To me the issue is price. An ADS has a chance to kill a swarmer but they are risking a whole games ISK every time they attempt it. Swarms can use a small damage nerf, if Madrugars get nerfed, and the impact on DS should be lessened. Small changes lead to a fair fight between the two but the ISK cost needs to be similar for both

I'll throw a few swarm fits away to kill a particularly pesty ADS, they should have the same option against a particularly pesky swarmer. Lastly, and I think more importantly, you should not be able to switch suits at a supply depot, going from no one running AV to half the team running AV and then back again is unfair to vehicle users. AV gives up a lot of infantry potential to tun AV, it is one of the major balancing factors, negating that with Supply Depots just ruins any chance of balance.

What it boils down to is this: No single player should be unkillable by another single player on basis of gear or SP totals alone.

The problem with 1v1 swarms v dropships is that it nearly never happens. A swarmer has to deal with all infantry as well as vehicles and installations. As an ADS pilot you have to deal with some infantry, all turrets and vehicles. There's almost always multiple people shooting at you no matter which side of the fight you are on and it's silly to say one person should have an advantage over the other because one sank more ISK into the fight. In chasing a vehicle, a swarmer often loses 1-2 fits simply attempting to get a lock on the vehicle and only has a sidearm with which to defend themselves against the flood of officer gear storming through pub matches. In the scheme of things that's 1-2 fits lost attempting to get a shot off, so when you finally manage to get off a shot or two and your target is gone before you can finish it it's extremely frustrating. That's the current state of things. My swarm fit is 171,720 ISK and that's with a BPO Krin's damage mod equipped. When I lose 2 fits struggling through officer gear with nothing but an SMG, finally get a shot or two off and manage to get one vehicle damage WP bump it's not a good feeling to 'scare them off so they leave us alone'.

I'm not saying that assault dropships or dropships in general always feel rewarding to play. It feels incredably unrewarding to be shoo'd off away from the fight every time you get close to it, being constantly pushed away by AV is a very serious issu and I understand that. I've piloted dropships on and off throughout my Dust career and it can be one of the most frustrating experiences there is in Dust. However being a swarmer can be just as frustrating, just as unrewarding and just as rage inducing as being an ADS or DS pilot.

That said, there is no scenario in which one player should be able to laugh off the attacks of another. No role should be anywhere near invincible in a 1v1 fight because it's just not right. As a dropship pilot you are a force multiplier. You can rain death from the skies out of reach of many AV weapons, outmaneuver all of it either by speed or evasion, and can attack with weapons that reach much farther than swarms can even lock on from. Of course draw distance is a real issue, not being able to see people on the ground is a serious problem, but it is not the fault of the people on the ground and they should not be penalized for it any more than tanks should be penalized because RE's don't stick properly to them when they are moving quickly.

Both dropships and swarms need changes to make them roles that are less frustrating and more fun to play without breaking either. I just don't have it in me to dive into that mess again after the lack of interest shown by CCP to make large changes in them to make it so. All I am willing to say is that pricing for dropships in general needs another look so they are more affordable to lose.

YOU DONT USE VEHICLES
VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.

YOU DONT USE VEHICLES
VEHICLES HAVE TO DEAL WITH - EVERY WEAPON IN THE ******* GAME TOO SMARTASS. EVERYTHING INFANTRY HAS TO DEAL WITH AND (MORE.) SO SHUT UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.

@Baal: Thing is that you don't need to run a 170+k ISK suit to have top tier offensive potential. A STD Commando/Assault with PRO damage mods and mostly standard stuff but with a Wiyrkomi will cost around 30-60k depending on fitting/skills/BPOs yet will hit just as hard as your 170k suit.

On the flip side, I've tried making some 'cheap' ADS fits, using STD and/or MLT stuff only and they come out to around 260k...and are shitfits because they just die in seconds.

Honestly, I don't see Swarms/ADSs ever being balanced until we move away from the current mechanics of the Swarm.

really excited about hotfix foxfour! My caldari bones tremble with excitement.

Anyway I was reading through the feedback thread and it didnt surprise me that swarmers and pilots were at it again. A lot was said in the feedback thread.

I just wanted to touch on a subject and see how swarmers feel about it. Soraya Xel feels very strongly that the reduction of lock range (i believe it was 25m) will make swarms unable to preform the role of killing ADS and the like. One of the tiered arguments between dropship pilots and swarm launchers is the "it takes two (swarms) to kill a dropship that can be flown by one player" leading to the OP 2 vs 1, 4 vs 2 force multiplier argument. I actually happen to think this is fair, and ill explain why.

Dropships usually never get the first move due to everything looking like the same small dot or swarms not rendering, If you are a swarmer im sure you have heard this from dropship pilots many times. Now I read in the feedback thread many times (looking at you soraya) that dropships can easily escape from a swarms lock range. now I'm kind of an oddity in the sense that i fly with a dedicated gunner meaning my hp pools are slightly lower than that of a solo fit dropship, not by much mind you only a few hundread HP difference, that being said when a swarm volley hits me i know the second is on the way, since i usually cant see where they were coming from the only option to go is out and away. The typical tactic is to hit afterburners and slam your nose down to get max speed out, the only time i've ever felt running from swarms to be "easy" "or "effortless" is when its a milita swarm.

Even when I am engagin an enemy force and see a swarm launcher fire its first shot its already too late to really engage it. I have to assume its proto or on a minmando (you loose less ships this way) so you have to turn and burn, swarm launchers have always excelled at area denial, it use to deny 400m but was reduced to 175m.
Av has had points added when damaging vehicles, i must say it is very satisfying that when i smack a tank or dropship with my forge gun and send them running for the red line that +75 is a nice bonus. They did also add points for dropships, although the points are quite meager compared to getting kills or vehicle kill assists, where the +75 for damaging felt rewarding as a forge gunner the +18 for transport assist is more disappointing. There is also Mcru Points which is +50 but unless your clone has been terminated you wont get the option to spawn in the ship, and there is only basic Mcrus so no faster spawns meaning those 3 sec uplinks look much better than that 10 sec dropship. This really limits our wp, sp, and isk making to killing.

So swarms are a commandos weapon, i know they can be placed on all suits but like the scrambler it works best with a certain suit which is currently the minmando but will go to the calmando in foxfour. Commandos have the ability to fight against infantry and in the calmandos case provide overwatch to your squad.
Now this brings me to why i think 2 vs 1 to kill a dropship is, in my opinion, fair. One swarm launcher will be able to provide cover for a squad in a 150m radius. If the swarm launcher is staying near a group of blues or greens or a point and a dropship comes in to harass them then the swarm can deny the dropship that AO, saving his team mates from the dropship and earning points in the process. I have always thought of swarms as that kind of area denial and the forge gun as the serious AV killing machine.

However when you add two swarms to the mix your pretty much guaranteed to get the kill on a dropship.
meaning 1 swarm launcher is enough to force the dropship for the AO, denying him the kills he needs to earn wp, sp and isk. Although you don't kill the dropship you gain wp for your work protecting your allies and can still support them with a light weapon earning wp on the ground. the dropship may get a few sneaky kills before you chase it off but if you just want to murder any dropship you see i say your being unreasonable to any dropship pilots position.
This also means that two swarm launchers working together will guarantee the dropship dies but does require help from another swarm or a forge gun.

so my question to the swarm community,
Is it unfair to not get the kill on a dropship even when you are denying it its primary role and in turn earning your keep for fulfilling your role as anti vehicle?

What it boils down to is this: No single player should be unkillable by another single player on basis of gear or SP totals alone.