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Pvt Numnutz
Prophets of the Velocirapture
2
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
really excited about hotfix foxfour! My caldari bones tremble with excitement.
Anyway I was reading through the feedback thread and it didnt surprise me that swarmers and pilots were at it again. A lot was said in the feedback thread.
I just wanted to touch on a subject and see how swarmers feel about it. Soraya Xel feels very strongly that the reduction of lock range (i believe it was 25m) will make swarms unable to preform the role of killing ADS and the like. One of the tiered arguments between dropship pilots and swarm launchers is the "it takes two (swarms) to kill a dropship that can be flown by one player" leading to the OP 2 vs 1, 4 vs 2 force multiplier argument. I actually happen to think this is fair, and ill explain why.
Dropships usually never get the first move due to everything looking like the same small dot or swarms not rendering, If you are a swarmer im sure you have heard this from dropship pilots many times. Now I read in the feedback thread many times (looking at you soraya) that dropships can easily escape from a swarms lock range. now I'm kind of an oddity in the sense that i fly with a dedicated gunner meaning my hp pools are slightly lower than that of a solo fit dropship, not by much mind you only a few hundread HP difference, that being said when a swarm volley hits me i know the second is on the way, since i usually cant see where they were coming from the only option to go is out and away. The typical tactic is to hit afterburners and slam your nose down to get max speed out, the only time i've ever felt running from swarms to be "easy" "or "effortless" is when its a milita swarm.
Even when I am engagin an enemy force and see a swarm launcher fire its first shot its already too late to really engage it. I have to assume its proto or on a minmando (you loose less ships this way) so you have to turn and burn, swarm launchers have always excelled at area denial, it use to deny 400m but was reduced to 175m. Av has had points added when damaging vehicles, i must say it is very satisfying that when i smack a tank or dropship with my forge gun and send them running for the red line that +75 is a nice bonus. They did also add points for dropships, although the points are quite meager compared to getting kills or vehicle kill assists, where the +75 for damaging felt rewarding as a forge gunner the +18 for transport assist is more disappointing. There is also Mcru Points which is +50 but unless your clone has been terminated you wont get the option to spawn in the ship, and there is only basic Mcrus so no faster spawns meaning those 3 sec uplinks look much better than that 10 sec dropship. This really limits our wp, sp, and isk making to killing.
So swarms are a commandos weapon, i know they can be placed on all suits but like the scrambler it works best with a certain suit which is currently the minmando but will go to the calmando in foxfour. Commandos have the ability to fight against infantry and in the calmandos case provide overwatch to your squad. Now this brings me to why i think 2 vs 1 to kill a dropship is, in my opinion, fair. One swarm launcher will be able to provide cover for a squad in a 150m radius. If the swarm launcher is staying near a group of blues or greens or a point and a dropship comes in to harass them then the swarm can deny the dropship that AO, saving his team mates from the dropship and earning points in the process. I have always thought of swarms as that kind of area denial and the forge gun as the serious AV killing machine.
However when you add two swarms to the mix your pretty much guaranteed to get the kill on a dropship. meaning 1 swarm launcher is enough to force the dropship for the AO, denying him the kills he needs to earn wp, sp and isk. Although you don't kill the dropship you gain wp for your work protecting your allies and can still support them with a light weapon earning wp on the ground. the dropship may get a few sneaky kills before you chase it off but if you just want to murder any dropship you see i say your being unreasonable to any dropship pilots position. This also means that two swarm launchers working together will guarantee the dropship dies but does require help from another swarm or a forge gun.
so my question to the swarm community, Is it unfair to not get the kill on a dropship even when you are denying it its primary role and in turn earning your keep for fulfilling your role as anti vehicle?
Master Skyshark rider
Kaalaka dakka tamer
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
438
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Posted - 2015.10.02 04:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
Until losing a DS doesn't mean going negative for the match unless you ran logi most of it, no, it's not. |
Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.10.02 11:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
What it boils down to is this: No single player should be unkillable by another single player on basis of gear or SP totals alone.
