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Text Grant
PIanet Express
Damage LLC
435
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Posted - 2015.11.01 22:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
I've been a prototype Swarmer from day one on open beta. There were times when swarms were actually capable of doing their jobs (killing vehicles), and there were times when they were not capable. Right now, I can kill LAV's just fine, and I can even kill bad dropship pilots just fine, but a bad tanker is a pain, and this is because they have everything, with no drawbacks.
LAV's are fast, but can't take much damage. These are in a great place, they just need the better ones back.
Dropships are fast, and can take some damage, but also take more skill to fly. A good pilot can abuse these things and get tons of kills. There is no need to nerf them unless maybe you want to add a bumping effect to reduce road killing.
Tanks are fast, take tons of damage, and put out tons of DPS. Really? They don't have a single drawback unless you call ISK a drawback.
The swarm launcher has one function. It is impossible to use the swarm launcher for anything other than its function. Please buff the swarm launcher against tanks, or reduce the tanks capability to kill infantry by doing some of the following.
1 change the proficiency on the swarm launcher to bypass hardeners 5% bypassed per level.
2 slow down the acceleration on tanks, making them more vulnerable when they camp infantry.
3 add permanent dispertion on all large turrets. No heat buildup required.
4 nerf the range on all turrets to 100 meters. It's the swarmer's job to kill vehicles. He shouldn't be sniped by the thing he is trying to kill simply because of bad game mechanics. Of course, this could also be fixed by giving swarms a 300 meter lock on again. |
Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
908
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Posted - 2015.11.01 22:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Personally, I think option 2 would be the best. Perhaps as a side effect of using Hardeners. Reduced acceleration would stop pilots throwing the HAV in reverse and getting out at top speed with Hardeners up, soaking up damage while retreating before AV can get a shot locked/charged.
Purifier. First Class.
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Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.11.01 23:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
Reduced acceleration would help tremendously with placing REs. Would make mixed-AV "surprise attacks" more effective.
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Mortedeamor
The Black Masquerade
2
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Posted - 2015.11.02 00:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
all i hear is waa i suck make my role easier than a lock on gun that requires no aim and homing grenades that dont actually have to hit the target
i hereby proclaim this the scrubbiest thread of the week
pc master race
PORT IT CCP
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JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2015.11.02 01:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Reduced acceleration would help tremendously with placing REs. Would make mixed-AV "surprise attacks" more effective.
How about reduced efficacy for biotic mods? |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2015.11.02 01:13:00 -
[6] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Personally, I think option 2 would be the best. Perhaps as a side effect of using Hardeners. Reduced acceleration would stop pilots throwing the HAV in reverse and getting out at top speed with Hardeners up, soaking up damage while retreating before AV can get a shot locked/charged.
If infantry is so bad that they can't get damage out at a tank fast enough, why do they have a legitimate complaint? Tanks today travel upwards of 50mph, why can't tanks of the future move quickly? |
JudgeIsABadPilot
Circle of Huskarl
Minmatar Republic
61
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Posted - 2015.11.02 01:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
All I read was one bad idea after another. Tanks were their own best counter from closed beta on; you couldn't solo a tank with swarms. Love how all of you keep saying this because there are very few videos from closed beta onwards, so there unfortunately isn't enough to counter your fallacious arguments. It's actually been the opposite: it's gotten easier for AV to solo even the best pilots. Tanks as they are can't take a ton of damage. The marauders of Chromosome couldn't outrep a glass build Soma.
If you don't like vehicles that much, just find another game and go complain on their forums that you can't do anything, and they should nerf it down to your level. |
Adipem Nothi
Nos Nothi
17
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Posted - 2015.11.02 01:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:Adipem Nothi wrote:Reduced acceleration would help tremendously with placing REs. Would make mixed-AV "surprise attacks" more effective. How about reduced efficacy for biotic mods?
Are Biotics OP?
Dropsuit Usage Rates
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.11.02 05:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Buntly I am opposed to blanket buffs to any AV weapons without testing the ramifications of what will happen first. At the very least kill models need to be done via spreadsheet to determine the balance points at a baseline to figure out what breaks.
But here is my item-by-item response to your suggestions. My answers are italicized:
1 change the proficiency on the swarm launcher to bypass hardeners 5% bypassed per level.
