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Arirana
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 08:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
What people need to remember is that while armor is better than shields, it will take VERY little for that to be rectified or even reversed. Small tweaks are a safe bet.
- Shield dropsuit's depleted recharge delay should become the same as their recharge delay. This encourages shield tanking on shield dropsuits, while the armor dropsuits are left with the increased depleted recharge delay penalty for trying to dual tank. This will help shield suits at least recover from getting fluxed faster.
- CPU/PG:HP ratio for shield extenders and ferroscale plates need to be balanced. Currently ferroscales offer more HP, for less CPU/PG cost and no penalty. Not good.
- Damage mods should become both a high slot module and a low slot module. Reasoning is balance, this is the forums logic is irrelevant.
- All HP modules, damage mods, kin cats, and code breakers (essentially most of the really useful modules) are PG heavy, the armor suits have much more PG than the shield suits. This combined with OP armor modules and dmg mods in highs give armor dropsuits too much of a fitting advantage. Either do something about the modules themselves, or the PG on shield suits.
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 09:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Armor isn't OP. Shield needs a buff but armor doesn't need a nerf.
I like your idea of not having a depleted recharge delay on cal suits.
CPU/PG costs of extenders really need to be decreased and/or shield suits need more PG to fit them.
Something that unbalance shield vs armor is that armor is low slots only but shield is both lows and highs. I don't think putting dmg mods on lows would change anything. If you want people to make a real choice between dmg mods and something else, armor tankers must have a wider choice on their highs.
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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Arirana
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 10:44:00 -
[3] - Quote
Sequal's Back wrote:Armor isn't OP. Shield needs a buff but armor doesn't need a nerf.
I like your idea of not having a depleted recharge delay on cal suits.
CPU/PG costs of extenders really need to be decreased and/or shield suits need more PG to fit them.
Something that unbalance shield vs armor is that armor is low slots only but shield is both lows and highs. I don't think putting dmg mods on lows would change anything. If you want people to make a real choice between dmg mods and something else, armor tankers must have a wider choice on their highs.
Yeah its not that armor is OP, its that armor modules and dropsuits are just easier to fit allowing for more versatility in the highs, grenades and equipment compared to shield suits.
I disagree about the damage mods. Armor suits don't have to sacrifice their primary HP modules to run them, but shield users do. Dual tanking always comes back to damage mods. If you traded a few shield extenders for some damage mods on your cal assault, it is really worth it to run some ferroscales in your lows to make up for it. Taking this route reduces your chance of absolute doom when someone hits you with a flux grenade as well, because you were never fully invested in shield HP to begin with.
For Armor suits throwing on a shield extender or two is just a given because there really isnt ANYTHING else to run with your 1-2 damage mods. Passive scans are UP so precision enhancers are out, you have to fit 3 jump mods or none at all if you're taking that route so damage mods and jump mods will never work (again dual tanking always comes back to damage mods).
No damage mods and pure dual tank allows for a little more survivability, but when facing a player with damage mods you will notice that you will be going to reload while they are putting the finishing shots on you. Trust me I've tried pure dual tank that last HP module isn't helping you out as much as 1 damage mod would be.
If damage mods were high slots AND low slots as well that changes things. Shield suits can run those and run full shields modules, same as armor dropsuits. Another thing I feel should happen is that code breakers become a high slot, be reduced in pg/cpu cost and buffed. They are only useful in the ONE situation where the enemy has no scans, and you HAVE to get that hack even if it means your death. If they were high slot modules, cost less and did more ninja hacking would be more viable.
Also kin cats meant for shield dropsuits? lol gg 14 pg
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Echo 1991
Corrosive Synergy
No Context
940
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Posted - 2015.09.23 11:06:00 -
[4] - Quote
you cant do the whole no depleted delay when its possible to have passive reps of 60+ with a couple of modules. Im all for lowering the delay slightly on cal and min suits, more so on the cal. Fitting room is also a problem and needs addressing, maybe they could lower PG cost by around 2-3 and CPU cost by about 20 (at proto), then lower HP slighly so the current shield extenders mirror ferroscales in a way.
Then they could add a type of heavy extender that gives comparable HP to normal Plates, Not as much as plates cos armour needs a repair module to get a decent repair rate, so should obviously give a fair bit more HP.