The problem with 1v1 swarms v dropships is that it nearly never happens. A swarmer has to deal with all infantry as well as vehicles and installations. As an ADS pilot you have to deal with some infantry, all turrets and vehicles. There's almost always multiple people shooting at you no matter which side of the fight you are on and it's silly to say one person should have an advantage over the other because one sank more ISK into the fight. In chasing a vehicle, a swarmer often loses 1-2 fits simply attempting to get a lock on the vehicle and only has a sidearm with which to defend themselves against the flood of officer gear storming through pub matches. In the scheme of things that's 1-2 fits lost attempting to get a shot off, so when you finally manage to get off a shot or two and your target is gone before you can finish it it's extremely frustrating. That's the current state of things. My swarm fit is 171,720 ISK and that's with a BPO Krin's damage mod equipped. When I lose 2 fits struggling through officer gear with nothing but an SMG, finally get a shot or two off and manage to get one vehicle damage WP bump it's not a good feeling to 'scare them off so they leave us alone'.
I'm not saying that assault dropships or dropships in general always feel rewarding to play. It feels incredably unrewarding to be shoo'd off away from the fight every time you get close to it, being constantly pushed away by AV is a very serious issu and I understand that. I've piloted dropships on and off throughout my Dust career and it can be one of the most frustrating experiences there is in Dust. However being a swarmer can be just as frustrating, just as unrewarding and just as rage inducing as being an ADS or DS pilot.
That said, there is no scenario in which one player should be able to laugh off the attacks of another. No role should be anywhere near invincible in a 1v1 fight because it's just not right. As a dropship pilot you are a force multiplier. You can rain death from the skies out of reach of many AV weapons, outmaneuver all of it either by speed or evasion, and can attack with weapons that reach much farther than swarms can even lock on from. Of course draw distance is a real issue, not being able to see people on the ground is a serious problem, but it is not the fault of the people on the ground and they should not be penalized for it any more than tanks should be penalized because RE's don't stick properly to them when they are moving quickly.
Both dropships and swarms need changes to make them roles that are less frustrating and more fun to play without breaking either. I just don't have it in me to dive into that mess again after the lack of interest shown by CCP to make large changes in them to make it so. All I am willing to say is that pricing for dropships in general needs another look so they are more affordable to lose.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.02 23:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
@Baal: Thing is that you don't need to run a 170+k ISK suit to have top tier offensive potential. A STD Commando/Assault with PRO damage mods and mostly standard stuff but with a Wiyrkomi will cost around 30-60k depending on fitting/skills/BPOs yet will hit just as hard as your 170k suit.
On the flip side, I've tried making some 'cheap' ADS fits, using STD and/or MLT stuff only and they come out to around 260k...and are shitfits because they just die in seconds.
Honestly, I don't see Swarms/ADSs ever being balanced until we move away from the current mechanics of the Swarm.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Nothing Certain
Bioshock Rejects
1
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Posted - 2015.10.03 02:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
To me the issue is price. An ADS has a chance to kill a swarmer but they are risking a whole games ISK every time they attempt it. Swarms can use a small damage nerf, if Madrugars get nerfed, and the impact on DS should be lessened. Small changes lead to a fair fight between the two but the ISK cost needs to be similar for both
I'll throw a few swarm fits away to kill a particularly pesty ADS, they should have the same option against a particularly pesky swarmer. Lastly, and I think more importantly, you should not be able to switch suits at a supply depot, going from no one running AV to half the team running AV and then back again is unfair to vehicle users. AV gives up a lot of infantry potential to tun AV, it is one of the major balancing factors, negating that with Supply Depots just ruins any chance of balance.
Because, that's why.
