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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
21
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Posted - 2015.11.06 16:12:00 -
[31] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:True Adamance wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote:It's a freakin tank , it should be strong to a certain extent . I cant believe people are still saying this, tanks in the real world are very vulnerable in the field to all sorts of things, we're talking getting one shotted from kilometers away by hand held munitions, even worse if you start bringing things like close air support, artillery, other tanks, and mobile launchers. Not to mention theres all sorts of non-lethal things you can do, from shitting up their ability to see with a molotov cocktail to ******* up their tracks and immobilizing them. Meanwhile DUST tanks roll around with zero fear of anything that isnt another tank or 3+ AV players with an entire game to hunt down a single tank thats just going to withdraw and snipe from the readline in one of the most asymetrical matchups in this game while the AV players' team loses because they are effectively down 3 players. Stop saying "its a freakin tank". Tanks arent invincible in the real world, the reason tanks are useful is because they are fast, mobile, and have a big ******* gun mounted on them, not because they are unkillable. That being said modern tanks too can fire and can annihilate whole infantry groups much more easily with a wide variety of projectiles and weapons systems from greater distances that most hand held anti vehicle weapons can achieve. Modern AV can one shot a tank. I'd love to be able to one shot those OP tankers for a while. Make PLC do 10,000 damage for a while? No? Don't ask for modern tanks unless you want modern AV.
It has the potential too certainly however various types of newly developed reactive Armour systems and the well known TROPHY system are designed to defend against such instances though they are of course no garuntee for the crews who inhabit tanks.
However it is worth noting that most weapons system that you are likely to reference are forms of guided rockets that detonate above the tank itself targeting the weaker armour. Morewover such HE weapons do not have the same penetrative power as the KEP (Kinetic Energy Penetrator) otherwise known as te APFSDS round (armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot).
In terms of the New Eden setting however I would argue that offensive and defensive technologies are in very close competition with weapons systems as powerful as they are still requiring numerous shots of successful penetrate and severely damage larger vehicles.
Sadly Dust 514 doesn't do many things relating to tanks well.... if they did a few things better I don't think we'd have half so many balance problems. All I want is for there to be variation in HAV builds allowing players you create attacking vehicles from lightly armoured scout tanks to heavy main battle tanks that can take a beating. I'd also like HAV to have weapons reflecting the raw power of the vehicle primarily NOT designed to target infantry requiring players to make use of Small Turrets and Gunners.
Em shah tey et naGÇÖemsaer ek rahvi, amarr osedah gasi ubday pahk. Ekin tey vahka ijed div ema ziel. Et tey vamatal em.
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Tebu Gan
Capital Acquisitions LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.11.06 16:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
postapo wastelander wrote:1e 3peat wrote:Tebu Gan wrote:While I won't say that tanks aren't difficult to take down solo or there are some issues with hardener timers, often times destroying one isn't exactly needed.
While I haven't played much since the latest patch, just a few games, I personally didn't have as much trouble with tanks. If it's a rail or missile tank, I generally move along mostly ignoring it as the threat is minimal.
Blasters on the other hand can be a threat but very limited to certain maps in their total effectiveness. But let's make something clear here, driving a tank off is just as good as killing it.
Given the costs of a proto tanks, terribly sorry but I honestly can't say that a single AV wielder should have the ability to control the entire field on their own.
This all said, I played a few games, one in my FG fit and another in my tank.
There were 2 tanks out as I was running a cal forger. Focusing on the sweet spot and utilizing AV nades I was able to kill a STD maddie. The gunnie on the other hand took a bit more work (missiles anyways, didn't even need to bother). But I did manage to keep the thing on it's toes, forcing it to move and never allowing it camp a point.
The match I ran my maddie in, I started out cal assault (dom). Made several kills but my team was weak and unable to make a push on the point. It was a fairly open point so I called down some muscle. I was the only tank to come down so the enemy was not expecting what was about to happen.
Roll into the backside, 8 red dots nice and grouped around a CRU. Made a few kills, broke up their momentum and let my blue dots move in and mop up and flip the point. Kept this up for a few minutes until the AV came out and forced me to play it safe. Almost got me a few times but I managed to keep them pushed back. Though I had boots on the ground picking off the somewhat defenseless AV guys.
