DUST Search - @Rattati, RE: Fixing shields:: Normalize laser damage profile

zzZaXxx wrote:

Since we're finally addressing how shields recover from damage could we please take a look at how they receive damage?

The Scrambler Rifle is an extremely effective weapon overall and, as we all know, it just annihilates shields. No matter what you do to shields, all shield tankers can do when faced with SCR, ASCR, and LR is run. +48% dmg at prof 5 with 2 dmg mods = around 110 dmg against shields per SCR round. (!!!) The recharge buff will help somewhat but that is just too much damage to deal with.

So please address the issue at the source, starting with laser weapons' imbalanced damage profile. Just change it to +15/-15, normalizing it with other weapons. Even that will only move 3 or 4 dmg from shields to armor, but it's something!!

Someone tell me one good reason not to do this. You can't.

If you want to fix shields you have to address the main issue, which is that a) SCR dominates in general, but just DELETES shields, and b) ASCR and LR delete shields too even though they don't dominate in general, so c) laser damage profile needs to be balanced to +15/-15 just to start with.

When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.

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zzZaXxx XxAMBUSH FTWxX 772	Posted - 2015.09.23 15:43:00 - [1] - Quote Since we're finally addressing how shields recover from damage could we please take a look at how they receive damage? The Scrambler Rifle is an extremely effective weapon overall and, as we all know, it just annihilates shields. No matter what you do to shields, all shield tankers can do when faced with SCR, ASCR, and LR is run. +48% dmg at prof 5 with 2 dmg mods = around 110 dmg against shields per SCR round. (!!!) The recharge buff will help somewhat but that is just too much damage to deal with. So please address the issue at the source, starting with laser weapons' imbalanced damage profile. Just change it to +15/-15, normalizing it with other weapons. Even that will only move 3 or 4 dmg from shields to armor, but it's something!! Someone tell me one good reason not to do this. You can't. If you want to fix shields you have to address the main issue, which is that a) SCR dominates in general, but just DELETES shields, and b) ASCR and LR delete shields too even though they don't dominate in general, so c) laser damage profile needs to be balanced to +15/-15 just to start with.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 227	Posted - 2015.09.23 17:27:00 - [2] - Quote Laser damage being +20/-20 is balanced, considering that explosive damage is -20/+20. You don't see me complaining about how locus nades blap my armor suits, so I would suggest you not complain about laser damage. I also think that the CPM threads regarding shields have already established that this is not a change that will work, since they need to first establish a framework for how shields work, similar to the speed:EHP curve that Rattati brought in. Before that happens, anything that's done is just a bandaid that will have to be removed/reworked again when shields are actually fixed. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
zzZaXxx XxAMBUSH FTWxX 774	Posted - 2015.09.23 19:00:00 - [3] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Laser damage being +20/-20 is balanced, considering that explosive damage is -20/+20. You don't see me complaining about how locus nades blap my armor suits, so I would suggest you not complain about laser damage. I also think that the CPM threads regarding shields have already established that this is not a change that will work, since they need to first establish a framework for how shields work, similar to the speed:EHP curve that Rattati brought in. Before that happens, anything that's done is just a bandaid that will have to be removed/reworked again when shields are actually fixed. Laser weapons need to be compared to plasma, rail, and projectile weapons, not to mass drivers, flaylock pistols, and locus grenades. As for your second point, I think it should be clear to everyone that, when it comes to the effectiveness of shield tanking, fixing shield recharge mechanics is important, but it is no less important to address the extreme extent to which laser weapons, particularly Scrambler Rifles, dominate shields. Do you even shield tank bro? Moving 3-4 dmg on SCR from shields to armor will help shield tankers while not overly affecting armor tankers. Shield tankers need a little relief from the ownage of laser weapons. Is this not glaringly obvious??? How can this change be anything but good? This needs to happen now, not in 2, 3, 4 months.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 228	Posted - 2015.09.23 22:13:00 - [4] - Quote Do I shield tank? No, I don't- it doesn't fit with my playstyle, nor my preference for the Amarrian suits (or the GalMando with PLC). I don't see how that's relevant, either. It's also worth noting that the Laser Rifle, despite being called a rifle, is much more comparable to the MD. There's also the issue that you're ignoring the fact that locus grenades absolutely destroy armor tank suits. Furthermore, what evidence do you actually have that a profile change will help? If anything, I would say that you should be arguing that laser weapons should have reduced/different effect for the proficiency bonus. If there's any issue with the laser damage profile, it's actually that all of the proficiency skills are just ridiculous. IMO, proficiency skills should have bonuses that are not directly related to straight damage- for example, the old shotgun RoF proficiency bonus was awesome. I'll also note that you won't convince me that a laser profile change to +15/-15 is good, in part because I think projectile damage should be removed entirely, with the CR, SMG, and HMG being swapped over to explosive damage instead. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