Damage mods should not be used in both slots, If they moved them to low slots however, the balance would shift to shield suits as they can dish out more damage and have tank. I wouldn't mind that cos then that 900+ HP amarr assault with 3 damage mods wouldnt be a problem but then i feel that kincats should have to move to high slots so that armour suits have to choose between tank and damage and still have speed, whereas shields would have to choose between tank and speed but keep the damage.
This is just what i think should happen, I think you're ideas are good and i agree with them all except the damage mods becoming a module in both slots
Wanna play eve?
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Sequal's Back
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 11:15:00 -
[5] - Quote
The reason why I said that adding dmg slots to lows wouldn't change a lot of things for cal is because cal already has shield regs in the lows that are (IMO) the best thing to fit on a shield suit. Then I'd say kincats (that cost way too much PG as you perfectly stated). I wouldn't use dmg mods on lows because of this, but that's me ^^
Bring your daughter... TO THE SLAUGHTER !
- Sequal Rise
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xavier zor
1.U.P
2
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Posted - 2015.09.23 11:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
shields are broken in so many ways....
sLaYeR
unicus peritia, salvus perveniet elite InTheDark
InTheDark doesn't need you!
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dzizur
Nos Nothi
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 11:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
hmm.. just occured to me, what would happen if we put armor reps in high slots? |
Arirana
Ancient Exiles.
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 13:09:00 -
[8] - Quote
dzizur wrote:hmm.. just occured to me, what would happen if we put armor reps in high slots?
People stacking 5 armor plates 3 reppers, what else...
The Official Ari QQ Thread
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 15:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
How about the following tweaks?
Buff shield regulators to 25/33/40% (militia+basic/adv/pro).
Buff shield energisers to 50/67/85%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
Buff shield rechargers to 45/55/65%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
No need to mess with delays, not need to mess with other modules, just these simple buffs to the current shield regen mods. |
CommanderBolt
Dead Man's Game
4
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Posted - 2015.09.23 18:17:00 -
[10] - Quote
Varoth Drac wrote:How about the following tweaks?
Buff shield regulators to 25/33/40% (militia+basic/adv/pro).
Buff shield energisers to 50/67/85%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
Buff shield rechargers to 45/55/65%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
No need to mess with delays, not need to mess with other modules, just these simple buffs to the current shield regen mods.
But the problem isnt how fast per tick you can get shields to regenerate at, you can make some moster ticks. The issue is lengthy delays, +20% shield damage weapons, imbalance in modules and total lack of shield logistics.
"Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
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Vesta Opalus
Rebels New Republic
The Ditanian Alliance
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 19:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Arirana wrote:What people need to remember is that while armor is better than shields, it will take VERY little for that to be rectified or even reversed. Small tweaks are a safe bet.
I agree with you on the individual 1v1 level. However when you take teamwork/equipment into account, logis create a huge multiplier when applied to armor suits, and shield suits just have absolutely nothing to match it.
If you have shield suits supported by logis its a joke, even if they are armor tanking in their lows, it doesnt help much. Compare that to armor based suits with logi support, which become an unstoppable juggernaut due to the power of repair tools + HP buffer, and you get a massive teamwide imbalance that makes the low level 1 on 1 imbalance look trivial. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 20:17:00 -
[12] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Varoth Drac wrote:How about the following tweaks?
Buff shield regulators to 25/33/40% (militia+basic/adv/pro).
Buff shield energisers to 50/67/85%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
Buff shield rechargers to 45/55/65%
Reduce CPU cost by 20%
No need to mess with delays, not need to mess with other modules, just these simple buffs to the current shield regen mods. But the problem isnt how fast per tick you can get shields to regenerate at, you can make some moster ticks. The issue is lengthy delays, +20% shield damage weapons, imbalance in modules and total lack of shield logistics.
Increased regen per tick offsets the delay.
Also it's easy to get a 2 second delay on a caldari suit. How short does it have to be? Also I suggested buffing regulators, so the delay will get shorter.
Shield logistics and extender variations would be nice.
Damage profiles aren't the issue. Explosives do +20% to armour. Projectile does +15% to armour.