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Roger Cordill
The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY
439
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Posted - 2015.10.03 03:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nothing Certain wrote:To me the issue is price. An ADS has a chance to kill a swarmer but they are risking a whole games ISK every time they attempt it. Swarms can use a small damage nerf, if Madrugars get nerfed, and the impact on DS should be lessened. Small changes lead to a fair fight between the two but the ISK cost needs to be similar for both
I'll throw a few swarm fits away to kill a particularly pesty ADS, they should have the same option against a particularly pesky swarmer. Lastly, and I think more importantly, you should not be able to switch suits at a supply depot, going from no one running AV to half the team running AV and then back again is unfair to vehicle users. AV gives up a lot of infantry potential to tun AV, it is one of the major balancing factors, negating that with Supply Depots just ruins any chance of balance.
It's usually much more than just a game, 2-3 more likely, assuming the person will try to earn it back through just piloting.
And Madrugars don't need lower HP's; the regen's need fixing. Simply nerfing and buffing the HP over and over won't change that it's been broken for almost a year now.
As for ISK cost, I don't mind it being higher, and I can take a longer beating than the average infantry. I'd rather get a decent payout. But if that's not possible, then the prices should probably go down to match or come close to infantry's.
And As it seems, people moan about switching to AV, as they can't still kill infantry as well, so in a sense, you're making your team's job to kill a lot easier, so fair enough. |
shaman oga
Nexus Balusa Horizon
4
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Posted - 2015.10.03 12:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
I think it's impossible to balance a single weapon to be good against both tanks and ships without making it OP against one or UP against the other.
With that said, i agree with the need of 2 vs 1, when it comes to AV vs Vehicles. Of course if a vehicle player try too hard one AV should be enough, but in a common situation at least 2 AVers should be needed to get rid of a tank/ADS.
I want to add one argument in favor of DS: when you call it you are always in sight, i can count players able to sneak by with an ADS on the fingers of my hand, that of course is a matter of skill and should not be taken in account while balancing numbers.
Regressed to blueberry level.
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HOLY PERFECTION
XxAMBUSH FTWxX
143
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Posted - 2015.10.03 13:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:What it boils down to is this: No single player should be unkillable by another single player on basis of gear or SP totals alone.
The problem with 1v1 swarms v dropships is that it nearly never happens. A swarmer has to deal with all infantry as well as vehicles and installations. As an ADS pilot you have to deal with some infantry, all turrets and vehicles. There's almost always multiple people shooting at you no matter which side of the fight you are on and it's silly to say one person should have an advantage over the other because one sank more ISK into the fight. In chasing a vehicle, a swarmer often loses 1-2 fits simply attempting to get a lock on the vehicle and only has a sidearm with which to defend themselves against the flood of officer gear storming through pub matches. In the scheme of things that's 1-2 fits lost attempting to get a shot off, so when you finally manage to get off a shot or two and your target is gone before you can finish it it's extremely frustrating. That's the current state of things. My swarm fit is 171,720 ISK and that's with a BPO Krin's damage mod equipped. When I lose 2 fits struggling through officer gear with nothing but an SMG, finally get a shot or two off and manage to get one vehicle damage WP bump it's not a good feeling to 'scare them off so they leave us alone'.
I'm not saying that assault dropships or dropships in general always feel rewarding to play. It feels incredably unrewarding to be shoo'd off away from the fight every time you get close to it, being constantly pushed away by AV is a very serious issu and I understand that. I've piloted dropships on and off throughout my Dust career and it can be one of the most frustrating experiences there is in Dust. However being a swarmer can be just as frustrating, just as unrewarding and just as rage inducing as being an ADS or DS pilot.
That said, there is no scenario in which one player should be able to laugh off the attacks of another. No role should be anywhere near invincible in a 1v1 fight because it's just not right. As a dropship pilot you are a force multiplier. You can rain death from the skies out of reach of many AV weapons, outmaneuver all of it either by speed or evasion, and can attack with weapons that reach much farther than swarms can even lock on from. Of course draw distance is a real issue, not being able to see people on the ground is a serious problem, but it is not the fault of the people on the ground and they should not be penalized for it any more than tanks should be penalized because RE's don't stick properly to them when they are moving quickly.