There are no provisions for hardener penetration, and negating the purpose of having hardeners in the first place is pretty lame. Reducing hardeners to 1 per tank would make it possible for a swarmer to kill an HAV, but not trivially. Combined, your suggestions make doing so a trivial affair.
2 slow down the acceleration on tanks, making them more vulnerable when they camp infantry.
Maybe. This has been tossed around as a balancing factor as chrome tanks were a lot slower, and the fast speeds of today's tanks came as a bit of a shock to everyone. This might help. But for now, there are more likely to work solutions.
3 add permanent dispertion on all large turrets. No heat buildup required.
No. Railguns would be rendered worthless entirely for anything except shooting tanks at near point blank and killing stationary installations. Heavy Missile turrets are only good in the hands of a badass tank monkey and even then, aren't the best option. Blasters have obnoxious dispersion that requires a module that is an activated unit with a time duration to make them truly viable for infantry hitting.
4 nerf the range on all turrets to 100 meters. It's the swarmer's job to kill vehicles. He shouldn't be sniped by the thing he is trying to kill simply because of bad game mechanics. Of course, this could also be fixed by giving swarms a 300 meter lock on again.
Hell no, get out. Your premise "He shouldn't be sniped by the thing he is trying to kill simply because of bad game mechanics." is flawed because it is an opinion, and anecdotal at best.
Finally, Swarms are not meant to be the go-to AV option that is superior to all choices. Swarms are an AV choice. Your change suggestions would by and large render swarms superior to the Forge Gun and Plasma Cannon in just about every possible way, on the AV platform with the flat-out highest baseline DPS of any infantry AV weapon in the game.
I know this because I have TESTED these permutations. I have gone over them with tank drivers who aren't rabid win butan fanatics, and AV gunners who aren't of the opinion that having an AV weapon should mean an automatic kill against a vehicle.
I would suggest more thought and consideration to the problem and examining it both from the AV and from the driver's seat of a tank before providing one-sided solutions to acknowledged problems that benefit only your playstyle if you wish said suggestions taken more seriously.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Text Grant
PIanet Express
Damage LLC
438
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Posted - 2015.11.02 11:21:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü |
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
909
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Posted - 2015.11.02 12:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü
Technically, having Swarms bypass a portion of the Hardener is a DPS increase.
Purifier. First Class.
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Megaman Trigger
OSG Planetary Operations
909
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Posted - 2015.11.02 12:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
JudgeIsABadPilot wrote:Megaman Trigger wrote:Personally, I think option 2 would be the best. Perhaps as a side effect of using Hardeners. Reduced acceleration would stop pilots throwing the HAV in reverse and getting out at top speed with Hardeners up, soaking up damage while retreating before AV can get a shot locked/charged. If infantry is so bad that they can't get damage out at a tank fast enough, why do they have a legitimate complaint? Tanks today travel upwards of 50mph, why can't tanks of the future move quickly?
The issue isn't so much the speed, but rather their acceleration. Being able to near-instantly hit top speed, either forward or back, from a standstill. I've seen HAVs (mostly Madrugers) use this to strafe back and forth when underfire, avoiding Forge and Plasma Cannon rounds while still being able to harass infantry.
Purifier. First Class.
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Racro 01 Arifistan
Simple Minded People Pty. Ltd.
613
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Posted - 2015.11.02 15:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
i've been running both tanks and av since beta and befor.
as it stand right now av is a very good spot. av is capable of bringing down bad pilots capable of anoying the living daylights out of every other vehicle pilot around.
swarms provide the most consistent dps of any av wepaon due to thier lock-on and track mechaninc where as forge guns has charge up travel times and PLC has 1 shot, travel, reload times. then theres the diffrent types of av nades to help with increasing damage vs vehicles.
by your self it is possible to bring down a vehicle. how ever this makes you incredlby vurnable to anti-infatry (as it should) so take a good sidearm you like (these things defend you and kill attackers).
as vehicle turrets stand. the blaster is obnoxious with its aim and to get the most out of it it requrires a timed module that is a pain in the ass to fit and pair with heat sinks/damage mods. requires medium - cqc range to be effective
missiles require immence practice to hit infantry decently. can slightly abuse the redline. has slight disperion as range increases best used at medium range.
