For those who do not know what I'm talking about, get in the know and click HERE Can a game of FPS player collectively organize enough to have its own CSM? If not: Can or should a DUST Merc have the right to Vote on this coming election? Your thoughts and would you run? TCD ZionShad Other Post on this Topic HERE
[Veteran_Tony Calif] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:10:00 - [2] - Quote No. Pure duster here. EvE universe should be dealt with by EvE players until the Dust "community" actually becomes a community.
[Veteran_VOUYER] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:15:00 - [3] - Quote As Dust is a F2P model i don't see any need for a CSM at this time seeing as the CSM was created mostly as PR cleanup after the T20 incident with BoB back in the old days
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:17:00 - [4] - Quote No they should not be able to vote in the next election. As the above poster mentions, the dust community actually needs to become a community first off for one. In good time im sure Dust will have its own version of the CSM or some sort of representation. Also remember that all the current CSM members have been given beta keys and im pretty sure most of them have played at least a bit. So they are not clueless about Dust. But yeah, all in good time.
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:17:00 - [5] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: No. Pure duster here. EvE universe should be dealt with by EvE players until the Dust "community" actually becomes a community. Just a no point: What if an EVE player runs under a DUST driven docet this election? Dosen't matter if it be pro or con.
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:25:00 - [6] - Quote VOUYER wrote: As Dust is a F2P model i don't see any need for a CSM at this time seeing as the CSM was created mostly as PR cleanup after the T20 incident with BoB back in the old days CSM now works as a voice from the players to the DEVs and helps communicate game related problems and ideas. How would this be different for someone from DUST doing the same thing?
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:40:00 - [7] - Quote like others said when DUST actually becomes a community sure and we can appoint some REASONABLE ppl to discuss with the devs but that should only be about DUST mechanics and not EVE-DUST link, personally think EVE players should handle that side more or maybe a double session with the 2 CSMs but i dont see both sides agreeing too much especially if the DUST CSM is made up of only pure DUSTERS
[Veteran_Ryan Raithwall] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:48:00 - [8] - Quote Dust rules by Fang and Club. Want a council? Okey come over here.... clubs them :V
[Veteran_Cobalt Lavitz] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 15:53:00 - [9] - Quote Due to the integration with the EVE universe dust will hold inherent places on the CSM simply because the CSMs have a very high likely hood of playing dust. Additionally, powerblocks and charismatic leaders will continue to rise to the CSM because they will have legions of their own mercs in dust and eve. I don't see much point in worrying about the dust representation in New Eden, as they will most likely be able to run in the CSM elections much like any other New Eden resident.
[Veteran_Dao Ferret] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 16:26:00 - [10] - Quote Use the Search Luke ... https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=144817#post144817 Never mind ... didn't realize you'd added a link already.

[Veteran_Dao Ferret] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 16:38:00 - [11] - Quote Mavado V Noriega wrote: like others said when DUST actually becomes a community sure and we can appoint some REASONABLE ppl to discuss with the devs but that should only be about DUST mechanics and not EVE-DUST link, personally think EVE players should handle that side more or maybe a double session with the 2 CSMs but i dont see both sides agreeing too much especially if the DUST CSM is made up of only pure DUSTERS Hey, some of us pure Dusters (so far), can be pretty reasonable, and try to come up with workable ideas. Much as I hate to say it, I at least understand where the vocal EVE people are coming from. EVE is a VERY established universe, with a community that has been going strong for around a decade or so. They're worried about how DUST will fit into EVE. If it tanks, it could negatively effect the game they have a whole heck of a lot more invested in (purely in terms of time, let alone the fact that EVE actually has a monthly subscription). Most "pure Dusters" know very little about how EVE works, but a tremendous amount about FPSs in general. They want a good FPS. The EVE community wants a good Integrated game. Good FPS is secondary. This is where most of the conflict comes in. Personally I think: - the FPS people need to take a step back and realize that the EVE people just want the game to integrate into their world "right" (whatever right is). - the EVE people need to take a step back and realize that if DUST doesn't attract (and keep) enough players, then even if it has a loyal following, it might not be able to continue, and may therefore "set back" CCPs plans for furthering New Eden. - both sides need to remember that ultimately (I think) we all want this game to succeed. In order for it to do that, it has to be a good FPS (which I think it will be), with innovation and fun (which will come as we ramp up the assets we get to play with in our sandbox), and it ALSO has to integrate into the New Eden universe in order to exist. I'd suggest if/when we do get representation, either they should be DUST players who have at least played a few months of EVE to understand where THEY are coming from, or it should be a separate group (hopefully with some people who've played EVE who can help handle "joint sessions").
