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Ice Royal Glantix
0.P.
306
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Posted - 2015.11.20 16:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
For all of you defending the tank side of the argument, I remind you that ISK cost should never be considered when balancing an item, simply due to the extreme wealth of many players.
However, for those of you who think that a single AVer should be able to destroy a tank, your just a little stupid.
The point of a tank is battlefield presence. By running a tank, compared to an assault/scout/sentinel, a player understands he is sacrificing kills. A tank simply cannot kill as much as a properly run slayer suit. If one person could easily destroy a tank, it totally ruins the idea of creating a large presence that must be dealt with.
If a tank is causing you trouble, you can always just hide from it. If a tank is causing your team trouble, your team can deal with it. If you could destroy a tank with just one person, then the tanker would be better off in an assault.
If you want to 1 v 1 a tank, use a tank. Sincerely, Glantix / Ice
"Solitude is not a burden; it is a gift, for independence allows us to realize our own potential."
Glantix / Ice
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Ice Royal Glantix
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K Damage LLC
315
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Posted - 2015.11.23 01:51:00 -
[2] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:-snip- It takes a very skilled tanker to pull off 30+ kill games, something your average assault can do in any game. A tank can easily be hid from and out maneuvered, making it hard to chase down what would be easy kills for any infantry member.
Therefore, and I am repeating my main argument at this point, a tank really shines in terms of battlefield presence, not killing ability. It can keep accessible points on lockdown and prevent infantry from crossing open fields. These tasks are what a tank should strive to accomplish, and you know what? All it takes is a single person to stop a tank from doing this. Yes, a single AVer probably won't be able to destroy the tank, but he/she will be able to scare off the tank, thus removing its immense presence.
This is no different than pushing a sniper off of objective overwatch or forcing an Amarr Logi to retreat, preventing him/her from from dropping links where they are needed. Both of these people will still be able to get kills, but they won't be able to do the job they were designed to do.
That is all I have to ramble on about. My apologies if I was rude/offensive in this post; that was not the intention.
Sincerely, Glantix / Ice
"Solitude is not a burden; it is a gift, for independence allows us to realize our own potential."
Glantix / Ice
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Ice Royal Glantix
CASSETTE 514
317
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Posted - 2015.11.23 16:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote: An average assault player working with a squad can and does frequently clear 20 kills, 30 perhaps as an average for some of the moderately better players, but a solo assault is not going to be averaging 30 kills in an normal game. It takes a very skilled assault to pull off 30+ kill games playing solo as well.
An average skill level solo assault is going to be bouncing widely between anywhere from 5-20 on average depending largely on who's on the other team, what gear the opposing team is running, gear the player is willing to risk running and the content of their own team (officer squads are a huge drain on kills for everyone else in the match, just as an example) which are numbers I also see average solo tankers frequently pulling.
I play either solo or as a duo with my girlfriend exclusively these days, I never run in a full squad. I've been playing Dust since Replication and she's been playing since open beta and we both run both assault classes and AV and have done so for years now. A good match for us is when we top 20 kills individually, but typically we end up only averaging between 10 and 20 kills per game with bad games dipping into the single digits and really good games veering near the 30 mark. It's completely subjective for a solo player, and unless a tanker is good at working as a proper support for a squad (extrordinarily rare to see) they are basically a solo player whether they are in a squad or not (this being the reason for the emphasis on the solo assault experience).
While you make a legitimate point on what the average assault can do, solo or not is an irrelevant fact: Some people do better solo, some do better squaded. Either way, your average blaster tank still isn't going to compare in kills, earning roughly 10 or so per match. (Maybe 20 if the enemy team doesn't use AV)
Baal Omniscient wrote: As for a solo AV player being able to scare off a tank - Yes, if they can get behind them and get enough alpha damage on them with AV grenades and whatever AV weapon they have on hand through their hardners (because a tank isn't going to sit there with it's hardners down). Then, if they can manage that while dodging enemy fire, that tank will rocket off into the distance nearly as fast as a top speed LAV only to return to the same spot 20 seconds later fully repped and aware that someone's pulled AV so they should probably farm kills in 3rd person for a while to keep an eye on their week spot.
One swarmer engaging from any angle is enough to make a non-reckless tanker move, unless the tanker is utilising a fit capable of shrugging off the damage, in which case they'll have to retreat anyway to allow their hardeners to recharge.
Baal Omniscient wrote: There is a very big balancing issue right now with making fits that are viable for tanks that aren't just triple hardened fortresses, I understand the issues there and don't deny that there is a big issue with that, however that doesn't excuse the abusability of the triple hardened tank. At MLT and basic levels it's not so bad, but once someone has fully specced into vehicle skills it can take a squad fully focused on AV just to scare off certain proto triple hardened tanks who know good routes and how to properly use cover.
Just a question: Who the hell uses triple hardened fits?
Baal Omniscient wrote: Now all of that said, a tanker working with a squad won't necessarily net more kills like an assault or heavy would in a squad. The tank has a very difficult obstical to overcome if it is ever to truly feel at home in Dust, and that is utility. It doesn't have enough seats to carry a squad, it's useless when stuck outside apart from parking on a hill and trying to fire into the doorways/windows, it requires modules to manage dispersion on it's main anti infantry turret, etc, etc, etc. The presence of a tank will keep people indoors, but forcing people into hiding in tight groups is counter productive as it forces your team to have to breach a room already fortified by a blob of enemies already forted up with hives and uplinks in most cases. This is not a role. The tank lacks a proper role. I personally preffered it much more back when I could 1v1 a tank and it was completely up in the air who would win because their rounds were deadly accurate and I had to duck in and out and between different available cover just to try and shoot at them. At least then they had a role, and that was being a deadly machine that could die relatively easily. People didn't all run indoors to avoid the tanks because they had faith that someone would be able to scare it away soon, whereas now no one expects anyone to do anything about them so they all GTFO of the way of the tank to try to save their own gear. Back then 4-6 shots and a tank would go down from my swarms, and 1-3 shots from their blaster and I was dead. Tanks weren't perfect, but they had options and they had an at least workable purpose.
Sorry if my response seems grouchy or rattled, unable to sleep and my brain is hating me for trying to post through the haze of exhaustion.
Suppression is a role, currently filled by tanks and to a certain extent commandos.
I'm actually in a rush at the moment, so I cannot type out a full response. Sorry about that. Sincerely, Glantix / Ice
"Solitude is not a burden; it is a gift, for independence allows us to realize our own potential."
Glantix / Ice
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Ice Royal Glantix
CASSETTE 514
319
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Posted - 2015.11.26 16:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:Sure, suppression can be a role that tanks, and commandos do, but commandos can be one shotted by snipers for staying in one area, while tanks can take several clips from weapons specifically designed to "kill" them. Designed to kill after a long period of constant fire.
Tanks are suppression; AV is counter suppression.
"Solitude is not a burden; it is a gift, for independence allows us to realize our own potential."
Glantix / Ice
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