Both dropships and swarms need changes to make them roles that are less frustrating and more fun to play without breaking either. I just don't have it in me to dive into that mess again after the lack of interest shown by CCP to make large changes in them to make it so. All I am willing to say is that pricing for dropships in general needs another look so they are more affordable to lose. YOU DONT USE VEHICLES VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.
If I charge, follow me. If I retreat, kill me. If I die, revenge me.
I'm really hard headed
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DDx77
Random Gunz Rise Of Legion.
395
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Posted - 2015.10.03 17:29:00 -
[9] - Quote
.[/quote] YOU DONT USE VEHICLES VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. [/quote]
Whaaaht?
Every weapon huh? :/
Other than Swarms, installations, and Forge Guns, what is killing your ADS?
Death by PLC? - You are hilariously bad or that player is a great, great, great, / lucky shot
Death by Assault HMG? - You are hilariously bad
Flying into buildings again are we.....
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.03 19:04:00 -
[10] - Quote
HOLY PERFECTION wrote: YOU DONT USE VEHICLES VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.
Umm...no. Be quiet.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.10.04 09:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
HOLY PERFECTION wrote:YOU DONT USE VEHICLES VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT. I have been playing this game since 7 months before open beta. I've played every playstyle there is to run, I've experienced ever gameplay method in every patch and hotfix that has been released since August 2012, and I've dealt with whiners like you on the forums almost as long. Until you grow up a bit keep your binkey in your mouth so that garbled ignorant trash doesn't keep pouring out.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Baal Omniscient
Qualified Scrub
2
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Posted - 2015.10.04 11:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kallas Hallytyr wrote:@Baal: Thing is that you don't need to run a 170+k ISK suit to have top tier offensive potential. A STD Commando/Assault with PRO damage mods and mostly standard stuff but with a Wiyrkomi will cost around 30-60k depending on fitting/skills/BPOs yet will hit just as hard as your 170k suit.
On the flip side, I've tried making some 'cheap' ADS fits, using STD and/or MLT stuff only and they come out to around 260k...and are shitfits because they just die in seconds.
Honestly, I don't see Swarms/ADSs ever being balanced until we move away from the current mechanics of the Swarm. The survivability of a cheap AV suit drops as the price drops however. Sure my suit costs me a lot, but it can takes 3 missiles to kill (2 if I'm hit directly). Being one-shotted by a missile isn't really an option when trying to kill something that shoots missiles. Also, getting a chance to fire on a vehicle in a cheap AV fit (especially with the officer spam that's become so popular) is nearly impossible because you are constantly being killed by the flood of people who see your gimped by having an AV only weapon.
That said, I'm all for changing swarm launcher mechanics. It's just a matter of how we do it.
Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0
I GÖú Puppies
(Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
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Kallas Hallytyr
Skullbreakers
1
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Posted - 2015.10.04 15:10:00 -
[13] - Quote
A cheap AV Commando post-slot normalisation is not a huge amount less survivable. I run STD Commandos very often, and they simply don't get one-shotted by non-Large Railgun turrets; it's not mathematically possible. In fact no Commando can be, and they are (barely) debatably the best AV suits.
Alt of Halla Murr. Sentinel.
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Ama Zarek
BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance
23
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Posted - 2015.10.05 12:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
After playing with full skill in Swarms / proto / officer I am actually quite satisfied with how it works - I can do moderate area denial - but rarely kill a ADS if it wants to take a long turn and come back after repairs.
I think its fine. |
Shamarskii Simon
The Hundred Acre Hood
402
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Posted - 2015.10.05 22:06:00 -
[15] - Quote
The only thing is.... Does this give the chance to dodge?
*/ THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE IS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DODGE /*
and until then, we'll constantly have this argument of how to balance swarms.
My suggestion? Swarms + inertia + TIGHT radius while tracking ahead of the vehicle along with turning later... Call it turning intervals.
Not all at once... But that's just me. Swarms v DS will always happen until it can be dodged.