Buffing the modules like I suggested will help balance the modules. |
BARAGAMOS
Kinsho Swords
Caldari State
224
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Posted - 2015.09.23 20:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
The issue is not regen, total HP, delay times, or even module costs. It is the fact that shield suits must survive the actual encounter to trigger any of the benefits of having shields. Right now there are too many weapons that are too good at melting shields and armor tanking leaves you with more Damage and higher HPs. I know I run my Am Assaults now much more than my Cal suits. They can live through a charge shot from a Viziam or last more than 0.5 seconds versus a Carthium. Then I have time to retreat and heal up. When I am in my cal suits its just melted and no retreat. You could make the delay zero and the recharge 1000, but if you die before it kicks in its just useless numbers. Not a big fan of nerfing everything, but simply adjusting the numbers for after an encounter is not going to fix the issue. I can kill at longer ranges with a Scrambler or Assault Scrambler than I can with my ARR with less recoil, and larger clip size. Not to mention I have 300 more Ehp. So the balance is not going to be found in just the suits, and especially not in just the recharge rate and delay. |
Bradric Banewolf
Titans of Phoenix
Damage LLC
1
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Posted - 2015.09.23 21:06:00 -
[14] - Quote
If you put dmg mods in lows and highs you open up a can of worms you wouldn't like?!
As far as the shield tankers go I've always said players are trying to get blood out of a turnip. They're not running it as it was intended, which is fine as we're free to fit as we please, but don't get angry when that fitting and plays type doesn't work?!
Shield suit's don't need damage mods from their primary range, and their weapons are much stronger to compensate for the distance in my opinion. We always want to focus only on one aspect of a situation without factoring in all the variables.
The rail rifle kills! Good! I find that a Cal assault can kill most armor suit's terribly fast with one, without dmg mods! A surprising fact, for those who know him, might be that my buddy Jesus Chrysler almost never ran dmg mods! Slayer right? I know! He had the Krins, but never specced into them not one point! He said he didn't need them! His philosophy was that he would use speed, shields, and shield regen to attack and re-attack targets. He took cover OFTEN! He could kill any player 1 v 1!
If a 18 yr old can figure it out so can we!
One of the many things I learned from him about shields while he was playing was that you weren't meant to tank and take direct dmg! You specialized in flanking and attacking from range!
The problem with most shield players is they are armor players at heart, but want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to be close quarters fighters, but when the fight gets really CQC they wanna run back to long range?!
CCP has done a great job with the dropsuits far more than they have with the weapons. The dropsuits attributes all compliment them very well. They tried to make the weapons an extension of the dropsuit, and have done fairly well.
The Caldari, being the ultimate shield tanker, tend to fight best with long range weapons. Even with the long range hmg. They fire, take cover, recover, and fire more all from range.
The Gallente reps armor fast, and move from cover to cover quickly. What they lack in stamina and ranged weapons they make up for in sprint speed capability and hard hitting weaponry.
The amarr is also ranged weaponry, but armored and slower than the caldari. They have tremendous stamina though so they can run for longer period of time to adventageous positions. They excel in precision fire, and point protection.
The min is lightly shielded and armored, but extremely fast with break glass devastation capabilities and weapons! Not built to take a beating, but highly equipped to deliver one quickly!
Now us mercs like to mix and match, but expect the concoction we come up with to be only strong with no weaknesses lol!
If you take the suit into an unfamiliar territory expect unfamiliar results lol!
I will agree that the scrambler kills shield suit's major fast, but so does armor weapons to armor.
TL:DR
Armor doesn't need to be nerfed, but shields don't need to be buffed because players are using the suit for everything it wasn't intended for.
"Anybody order chaos?"
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One Eyed King
Nos Nothi
12
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Posted - 2015.09.23 22:51:00 -
[15] - Quote
Armor and Shields aren't the only modules.
I would hate to see both shields and armor so dominant that there is no room for EWAR, biotics, or damage mods in the discussion.
This is my concern with saying Armor isn't OP.
We can say and hope that it isn't, but I hope you are equally willing to consider the possibility of HP gaining so much efficacy that it marginalizes suits not primarily geared towards HP tanking, such that Heavies become overly dominant, Assaults need to majorly stack HP just to compete, and Logis, Scouts, and Commandos that aren't able to stack enough HP are simply left to wilt.
I am not saying that I believe that simply buffing shields will inevitably result in an viable play styles being relegated HP only outfits, but I do think it is a possibility. What I would hate to see is an imbalance created, and an entrenched group that refuses to give up their broken system.
Former CEO of the Land of the BIind.
Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
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