In the end though, my team just wasn't up to snuff and I resorted to taking pop shots from the back and at the very end was forced to retreat by another tank.
All in all though, I think if you play it smart, AV can have the upper hand. Though if you expect to sit on a roof top and shoot at a tank, you won't ever do anything more than be a nuisance. Throw a little effort behind your weapon and you can solely keep a tank suppressed and ineffective. The issue here is the swarms. Forge gun might be a tad OP at A/V if combined with Lai Dai's Forge is not OP at all. Speed of sentinel + Charge rate < Tank speed + hardener + repair
LAV negates the speed advantage and provides the tanker with a seemingly "easy" target to squash. Not to mention you have damage output comparable to a large railgun AND the same 300 meters of range. But my point has been missed, Denying a tank the ability to operate is nearly just as good as killing it.
There is too much focus on the death of the tank in a conventional form. It's simply not enough for one to be driven back.
And swarms have ever been to me more of a light AV support option. Not designed around dropping heavy armor. |
DEATH THE KlD
Imperfect - Bastards
714
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Posted - 2015.11.06 16:53:00 -
[33] - Quote
I mean if you want to compare to real life then we should kill 1 shot as well, let's not pick and choose
CEO of Imperfect Bastards and NF -Heimdallr69
Imps>NS>NF
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JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
64
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:21:00 -
[34] - Quote
DEATH THE KlD wrote:I mean if you want to compare to real life then we should kill 1 shot as well, let's not pick and choose It's a video game. |
DEATH THE KlD
Imperfect - Bastards
735
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Posted - 2015.11.08 21:29:00 -
[35] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:DEATH THE KlD wrote:I mean if you want to compare to real life then we should kill 1 shot as well, let's not pick and choose It's a video game. Then why say in real life tanks can be dealt with by 1 guy? Like I said don't pick and choose..want to use that then we should kill 1 shot then we can talk otherwise people need to stop using real life to pick and choose which parts they want.."well in real life I could destroy a tank with an RPG so we should be able to in dust as well, you die 1 shot irl but I don't want that in dust"..
CEO of Imperfect Bastards and NF -Heimdallr69
Imps>NS>NF
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Richard Gamerich-R
WarRavens Imperium Eden
146
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:14:00 -
[36] - Quote
Vehicles are very well now, and anti-vehicle too.
Shields tanks are as good as the versions armor, and their resistance is good and enough I think.
Damage bonus to the back of the vehicle make it easy to destroy the vehicle if the forge gun or swarm plays intelligently. Don't forget AV grenade too, very effective to inflict maximum damage over a short period. 2 or 3 players coordinated can destroy everything quickly.
The difference is just on the player's skill now, and ISK balance is high enough to justify the resistance of prototypes tanks, and at the same time, the risk to lose this large sum of money...
Wait... I restock.
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:23:00 -
[37] - Quote
Why shouldn't you be able to (easily) 1v1 a tank? Because you can only have a limited amount of vehicles on a team, meanwhile you can have a full team of AV to take care of them swiftly.
As with most suits and builds in this game, a tank is only strong under certain conditions... If you have a group of heavies out in the open, they're boned, but if you have them in a small city or building they will poop on your corpse. So both teams will usually have HMG's all over the city, if one team doesn't, then they're at a disadvantage, but can still win if they work a little harder.
The same goes for vehicles, if one team has a dropship they will camp that roof like a bunch of spineless turds, if your team doesn't have one they will have to work around that. If a team has tanks, then they have good area denial on all the large open areas and roads, you can either bring out your own tanks, or work at a disadvantage. If a team has LAV's, well who doesn't... But they're fast and entertaining, sometimes they just blow up for no reason, other times they blow up because you flipped it into something, then there's the whole Jihaad thing... They're more useful than people give credit for... I mean you can't just run into someone with a scout and squash them...
A tank cannot pogo around the map, it has limited areas of usage, which infantry can easily move around using to their advantage. A swarmer doesn't have to sit still to pew pew the tank, it can dodge in and out of cover with ease.
A tank can hold 3 people, yet becomes no tankier for having them inside, which means 1 person is then able to gank 3. If 3v3 the people in the tank cannot spread out, flank or distract the 3 avers. My point being that there are advantages to both.
