DUST Search - So, let me get this right...

Operative 1174 Uuali wrote:

Press Attache wrote:

Cesar Geronimo wrote:

Press Attache wrote:

Death Shadow117 wrote:

That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R

So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it?

No; just that there has to be better, more analytical metrics to accurately measure player performance than the long outdated KDR... Nevermind the fact that KDR in most cases doesn't give a true accounting of a player's skill, since it is ridiculously easy to rig, pad and/or boost that number, and with today's gamers has become much more of an ends rather than a means...

So because it isn't a useful stat on its own we should just remove it?

This is a fixed player count lobby shooter, and being able to kill your opponent counts more than most other things. Some people may not like that, but it is a pretty hard fact. There are exceptions, but those prove the rule rather than negate it.

In any scenario where you have two identical logis, the one who can slay better is the one you want in your PC team, because they are better than the guy who can only rep or slap down hives.

K/D is not the be all end all of stats, but it does matter. People who say it doesn't are ignorant of the game rules.

Yeah folks, there are rules! Also, no. Reducing this game to just killing is what ruins it. I want the guy on my team who does his job with his role. Let the assaults and commandos do the killing. I want the heavy guarding the point, the logi repping or seeing who needs repping or keeping the links refreshed. I want the scout scouting. I want the MD guy or tank performing area of denial.

Killing is incidental to this game and the bigger picture. Even in ambush you win because of all the other factors at play that allow you to keep you assaults and heavies up and in an advantageous position so they can kill.

The problwm with this game is it is way to easy foe people to see it as just a simple run and gun thing because that is what matches can easily get reduced to.