Just my 2 isk to this thread
Forever ADS. Best role.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.10.06 02:31:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pvt Numnutz wrote:really excited about hotfix foxfour! My caldari bones tremble with excitement. Anyway I was reading through the feedback thread and it didnt surprise me that swarmers and pilots were at it again. A lot was said in the feedback thread. I just wanted to touch on a subject and see how swarmers feel about it. Soraya Xel feels very strongly that the reduction of lock range (i believe it was 25m) will make swarms unable to preform the role of killing ADS and the like. One of the tiered arguments between dropship pilots and swarm launchers is the "it takes two (swarms) to kill a dropship that can be flown by one player" leading to the OP 2 vs 1, 4 vs 2 force multiplier argument. I actually happen to think this is fair, and ill explain why. Dropships usually never get the first move due to everything looking like the same small dot or swarms not rendering, If you are a swarmer im sure you have heard this from dropship pilots many times. Now I read in the feedback thread many times (looking at you soraya) that dropships can easily escape from a swarms lock range. now I'm kind of an oddity in the sense that i fly with a dedicated gunner meaning my hp pools are slightly lower than that of a solo fit dropship, not by much mind you only a few hundread HP difference, that being said when a swarm volley hits me i know the second is on the way, since i usually cant see where they were coming from the only option to go is out and away. The typical tactic is to hit afterburners and slam your nose down to get max speed out, the only time i've ever felt running from swarms to be "easy" "or "effortless" is when its a milita swarm. Even when I am engagin an enemy force and see a swarm launcher fire its first shot its already too late to really engage it. I have to assume its proto or on a minmando (you loose less ships this way) so you have to turn and burn, swarm launchers have always excelled at area denial, it use to deny 400m but was reduced to 175m. Av has had points added when damaging vehicles, i must say it is very satisfying that when i smack a tank or dropship with my forge gun and send them running for the red line that +75 is a nice bonus. They did also add points for dropships, although the points are quite meager compared to getting kills or vehicle kill assists, where the +75 for damaging felt rewarding as a forge gunner the +18 for transport assist is more disappointing. There is also Mcru Points which is +50 but unless your clone has been terminated you wont get the option to spawn in the ship, and there is only basic Mcrus so no faster spawns meaning those 3 sec uplinks look much better than that 10 sec dropship. This really limits our wp, sp, and isk making to killing. So swarms are a commandos weapon, i know they can be placed on all suits but like the scrambler it works best with a certain suit which is currently the minmando but will go to the calmando in foxfour. Commandos have the ability to fight against infantry and in the calmandos case provide overwatch to your squad. Now this brings me to why i think 2 vs 1 to kill a dropship is, in my opinion, fair. One swarm launcher will be able to provide cover for a squad in a 150m radius. If the swarm launcher is staying near a group of blues or greens or a point and a dropship comes in to harass them then the swarm can deny the dropship that AO, saving his team mates from the dropship and earning points in the process. I have always thought of swarms as that kind of area denial and the forge gun as the serious AV killing machine. However when you add two swarms to the mix your pretty much guaranteed to get the kill on a dropship. meaning 1 swarm launcher is enough to force the dropship for the AO, denying him the kills he needs to earn wp, sp and isk. Although you don't kill the dropship you gain wp for your work protecting your allies and can still support them with a light weapon earning wp on the ground. the dropship may get a few sneaky kills before you chase it off but if you just want to murder any dropship you see i say your being unreasonable to any dropship pilots position. This also means that two swarm launchers working together will guarantee the dropship dies but does require help from another swarm or a forge gun. so my question to the swarm community, Is it unfair to not get the kill on a dropship even when you are denying it its primary role and in turn earning your keep for fulfilling your role as anti vehicle?
This is a very good post. Should be mandatory reading to anyone participating in swarm AV discussions.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
2
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Posted - 2015.10.06 02:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
Baal Omniscient wrote:What it boils down to is this: No single player should be unkillable by another single player on basis of gear or SP totals alone.
Even though that general concept is key in finding gameplay combat balance, it cannot be followed blindly. Or rather, there is an exception to it: If a player becomes a zero factor for the match, it is okay if he is able to evade death.
KERO-TRADER is my official Eve character for Dust trading.
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