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 17:05:00 - [12] - Quote Dao Ferret wrote: [quote=Mavado V Noriega]like others said when DUST actually becomes a community sure and we can appoint some REASONABLE ppl to discuss with the devs but that should only be about DUST mechanics and not EVE-DUST link, personally think EVE players ........... Great Points Dao, we do first off need a solid FPS to both attract new players and then keep them, but with the three day down time we should as a community organize and plan for the future. Then we could someday have our own rep. I've posted the link to this blog about what day 1 might be like in another post and waiting to see if more is added to it. Check it out at HERE
[Veteran_John Surratt] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 17:18:00 - [13] - Quote Dao Ferret wrote: ] Hey, some of us pure Dusters (so far), can be pretty reasonable, and try to come up with workable ideas. Much as I hate to say it, I at least understand where the vocal EVE people are coming from. Only fly in the ointment is that there is work going on with the CSM White Paper which is basically the CSM's constution. . . so until that gets settled things are still up in the air as to the CSM itself. Now on the other hand, the people on the CSM right now have some pretty bright people on there. Seleene is a former Dev himself and Trebor own his owns business, wrote computer games way back in the day, and even chewed out by Steve Jobs one time. Funny story that. Involves chocolate chip cookies. Kelduum is the head of that glorious collection of carebears that is EVE Uni. The rest I don't know as well but the majority are null/FW/W-space players. CCP made noises about the possibility adding DUST representation, but I think they just want to get the game made first. Perhaps the CSM can stop begin a unicameral body and have two houses, or, DUST specific seats could be added. CCP was talking about DUST being there at the next Fanfest, which is the big ten year mark. I am guessing eventually it (New Eden) will all be under one big tent. The vampire players can go LARP in ATL.
[Veteran_Glen Duval] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 17:44:00 - [14] - Quote Tony Calif wrote: No. Pure duster here. EvE universe should be dealt with by EvE players until the Dust "community" actually becomes a community. I have to agree with this guy here. Even upon launch, the game will primarily consist of lone wolves who only want to pad their K/D scoreboard while mixed in with a limited number of Eve players who are only getting started with organizing high-sec corps like Eve-University and R-v-B Alliance. Until unity and control is achieved through the collective action of the many players, the CSM should be off limits to DUST. Once everything settles and the economy and sovereignty mechanics have been ironed out in Dust, then we should consider letting DUST be represented. However, given that the CSM can only be voted by Eve players with active "paying" subscriptions in order to avoid mitigate voter fraud, more than likely the person(s) to represent Dust will be an Eve player with a Dust account.
[Veteran_Dao Ferret] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 17:49:00 - [15] - Quote Thanks for the link. I skimmed it a bit (probably plan on reading it more in depth later). There are a few major issues (I think) that would come into conflict between the CSM and DUST, mostly in the Candidate and Voting eligibility (which I know we touched on in the previous thread). Outside of that, seems like a well written and thought out Whitepaper. I agree with CCP though. First launch the game and get it rolling. Till there is a game, and a community behind it, CSM is overkill (yeah, I know we all think/hope/believe there will be a community, but until that happens ...). Until we see how they interact, I would suspect that a Bicameral body with joint sessions (full or subcommittee) covering interaction (when/if thats needed) would probably be the best way to represent their constituency. Either way there is going to be concern that one side or the other isn't being represented (although with separate houses you are practically guaranteeing a certain level of distrust among some of the constituency). That is all much more complicated than I imagine it currently is. From a "simplicity" perspective. A certain number of Representatives specifically representing DUST would probably suffice, but we'd have to determine their election/eligibility requirements, and integrate them into the CSM process, something that doesn't REALLY need to start until the game has been around for a bit. Sorry ... think too much. Will stop using big words now. Feel nap calling. Edit: ATL is a lovely place, and some of those Vampire players are rather cute. ... don't knock em till you've seen em. Does that mean I might be able to run into some of the CCP people @ DragonCon this year?
[Veteran_Iron Wolf] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 18:13:00 - [16] - Quote maybe have the vote cost aurum and you get a special item for your trouble for voting.
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 19:04:00 - [17] - Quote Iron Wolf wrote: maybe have the vote cost aurum and you get a special item for your trouble for voting. I myself wouldn't mind this if and when this takes place. There will however be people who will not want to spend money but still want to vote. If it is like the AUR items where you can buy them and sell them to people for ISK then I would see that lessen the argument.