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Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 13:30:00 - [1] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 14:05:00 - [2] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: Press Attache wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it? nvm maybe we should buff your spelling first Yeah because auto correct isn't a thing. Glad that you had to resort to pointing out typos, I guess even you know that your argument is worthless. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:24:00 - [3] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: Press Attache wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: Press Attache wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it? nvm maybe we should buff your spelling first Yeah because auto correct isn't a thing. Glad that you had to resort to pointing out typos, I guess even you know that your argument is worthless. So you're saying that padding kd is a valid way of aying your good? That's like saying ****** killed 6 million Jews with his bare hands. Do you see the problem? Saying something is a valid metric is not the same as saying that having a high k/d means you are good. What it means is that like any other stat is can be helpful in assessing someone when used in concert with other information. Your spurious Hilter reference shows you lack enough sophistication to grasp that. Your comparison is completely invalid, because not only do you not follow the correct analogy( Hilter hadma great K/D, therefore he was a good player), but you are also attempting to poison the well with such a reference. So -1 to you for not only making a bad reference, but for blatantly being fallacious about it. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 16:29:00 - [4] - Quote Cesar Geronimo wrote: Press Attache wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it? No; just that there has to be better, more analytical metrics to accurately measure player performance than the long outdated KDR... Nevermind the fact that KDR in most cases doesn't give a true accounting of a player's skill, since it is ridiculously easy to rig, pad and/or boost that number, and with today's gamers has become much more of an ends rather than a means... So because it isn't a useful stat on its own we should just remove it? This is a fixed player count lobby shooter, and being able to kill your opponent counts more than most other things. Some people may not like that, but it is a pretty hard fact. There are exceptions, but those prove the rule rather than negate it. In any scenario where you have two identical logis, the one who can slay better is the one you want in your PC team, because they are better than the guy who can only rep or slap down hives. K/D is not the be all end all of stats, but it does matter. People who say it doesn't are ignorant of the game rules. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 17:26:00 - [5] - Quote Operative 1174 Uuali wrote: Press Attache wrote: Cesar Geronimo wrote: Press Attache wrote: Death Shadow117 wrote: That right there is the reason dust doesn't deserve to have a K/D R So a valid metric should be thrown out because some noon doesn't understand it? No; just that there has to be better, more analytical metrics to accurately measure player performance than the long outdated KDR... Nevermind the fact that KDR in most cases doesn't give a true accounting of a player's skill, since it is ridiculously easy to rig, pad and/or boost that number, and with today's gamers has become much more of an ends rather than a means... So because it isn't a useful stat on its own we should just remove it? This is a fixed player count lobby shooter, and being able to kill your opponent counts more than most other things. Some people may not like that, but it is a pretty hard fact. There are exceptions, but those prove the rule rather than negate it. In any scenario where you have two identical logis, the one who can slay better is the one you want in your PC team, because they are better than the guy who can only rep or slap down hives. K/D is not the be all end all of stats, but it does matter. People who say it doesn't are ignorant of the game rules. Yeah folks, there are rules! Also, no. Reducing this game to just killing is what ruins it. I want the guy on my team who does his job with his role. Let the assaults and commandos do the killing. I want the heavy guarding the point, the logi repping or seeing who needs repping or keeping the links refreshed. I want the scout scouting. I want the MD guy or tank performing area of denial. Killing is incidental to this game and the bigger picture. Even in ambush you win because of all the other factors at play that allow you to keep you assaults and heavies up and in an advantageous position so they can kill. The problwm with this game is it is way to easy foe people to see it as just a simple run and gun thing because that is what matches can easily get reduced to. Killing is not incidental to the game, it is integral. There is no game mode that is won by the most resupplies or the most reps given, or the most revives. Those actions all help, and their contribution can be great, but the fact remains that killing matters. It isn't everything, and I explicitly stated that, but the t does matter. It's funny that you mention ambush with a horrible argument. What are the conditions for winning ambush? Killing the enemy clones before they kill yours. Logis telling and reviving help, but if you can't kill, all the reps in the world don't mean squat. You seem to not even grasp that, which is kind of sad. So, once again, killing matters, k/d matters. They are not the only thing, but they are critical to success. BTW, when I say in the post that you quote that killing is not the end of the discussion, but it matters, and the some sentence of your response tries to mischaracterize my response as killing is the only thing you show that you didn't even read my post, you just saw something you didn't like and formed a response to an argument I didn't even make. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 17:37:00 - [6] - Quote Xeriphem wrote: Press Attache wrote: In any scenario where you have two identical logis, the one who can slay better is the one you want in your PC team, because they are better than the guy who can only rep or slap down hives. I agree with this statement in the case of PC. But in pubs, that are supposed to be for fun, not-so-much. In FW, to a slightly higher degree I tend to agree, but just like in pubs, not-so-much. I think it matters more in pubs, where you can only bring 3 people with you. Let's say we have two Logis, both really nice people, great team players. The only difference between them is one can kill and the other one has no gungame. If you only have one slot in squad left, who do you choose? I would take the guy who can get kills, because if he is the last guy alive he can kill the threat and revive everyone, or throw down a juicy link for the squad. Now if I have to choose between a douche who is a slayer and a buddy who is horrid but a great person, I'll pick the nice person, but that is not based on skills, but attitude. But in like for like situation where both people are identical aside from gungame, only someone who wants to lose would take the objectively worse logi. Would you disagree? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 19:25:00 - [7] - Quote Xeriphem wrote: No I would not disagree in a situation like that. This is a slightly different scenario though. I was running solo that morning before any corp mates were online and playing. I wanted to get a few matches in before downtime. This mail came from someone I didn't know. Not even sure if I did or did not do something for him. In my opinion he was probably upset because I took "his" third place spot without getting as many or more kills than him. But I don't know that for sure, just conjecture at this point. I didn't take the time to look and see where he finished in the standings. This match ended about 15 minutes before the top of the hour and the start of downtime (6:00 AM I my case) and I wanted to get another ambush going before I ran out of time. The person who sent you an email was an idiot, pretty sure everyone can agree on that. The responses I made were in regard to the oft stated(and wrong) idea that K/D doesn't matter, but I appreciate your reasoned response. Keep your logi work up. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 19:29:00 - [8] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: the hypocrite and spelling errors are strong with this one... Sorry I didn't put a space in between gun and game, but there is no hypocrisy in the post you quoted. And hypocrisy is the word you are looking for. You can call someone a hypocrite, or they are being hypocritical, but a statement does not contain or display hypocrite. Also, trying to deride someone for spelling isn't wise when you don't properly punctuate or capitalize words and sentences. That would be hypocritical of you. That is how you use the word, for future reference. Death Shadow117 wrote: If that logi has his gun out and is stealing kills from you he is not repping you to keep you alive therefore id take the logi that is doing his job and running the 3 r's at least not running around trying to kill people. This shows you didn't read my post at all, just got mad that I made an argument that unless you are a fool you would have to agree with, and that makes you rage, knowing I am right. Death Shadow117 wrote: Secondly I'd take the ***** and mute him that's what we used to do with champeen dillon when he was squadded with us. He might be an ***** but at least he can be a distraction for me to run behind the enemy and hack the point while they're dealing with him. That's because you are a scrub and need slayers to carry you. Sucks to be you I guess. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 19:34:00 - [9] - Quote Daemonn Adima wrote: Press Attache is our resident delusional narcissist. He's read some gaming articles by developers so he knows better than everyone how the game should be played and how we should play it. If we don't play by his standards, we are scrubs to him. He'll basically come in to any post trying to spout his opinion as if he's god. Get over self Press Attache. You're annoying. Having a conversation about your mindset makes me a narcissist? Stating that killing matters in a First Person Shooter makes me delusional? Please continues to use words that you cannot define. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 129	Posted - 2015.09.21 19:38:00 - [10] - Quote Cesar Geronimo wrote: I'm not saying it should be thrown out, but it should be taken into consideration with other metrics to gauge true player efficiency... Yes, eliminating the enemy is a big part of team success, but it isn't the only part... This isn't a new concept; I've personally been campaigning for better metrics in shooters for probably a decade (and over the years some games have started to dabble in them a little)...The problem is proper implementation would require a metric shitload of mathematical analysis, debate, and millions of lines of new code, and at present game developers don't have the budget, manpower, or time to adopt them... Absolutely more metrics would be great, I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but anyone who says killing and not dying doesn't matter in a first person shooter has to be able to defend their position, which in most cases is not going to be an easy argument to win. I would love if we had easily accessible stats like most common weapon, average life span, war points per death, squad lead points, kill from orbitals, average assists per kill, and more stats besides those. Of course the stats we have now paint an incomplete picture, but it is what we have to work with, and people who try to dismiss K/D in a first person shooter should be argued against until they can make a valid case. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.

Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 20:08:00 - [11] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: KDR is something tryhards strive for in this game. Yes killing is important, however helping the team achieve victory by not killing and being support is just as important if not more. You are delusional to think that KDR is the end all and be all stat in this game. I don't judge someones skill in this game ny KDR, but teamwork. Also you are an annoying prick who is always full of himself. Go back to stroking your epeen. In post #16 and #24 I say it is not the be all end all stat. That you then try and say that I am saying it is all that matters shows a blatant disregard for what I have actually typed. That is a shameful tactic in a debate. That you say killing is important shows that you actually agree with my point, but because you don't like me you want to imagine I said something else so that you could make your attempt at a counter argument. To a point I did not make. Its funny, you said yesterday that a scrub was someone who lied. Guess what you just did with this post, you intentionally misrepresented what I said in order to throw an insult out. That would be lying, so enjoy being a scrub, by your own mistaken definition. Whats funny is that the corp ad in your sig lists a K/D standard for being on your PC team. I guess K/D matters to certain people above you. How does it feel to make yourself out to be an ass because you can't refute my arguments? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 20:27:00 - [12] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: So instead of trying to calmly discuss any of my points, you publicly insult me and accuse me of not liking you. As well as put down the corp I am apart of. You also carry on like a disgruntled 12 year old. Like I said in the other thread, put your epeen away, no one wants to see it. What points? You agreed with me that killing matters. Nothing to discuss. You claimed that not killing matters more(which is kind of odd, because not killing actually doesn't help) Everyone plays support. If support was a non killing role logis wouldn't have guns. So your point isn't even a point. I didn't put down your corp, just pointed out they have a K/D requirement. How that is an insult only you know. I didn't insult you, because I don't think you are a scrub. However, as YOU defined scrub as a liar, and you lied about what I said, YOU CALLED YOURSELF A SCRUB, I just pointed it out. Not my fault that you define a scrub to be behaviour that you then later choose to engage in. And clearly you don't like me, because you have lied about what I say, and then called me at various times an annoying prick and a loser. You talk sh*t, you get hit. That's how the world works. You don't like it, keep my name out of your mouth. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 21:02:00 - [13] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Logis have guns to defend themselves not to kill. The point of a logistics role is to support the team and be a force multiplier and not a slayer. Slayer logis are a cancer in the game.i know this first hand as I spent the first 8 months of playing this game as a logi. A logi that has a kdr of less than 1 can still be better than a slayer with a kdr above 2 depending on how they act as a support. There have been matches where I have gone 44/3 because I had a logi with me that went 0/4 with ocer 4000 wp. That logi kept the team alive with reps, kept them stocked with ammo kept uplinks active and revived people. Had he spent his time trying to kill, the team would of suffered greatly. So again to restate my point: Killing is not important if you are a support role. Saying that all roles can be support is not true. A sentinel cannot be a support role due to their lack of equipment and the fact that they are made to be point defense slayers. A commando and an assault can provide scans, uplinks and hives, however running with a reptool on those suits is a waste as they are mainly slayer roles. Therefore their equipment must be geared to help their efficacy with killing. Scouts are Scouts, meant to infiltrate and assassinate. Running support items on them is again meaningless. Also it is known that even with a kdr restriction for a PC team, logis have lower restrictions when it comes to kdr. This has been true since the beginning. This is not related to the argument I made. Posts 15, 16 and 24 contain my essential thesis, please read those and quote them to construct your counter arguments. If you want to have a debate about the importance of teamwork, or at what weight you should assign your logis in a team composition, that should be another thread. The crux of my argument in this thread was that K/D matters in a lobby based shooter with a limited player count, and that although there are exceptions, they prove the rule rather than negate it. Your argument in the quoted post above has very little to do with that, and in some places veers wildly off topic. However, I will address what you termed as your point: Killing is not important if you are in a support role. First I would say that you should check post #26, as I listed a response to that point already. Killing does matter for support roles, because there will be times when they are the last one alive, and if they cannot eliminate the threat, the squad goes back to square one, but if they can, they can then get their needle out and bring the squad back up at the point of contact. So even though killing is not their primary function, their ability to kill does matter. Consider the hypothetical from post 26, and ask yourself who would you rather have in your squad, the logi who can't shoot or the one who can. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 21:38:00 - [14] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: You lack reading comprehension. OK, and you lack the proper fundamentals of debate. You have not disproved my thesis in any way shape or form. That you started your post of with an insult shows you have an inherent lack of civility and refuse to debate in good faith. Instead of addressing any of the points I have raised, instead of referring to anything I have said, you merely restated your mistaken case. At no point did I refer to slaying in any of my reference posts, so you are attempting to divert the argument to a totally different topic. Your summation proves that we are not talking about the same topic, and that you cannot even address what is a simple thesis is rather funny. That you then wonder why I get argumentative with people like you confounds me. You should go and sign up for a high school debate class, it would do you a world of good, and save me from having to try to educate you in how to form an argument, and especially a counter argument. I bet when people are talking about the relative strength of representative democracy you stand up and shout "But I think pancakes make the best breakfast!" and expect them to nod in solemn agreement as if you contributed. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 133	Posted - 2015.09.21 21:50:00 - [15] - Quote Jonny D Buelle wrote: Okay I'm done. You really are just a 12 year old. Really? So because you can't focus on the totality of my argument, and want to focus on the exceptions, which I acknowledge, I'm a twelve year old? My thesis: Being able to kill matters. K/D can be used as a valid metric for comparing players against each other, taken with other information. That thesis has been repeatedly stated in this very thread. In the posts, numbered which I provided you with. Your response: But logis! Logis logis logis. You don't even think that that would be the exception to the killing matters rule. You don't even consider that there are exceptions to the exception, namely gal logis that don't provide team support more than 50% of their uptime. And when you are called to task for not being on point you throw up your hands, toss out a limp **** insult and walk off because you don't even want to admit that the general thesis, which you plainly agree with, is correct. You want to call me a child, but I am willing to defend my position, and you aren't even capable of understanding my arguments so you simply regurgitate a singular point, one already covered in my argument, and pretend you are contributing something of value. And then when you don't get your way you stomp out in a petulant fashion. So thanks for nothing. I really hope no one in your real life ever depends on you to actually understand something that is written down. Clearly you just can't do it. This is why I don't tolerate or coddle idiots. Because you give them a chance, and a little benefit of the doubt, and they do nothing with their chance, just crap the bed and act like that was an achievement. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 137	Posted - 2015.09.22 01:36:00 - [16] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: Press you claim you're not a hypocrite yet every turn your calling people scrubs and insulting them all the while your criticizing them for doing the same. You have a god complex and this post proves it. Now im not saying it's bad to have a god complex but when im being a hypocrite I'll admit it or if im wrong I'll admit it. Yes I did insult your spelling and am not sorry for it and when I said your being a hypocrite ... Guess what im a hypocrite too but hey I admitted it you seem to have a problem admitting when your wrong and (just like the bible) you contradict yourself at every turn yet still say that you've been speaking in a straight line and when we try to call you on it you say that were reading wrong and refer to earlier posts which contradict your statements. I might act like im god but at least I'll admit it I might be wrong but at least I'll admit it I might be a hypocrite but at least I'll admit it... Admit when you're wrong and get over it everyone is wrong at some point and this game would benefit more from removal of kd than it would otherwise and while you hide in your tank all day you won't admit it cause your kd is the only thing that seems to matter to you. Please post where I criticised anyone for calling someone else a scrub. Then provide evidence where I contradict myself. Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.
Press Attache The Office of The Attorney General 137	Posted - 2015.09.22 01:39:00 - [17] - Quote I feel bad for anybody in Johnny b's corp. That guy is in leadership lol? Forum representative for Mr. Hybrid Vayu: The Attorney General.