Lastly you can easily solo a tank by getting behind it... Or you know pulling your own tank, which is in fact 1v1. |
TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet RUST415
594
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Posted - 2015.11.08 22:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
https://youtu.be/eQlOZQ5oqas Nuff said. |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2015.11.09 00:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
TIGER SHARK1501 wrote:https://youtu.be/eQlOZQ5oqas Nuff said. No explanation. Next |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2015.11.09 00:49:00 -
[40] - Quote
DEATH THE KlD wrote:JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:DEATH THE KlD wrote:I mean if you want to compare to real life then we should kill 1 shot as well, let's not pick and choose It's a video game. Then why say in real life tanks can be dealt with by 1 guy? Like I said don't pick and choose..want to use that then we should kill 1 shot then we can talk otherwise people need to stop using real life to pick and choose which parts they want.."well in real life I could destroy a tank with an RPG so we should be able to in dust as well, you die 1 shot irl but I don't want that in dust".. Explosive reactive armor. Grating that causes RPGs to explode before contacting the hull. Lock on flares. There's none of this in Dust, yet a single complainer should be able to solo the best pilots around with ease. Keep dreaming. |
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.11.09 05:35:00 -
[41] - Quote
...When do people realise that in some tactical situation it is impossible to solo a tank, and in some other tactical situation it is very easy?
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
Search "KEROBPO" for list of bpos for sale.
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JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl Minmatar Republic
65
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Posted - 2015.11.09 06:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:...When do people realise that in some tactical situation it is impossible to solo a tank, and in some other tactical situation it is very easy? Because they expect to be able to sneeze on it to destroy it. |
Devadander
Woodgrain Atari
1
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Posted - 2015.11.09 06:23:00 -
[43] - Quote
Not to mention, it can be way more lucrative to constantly run off the same tanker and earn insane points from damage alone. Destruction is a one time payout.
I broke 2500wp going 0/0 keeping a maddy at bay.
Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå
Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
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Operative 1174 Uuali
True Companion Planetary Requisitions
1
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Posted - 2015.11.09 06:45:00 -
[44] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Text Grant wrote:
Modern AV can one shot a tank. I'd love to be able to one shot those OP tankers for a while. Make PLC do 10,000 damage for a while? No? Don't ask for modern tanks unless you want modern AV.
It has the potential too certainly however various types of newly developed reactive Armour systems and the well known TROPHY system are designed to defend against such instances though they are of course no garuntee for the crews who inhabit tanks. However it is worth noting that most weapons system that you are likely to reference are forms of guided rockets that detonate above the tank itself targeting the weaker armour. Morewover such HE weapons do not have the same penetrative power as the KEP (Kinetic Energy Penetrator) otherwise known as te APFSDS round (armor piercing fin stabilized discarding sabot). In terms of the New Eden setting however I would argue that offensive and defensive technologies are in very close competition with weapons systems as powerful as they are still requiring numerous shots of successful penetrate and severely damage larger vehicles. Sadly Dust 514 doesn't do many things relating to tanks well.... if they did a few things better I don't think we'd have half so many balance problems. All I want is for there to be variation in HAV builds allowing players you create attacking vehicles from lightly armoured scout tanks to heavy main battle tanks that can take a beating. I'd also like HAV to have weapons reflecting the raw power of the vehicle primarily NOT designed to target infantry requiring players to make use of Small Turrets and Gunners.
The arguement really should stop being about the power of tanks vs. AV or the relationship of DUST tanks and AV to real world tanks and AV.
The arguement dear friends is the prevalence of AV and the means to obtain it during a match under the circumstances of this game. You have people actively scrambling to fight each other in an enclosed, relatively close quarters area and they can respawn.
In this situation, AV shouldn't be so plentiful. If we could have AV be limited then it makes sense to have it be more powerful. Say, you can only obtain AV weapons, or at least the swarm launcher from a supply depot. Then you get one use per player; no reload. The up side is that it would pack more punch and you can use it regardless of weapon slots. It would appear in your rotary menu to select as a third weapon. You get three powerful vollies.
It would be more like the circumstances you might find among an infantry unit with AT-4 or a Javelin unit on the battlefield.
These weapons and units are not plentiful and are not easily replenishable while in combat.
CCP logic GÇô We fix what doesn't need breaking.
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