railguns......(cough scrubcannon) gets the luxuary of OHK if the pilot lands his shot. oh and has 300m range...and can abuse the redline.
small turrets iam going to generlise as they all mutilate infantry. especially them small blasters. (this is thier purpose)
as far as LAV's go it is possible to make fits capable of outright surviving av. epecially the shield lav's the saga. capable of fitting a heavy shield extender for buffer and 2 small shield boosters with a free low slot and no fitting mods it can suck up a beating and gets to point A and point B relitivley safe even while takeing swarms. forges. PLCs, and rail shots.
armour lavs on the other hand...the methana....is just free points. even with a either a light or heavy plate and capable of fitting dual light reps..just dies. its regen is too slow and the plates make avoiding damage and getting around painful. although it can take 1 or 2 swarm hits it still dies retivley quick and easy.
dropships as a whole including the ads's are in a good spot. can take/deliver a beating, regen quite well. both shield/armour DS are viable to use and can utilize a variety of fitting layout/setups.
HAV's both shield/armour are viable to run right now. although them shield tanks get mutilated by blasters (as they should) when it comes to av they both perform rather well although i would give the shield tank the upper hand here due to anti-armour weapons are more prvlent in the av department. and it is possible to make overlapping shield hardenr fits with the gunnlogi useing either dual or triple setups. even with 2-3 hardners and a signifigant damge reduction teh gunnlogi will still die due to its low hp ceiling but dont expect to kill these fits by your self. the tank its self will struggle to kill you due to encoutering fitting contraistnts for good turrets on this setup (unless high skilled)
now armour tanks.....as well all know now, double armour hardner fits are quite powerful to the point of being op. given armours constant regen, high hp ceiling, damage reduction, short cool downs and long cycle times makes them very BS. (i dont like to ruhn fits like these as i personally dont find them fun and is close to being op but thats just me.......i still have these fits built though  ) the main issue with armour hardners is that they reduce 40% and have low stacking penalty's. the answer is not to limit hardeners to 1 but increase thier staking penalty so that is not as high as it is and makes damage almost negligle to the point of being unable to deal with the vehicle. when it comes to dual hardner fits they are almost practically impossible to kill without 2-3 other people (overhwelms the regen rate)
i could go into more detail but this is as short as i can get it. although the thread is tanks vs swarms i find it better/fairer to include all forms of av mainly since swarms wont solve all your problems and that not being able to shoot infantry is its only down side. (terrain is op)
swarms like the rest of the av line are in a good spot right now and dont need to be touched for now.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47521458/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/47521142
Oppose me and you shall incure my wrath.
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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui
Four Horseman Tactical Agency
2
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Posted - 2015.11.02 17:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Megaman Trigger wrote:Text Grant wrote:Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü Technically, having Swarms bypass a portion of the Hardener is a DPS increase.
Really , only allowing one hardener is also the same because people fit multiple because you just don't have to worry about swarms , forges and the PLC but you have proxy mines , AV grenades and packed remotes as well a jihad jeeps , so to only be able to fit one hardener you increase the DPS for all AV weapons in regards of the HAV . Edit : I forgot ADS's as well .
They would become do frail that it just would make any sense to run them and one player would easily be able to solo a HAV .
I run AV and I just don't want the game to become easy because of the lazy tendencies of some that just don't want to change their tactic to deal with a threat , this game has changed because of such on so many occasions and the community just doesn't call out this fact enough because of who is leading the charge .
You can't get mad at the OP for trying to tailor the game to his liking because others do it on a regular and don't get half the slack or feedback as the OP and this is just the first page of this thread .
HAV's should call for players to rethink their strategy and adjust to deal with the threat , make it too easy and that would get thrown out of the window by the ability to solo a HAV and that's something that a skilled AV player should be able to do with effort but not against a skilled operator , the operator should have the advantage if it's one on one and if the skilled AV player doesn't adjust their approach .
One hardener would just make it too easy .
Teamwork is really important - said the Tyrannosarus Rex from Kung Fury .