zzZaXxx XxAMBUSH FTWxX 785	Posted - 2015.09.25 18:22:00 - [5] - Quote Ok....now that Cal/Min shields just got mega-buffed, and SCR and ASCR got nerfed, clearly we need to wait and see. If shields STILL are taking too much of a beating from laser weapons, I think the next place to look for balancing is how these weapons are doing damage to shields, starting with damage profile.
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 231	Posted - 2015.09.25 19:08:00 - [6] - Quote I'd like to point out that there was a study done that found that the ScR tends to "microcharge" every shot, due to the mechanics requiring it to fire upon trigger release. This does lead to a 5-7% increase in damage per shot, depending on how long it takes a player to release the trigger. In the case of the LR... I'd also say that it's overall fine. Most issues with it, IMO, center on it being a tad underpowered. As far as the AScR, no comment- I find it to perform poorly for myself, but then again I find the AR and ACR to be poor performers in my hands too, so that could just be playstyle or preference. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Bradric Banewolf Titans of Phoenix Damage LLC 1	Posted - 2015.09.25 19:33:00 - [7] - Quote The scrambler rifle and laser rifle already shreds armor due to high dmg output numbers of the scrambler rifle and the multiplier of the laser. No to dmg -15 against armor. Yes, 20 -15 shields "Anybody order chaos?"
zzZaXxx XxAMBUSH FTWxX 785	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:02:00 - [8] - Quote Maybe the increased heat cost of charging will apply to those microcharges. That would balance the extra damage by decreasing shots before overheat. LR is fine because any slight OPness it has is a) situational and b) offset by it's total lack of CQC ability. Now that RR is about to be king again it will need a buff. ASCR is still a bit of an enigma, but now that shields are awesome and SCR is harder to use it will have a significant role, as it destroyifies shields.
TaaSr GunZ Dust University Ivy League 57	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:06:00 - [9] - Quote let's just give the Amarr rocks and a slingshot... "The Amarr people came into the world and the world came into being." - The Scriptures, Book I 1:14
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 232	Posted - 2015.09.25 20:42:00 - [10] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Maybe the increased heat cost of charging will apply to those microcharges. That would balance the extra damage by decreasing shots before overheat. There's no "maybe" about it. The scrambler rifle will no longer be able to fire as many shots (or as rapidly), due to overheating faster. It must be stressed however, that microcharging is not an exploitation of a game mechanic, but is in fact a quirk of the Scrambler Rifle's operation due to how the charge mechanic works. Put simply, microcharging "exists" because the ScR fires when you let go of the trigger, and not when you press the trigger. If a player were able to perfectly tap a trigger such that the weapon didn't microcharge, then it would produce the listed damage values. Since that is functionally impossible, and there's a number of delays introduced due to input lag, client/server communication delays, and the human element of a finger depressing and then releasing a button, microcharging happens. It's important to note that it's possible that the devs themselves never realized that firing the ScR typically caused microcharging, and that the microcharging is quite frankly a mechanical side-effect of how the engine and the inputs used by players work. zzZaXxx wrote: LR is fine because any slight OPness it has is a) situational and b) offset by it's total lack of CQC ability. Now that RR is about to be king again it will need a buff. I've made my thoughts clear in the CPM LR thread, but the gist is that it should have a 150 meter optimal-end, the Chrome-era camera sight brought back, and optional ScR stock added to the weapon model because the ScR stock is badass. Bradric Banewolf wrote: The scrambler rifle and laser rifle already shreds armor due to high dmg output numbers of the scrambler rifle and the multiplier of the laser. I can attest to the fact that LR TTK against armor-tanked targets is quite suboptimal. I fully admit that it may be that I am just a bad laserman, but I think it's worth noting anyways. In the case of the ScR, see above comments of mine regarding the microcharging phenomenon. Bradric Banewolf wrote: No to dmg -15 against armor. Yes, 20 -15 shields So you're attempting to claim that the profile should be +15 shield/-20 armor? Because if so that's stupid. We've had imbalanced damage profiles before cough projectile -5/+10 cough, and it didn't work. A +15/-20 profile would be the reverse of the old projectiles, in that rather than being the best overall profile in the game, it would be by far the worst. As it stands, laser weapons being "good" against armor has more to do with the fact that laser weapons tend to boast mechanics which increase their raw damage before modifiers (ScR charge shots, ScP headshot bonus, LR time-on-trigger mechanic). As a final aside/PSA: The ScR does not boast an improved headshot modifier. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts

zzZaXxx XxAMBUSH FTWxX 785	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:01:00 - [11] - Quote Only charge shots produce more heat now, not normal shots. The SCR overall is not getting a heat nerf, though, like I was saying, if the increased heat cost also applies to microcharges (and I don't see why it wouldn't) then the SCR will in effect experience an overall heat nerf to some extent. It's SCR hipfire kick increase that's being nerfed. I for one already find the SCR's hipfire kick to be a bit much for me, so it's entering RR territory. All things considered, SCR will probably not be OP anymore. Finally!!!
Victor Moody Stahl Amarr Templars Amarr Empire 234	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:16:00 - [12] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Only charge shots produce more heat now, not normal shots. The SCR overall is not getting a heat nerf, though, like I was saying, if the increased heat cost also applies to microcharges (and I don't see why it wouldn't) then the SCR will in effect experience an overall heat nerf to some extent. Okay, let me explain it to you this way: A microcharge is what happens when you fire the ScR. All the time, no matter what, because it is nigh-on physically impossible to perfectly depress and release the trigger such that the weapon does not very slightly charge. All shots fired by the ScR are microcharge shots. This is not some kind of fancy mechanic that only a super-special-snowflake few are exploiting. It happens to everybody who uses the ScR. As such, yes, all shots fired by the ScR will be producing more heat. It's simply a consequence of the weapon's microcharge quirk. So yes, you are correct that microcharge shots will generate more heat. However, you are incorrect to assume that this will not effect use of the weapon when not actively attempting to fire charge shots, as input lag between controls and PS3, lag between the PS3 and the servers, and lag in human response/reaction times, cause microcharging. zzZaXxx wrote: It's SCR hipfire kick increase that's being nerfed. I for one already find the SCR's hipfire kick to be a bit much for me, so it's entering RR territory. All things considered, SCR will probably not be OP anymore. Finally!!! I was not aware that the ScR was "overpowered" at present. Moreover, I am unaware of any clarification that the ScR's recoil increase is going to be hipfire-only. Please provide a Dev quote explaining that that is the case. Buff Logis \| Nerf Scouts
Zan Azikuchi G.R.A.V.E The Ditanian Alliance 259	Posted - 2015.09.25 21:28:00 - [13] - Quote zzZaXxx wrote: Since we're finally addressing how shields recover from damage could we please take a look at how they receive damage? The Scrambler Rifle is an extremely effective weapon overall and, as we all know, it just annihilates shields. No matter what you do to shields, all shield tankers can do when faced with SCR, ASCR, and LR is run. +48% dmg at prof 5 with 2 dmg mods = around 110 dmg against shields per SCR round. (!!!) The recharge buff will help somewhat but that is just too much damage to deal with. So please address the issue at the source, starting with laser weapons' imbalanced damage profile. Just change it to +15/-15, normalizing it with other weapons. Even that will only move 3 or 4 dmg from shields to armor, but it's something!! Someone tell me one good reason not to do this. You can't. If you want to fix shields you have to address the main issue, which is that a) SCR dominates in general, but just DELETES shields, and b) ASCR and LR delete shields too even though they don't dominate in general, so c) laser damage profile needs to be balanced to +15/-15 just to start with. Well, swarm launchers are getting a unique (albeit mostly unchanged) profile, the same can be done with SCR after rebalance, probably make it Laser - Scrambler +15/-15 and Laser - Laser would stay +20/-20, seems logical if we make it like that, right? When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
Ama Zarek BurgezzE.T.F General Tso's Alliance 18	Posted - 2015.09.26 20:12:00 - [14] - Quote There is nothing wrong if something is awesome againt shields - if it sucks at armor.
Vesta Opalus Rebels New Republic The Ditanian Alliance 1	Posted - 2015.09.27 06:54:00 - [15] - Quote Victor Moody Stahl wrote: Do I shield tank? No, I don't- it doesn't fit with my playstyle Getting your **** pushed in is no ones playstyle.


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