[Veteran_J Marshall] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 19:10:00 - [18] - Quote Heh. Used to be if you wanted the devs to hear something. You pinged one of them on IRC. CCPs customer relations went downhill after Kieron left and they locked down dev posting on the forums. From what I can tell DUST wont be nearly has political or meta gamed has eve so their is alot less complexity to be overseen. You just arent going to get the same emergent gameplay from a game like this. That said, and this being an early beta.. They could do several things to improve integration with eve and overall depth of the game. Lots more module options..really everything feels the same now with very little variation in what works well overall. Also, we should work twards being occupants of the eve-universe. If this is going to truly live up to CCP dreams for the project its got to be more than Eve players feeding their dust alts work. TL;DR: If this is going to work they had better do the integration right and make drop suits feel less cookie cutered...for starters.
[Veteran_Fivetimes Infinity] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 19:11:00 - [19] - Quote I'd be interested in seeing how the Dust community develops first. Will the majority of people in Dust involved with EVE corps in any serious way really have no EVE presence at all themselves? I think it is very likely that the broader Dust player base might not have an EVE account, but I think the people who really get involved with the mercenary company side of things may well either become EVE players or be existing EVE players who also play Dust on the side. In other words, there may be no need for a Dust CSM vote because the more involved Dust players may not be distinct from EVE players. The Dust community may well simply merge with the EVE community.
[Veteran_Dao Ferret] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 19:20:00 - [20] - Quote Zion Shad wrote: Iron Wolf wrote: maybe have the vote cost aurum and you get a special item for your trouble for voting. I myself wouldn't mind this if and when this takes place. There will however be people who will not want to spend money but still want to vote. If it is like the AUR items where you can buy them and sell them to people for ISK then I would see that lessen the argument. Thats an interesting idea, but I'd actually be against it. It would be too easy to set up fake accounts on the PS3, load them with money, and then stuff the ballot box. Granted you're still paying for the Vote, but I think a straight up "An account has to have been active for X days, and has to have purchased Y AUR in its lifetime" should be sufficient (I assume CCP keeps track of how much AUR any given account has purchased). Set the threshold low, but force the people who want to have a say in the future of the Free game, to at least pony up a little $$$ to help support it. Not sure if they should have to have bought X AUR every year (to put them on par with EVE players who pay/month, $$$ or PLEX), or if it should be a Lifetime credit (you bought $20 worth of AUR once, okay, you get to vote forever more), but they SHOULD have to put up something. If they don't want to support the FREE game with a SMALL real money, then I hope they enjoy it, and I certainly want them to play and be involved, but they shouldn't have a say in an elected body like this. Alternatively, if you want, and if DUST has its own elected body, separate from EVE, you could, I suppose reserve one or two seats for "free" players, while the rest of the body is elected from those who paid some AUR over the course of the game. This would let the free players still have a say and a voice, but would put the majority of the voice into the hands of those willing to help support the game.

[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 19:46:00 - [21] - Quote Dao Ferret wrote: Zion Shad wrote: Iron Wolf wrote: maybe have the vote cost aurum and you get a special item for your trouble for voting. I myself wouldn't mind this if and when this takes place. There will however be people who will not want to spend money but still want to vote. If it is like the AUR items where you can buy them and sell them to people for ISK then I would see that lessen the argument. Thats an interesting idea, but I'd actually be against it. It would be too easy to set up fake accounts on the PS3, load them with money, and then stuff the ballot box. Granted you're still paying for the Vote, but I think a straight up "An account has to have been active for X days, and has to have purchased Y AUR in its lifetime" should be sufficient (I assume CCP keeps track of how much AUR any given account has purchased). Agree
[Veteran_John Surratt] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 20:18:00 - [22] - Quote Dao Ferret wrote: Thanks for the link. I skimmed it a bit (probably plan on reading it more in depth later). There are a few major issues (I think) that would come into conflict between the CSM and DUST, mostly in the Candidate and Voting eligibility (which I know we touched on in the previous thread). Outside of that, seems like a well written and thought out Whitepaper. I agree with CCP though. First launch the game and get it rolling. Till there is a game, and a community behind it, CSM is overkill (yeah, I know we all think/hope/believe there will be a community, but until that happens ...). Until we see how they interact, I would suspect that a Bicameral body with joint sessions (full or subcommittee) covering interaction (when/if thats needed) would probably be the best way to represent their constituency. Either way there is going to be concern that one side or the other isn't being represented (although with separate houses you are practically guaranteeing a certain level of distrust among some of the constituency). That is all much more complicated than I imagine it currently is. From a "simplicity" perspective. A certain number of Representatives specifically representing DUST would probably suffice, but we'd have to determine their election/eligibility requirements, and integrate them into the CSM process, something that doesn't REALLY need to start until the game has been around for a bit. Sorry ... think too much. Will stop using big words now. Feel nap calling. Edit: ATL is a lovely place, and some of those Vampire players are rather cute. ... don't knock em till you've seen em. Does that mean I might be able to run into some of the CCP people @ DragonCon this year? I was spitballing in the dark, just based off what i've read/heard/watched. That white paper was the subject of some debate at the recent summit. Distrust between two houses would be very EVE, more likely there will be seats. I could see DUST CSM "alts" eventually to start who can sit in on the meeting via interwebs like that alts do now. CCP ATL (White Wolf) has been at Dragoncon for years. Some of the ATL WoD people worked on EVE stuff after the Jita riots/Monoclegate but they are likely deep into WoD stuffs again. Have to check Dragoncon's website. Nothing against attractive women (and there are alot @Dragoncon), just LARPers. Especially when hey are outside your door a 4am.