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
11
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Posted - 2015.11.02 19:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Text Grant wrote:Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü
I read the whole thing. I wasn't particularly impresses with your approavh to the problem. Nor was i impressed with your reasons for the suggestions.
And never once did any of your suggestions address the core points that create the problem with HAVs: the synergy between hardeners and passive reps. There's a lot more problem than " swarms are ineffective."
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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1e 3peat
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
88
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Posted - 2015.11.02 19:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Text Grant wrote:Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü I read the whole thing. I wasn't particularly impresses with your approavh to the problem. Nor was i impressed with your reasons for the suggestions. And never once did any of your suggestions address the core points that create the problem with HAVs: the synergy between hardeners and passive reps. There's a lot more problem than " swarms are ineffective."
Swarms are ineffective though. Swarms are ineffective due to the range at which most skilled pilots engage in battle. (I mean it's debatable but not doubtful they use a mouse for accuracy) And massacre entire squads exploiting the range and ineffectiveness of light A/V weapons.
Even forge guns have a challenging task, generally getting blapped by large and small rails, at least they have the Aldin's as a choice and are somewhat effective. |
CLONE117
True Pros Forever
914
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Posted - 2015.11.02 21:45:00 -
[17] - Quote
the active hardener is too powerful in terms of damage reduction...
if they made the tank immobile while active it gives av the advantage in this case.
oh you made yourself invincible by activating your hardeners.. we will just wait around this corner for your hardeners to deactivate and then come out and insta blap you..
wait.. im not sure if that would be right.. honestly i havnt had much luck with my mlt blaster tank.. the only ones i have been killing with great effectiveness has been that one guy in the starter fit. trying to kill me.. the rest that pull out av i just flee from and distract hoping for my team to kill them after taking the objective they are guarding
that large blaster turret is surprisingly not good at taking out that group of proto stomping scrubs.. that needs to be changed.
great potential is always there..
it just has yet to be realized
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Derpty Derp
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.11.02 22:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
1e 3peat wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Text Grant wrote:Breakin stuff, the only two buffs that I proposed did not increase the DPS of swarms at all. I'm starting to think that you are biased, and enjoy tanks being OP. Thanks for not reading. =ƒÿü I read the whole thing. I wasn't particularly impresses with your approavh to the problem. Nor was i impressed with your reasons for the suggestions. And never once did any of your suggestions address the core points that create the problem with HAVs: the synergy between hardeners and passive reps. There's a lot more problem than " swarms are ineffective." Swarms are ineffective though. Swarms are ineffective due to the range at which most skilled pilots engage in battle. (I mean it's debatable but not doubtful they use a mouse for accuracy) And massacre entire squads exploiting the range and ineffectiveness of light A/V weapons. Even forge guns have a challenging task, generally getting blapped by large and small rails, at least they have the Aldin's as a choice and are somewhat effective.
Range is not a problem at all, the forge gun has plenty of range. Swarms on the other hand have plenty of range when you consider the ability to dance around cover while firing.
Also seeing a vehicle at range is much easier than seeing infantry at range... You should try a vehicle before you comment on their strengths, while ignoring their weaknesses.
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Juno Tristan
Obscure Reference
965
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Posted - 2015.11.03 06:28:00 -
[19] - Quote
Dear Swarm user please meet prox mines, REs, AV grenades and flux grenades. I think you'll get on marvelously
ADS Ramming Revenge!
Plasma Cannon Rampage
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Hawkings Greenback
Dead Man's Game
427
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Posted - 2015.11.03 12:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Dear Swarm user :
Get a friend / team to help ( preferably with other AV - not a rifle !! )
Use different AV other than swarms if you are solo
Use positioning ( it works wonders - SURPRISE SWARM / FORGE / LAI DAI SEX UP YOUR TAIL PIPE )
Forcing them off the field is as good as killing some tank pilots
There are other suggestions but you can figure them out can't you ?
Also I still run swarms on my Min Mando ( can't get the stain of those swarms off now so meh ) & I can still kill tanks.
A good tank / dropship pilot isn't going to want you to kill him & why should he, BUT they all make mistakes no matter how good. Some pilots require co ordination with swarms ( or other AV ) unless they are ******* stupid.
"Forum Lurker" since 2012
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