[Veteran_Dao Ferret] 0	Posted - 2012.06.24 20:27:00 - [23] - Quote John Surratt wrote: Dao Ferret wrote: Thanks for the link. I skimmed it a bit (probably plan on reading it more in depth later). There are a few major issues (I think) that would come into conflict between the CSM and DUST, mostly in the Candidate and Voting eligibility (which I know we touched on in the previous thread). Outside of that, seems like a well written and thought out Whitepaper. I agree with CCP though. First launch the game and get it rolling. Till there is a game, and a community behind it, CSM is overkill (yeah, I know we all think/hope/believe there will be a community, but until that happens ...). Until we see how they interact, I would suspect that a Bicameral body with joint sessions (full or subcommittee) covering interaction (when/if thats needed) would probably be the best way to represent their constituency. Either way there is going to be concern that one side or the other isn't being represented (although with separate houses you are practically guaranteeing a certain level of distrust among some of the constituency). That is all much more complicated than I imagine it currently is. From a "simplicity" perspective. A certain number of Representatives specifically representing DUST would probably suffice, but we'd have to determine their election/eligibility requirements, and integrate them into the CSM process, something that doesn't REALLY need to start until the game has been around for a bit. Sorry ... think too much. Will stop using big words now. Feel nap calling. Edit: ATL is a lovely place, and some of those Vampire players are rather cute. ... don't knock em till you've seen em. Does that mean I might be able to run into some of the CCP people @ DragonCon this year? I was spitballing in the dark, just based off what i've read/heard/watched. That white paper was the subject of some debate at the recent summit. Distrust between two houses would be very EVE, more likely there will be seats. I could see DUST CSM "alts" eventually to start who can sit in on the meeting via interwebs like that alts do now. CCP ATL (White Wolf) has been at Dragoncon for years. Some of the ATL WoD people worked on EVE stuff after the Jita riots/Monoclegate but they are likely deep into WoD stuffs again. Have to check Dragoncon's website. Nothing against attractive women (and there are alot @Dragoncon), just LARPers. Especially when hey are outside your door a 4am. Go to one of the overflow hotels. They tend to be quieter than the main ones. (not to derail the thread), but yeah, I can see where that would be a problem.
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.07.13 03:55:00 - [24] - Quote This post had a lot of smart replys, so I thought it would be a good time to bump
RolyatDerTeufel D3ath D3alers RISE of LEGION 1648	Posted - 2012.07.13 04:01:00 - [25] - Quote CSM just for dust? never. CSM grow in numbers for the new addition to the universe? Sure, i'd think they would deffinitly do it.
[Veteran_John Surratt] 0	Posted - 2012.07.13 05:09:00 - [26] - Quote This Sorry Roylat, couldn't resist. . .
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.07.13 06:23:00 - [27] - Quote John Surratt wrote: This Sorry Roylat, couldn't resist. . . Love it
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.07.13 06:25:00 - [28] - Quote RolyatDerTeufel wrote: CSM just for dust? never. CSM grow in numbers for the new addition to the universe? Sure, i'd think they would deffinitly do it. Would like to hear your thoughts father on this Rolyat. "Never" is a bold statement. Could you explain more
daniel philp Algintal Core Gallente Federation 158	Posted - 2012.07.13 06:43:00 - [29] - Quote I think some dust players should have a spot because were all sharing the same worlds and space. We need new fresh faces in this game to push it forward.
[Veteran_Zion Shad] 0	Posted - 2012.07.13 17:04:00 - [30] - Quote daniel philp wrote: I think some dust players should have a spot because were all sharing the same worlds and space. We need new fresh faces in this game to push it forward. Good point. DUST should be a topic we push on CSM candidates even if we will not have one of our own. This is because of the fact we will be sharing the space and we will have a large amount of players. I see it as if we organize enough as a whole community, then we could bring in our own rep to the table.



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