DUST Search - ADS sucks

BARAGAMOS wrote:

Vulpes Dolosus wrote:

I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win."

My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers.

Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Swarms are fine. They are not point and win by any means. They leave you completely vulnerable to both the unit you are firing on and the entire enemy team. You also have to either be a commando, or carry no other light weapon to defend yourself while you get into position to take down an ADS. I like the idea of lock on warnings. I see drop ships crashed ten times more often than I see them shot down. So, the issue seems to be pilot skill not AV prowess.

I for one don't want sky tanks, and they are already difficult to deal with. It takes a specific weapon to scare them off or kill them. That window is already narrow. Taking away swarms by nerfing them leaves no counter play. That would lead to many games with a flock of sky tanks pushing ground units off the map or into buildings.

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MONKEY CHEEKS The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 20	Posted - 2015.09.20 01:07:00 - [1] - Quote swarm OP.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 213	Posted - 2015.09.20 01:14:00 - [2] - Quote MONKEY CHEEKS wrote: swarm OP. Good. Because getting shot by a ADS really SUCKS... They are not meant to be flying tanks. They hit and run. If not they die in flames.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 957	Posted - 2015.09.20 01:49:00 - [3] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: MONKEY CHEEKS wrote: swarm OP. Good. Because getting shot by a ADS really SUCKS... They are not meant to be flying tanks. They hit and run. If not they die in flames. Lvl 5 minmando maxed swarms and warbarge with triple damage mods. Some drop like files... I've also spent a whole round against a single ads that did moves I thought were impossible. My wife was watching and was like htf did he avoid that? Ever thought the learning curve was just high? Also did a round with an alt with no AV skill... Couldn't even break a incubus into armor. Most pilots are garbage... Much like infantry. I can't count the times I've seen multiple people go 0-20+ in a single round.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 213	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:11:00 - [4] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: BARAGAMOS wrote: MONKEY CHEEKS wrote: swarm OP. Good. Because getting shot by a ADS really SUCKS... They are not meant to be flying tanks. They hit and run. If not they die in flames. Lvl 5 minmando maxed swarms and warbarge with triple damage mods. Some drop like files... I've also spent a whole round against a single ads that did moves I thought were impossible. My wife was watching and was like htf did he avoid that? Ever thought the learning curve was just high? Also did a round with an alt with no AV skill... Couldn't even break a incubus into armor. Most pilots are garbage... Much like infantry. I can't count the times I've seen multiple people go 0-20+ in a single round. I think that's the issue as well. The ADS takes a skilled pilot to operate, and when they are in it then the ADS is OP. On the other hand, if the pilot is bad/inexperienced then swarms seem OP. My experience is for the most part you can't pop them if they hit and run, if they get confused and think they are unkillable flying tanks they end up here crying about swarms.
Death Shadow117 Wolf Pack Special Forces Rise Of Legion. 736	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:17:00 - [5] - Quote what about buffing ads' but put a limit to 1 per team so they are forced to either wait for hardners etc. To recarge instead of calling and then recalling the burned out one.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 957	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:34:00 - [6] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: what about buffing ads' but put a limit to 1 per team so they are forced to either wait for hardners etc. To recarge instead of calling and then recalling the burned out one. The recharge time is significantly lower as you skill up. Basic 90 sec, proto with skills 37.5 With mine I run two adv by the time one is gone you fire the next, recalling is unnecessary.
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 213	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:39:00 - [7] - Quote Death Shadow117 wrote: what about buffing ads' but put a limit to 1 per team so they are forced to either wait for hardners etc. To recarge instead of calling and then recalling the burned out one. What about just removing them all together... Seems easier, but if not they don't need any buffing. A good pilot seldom dies in one, and the risk to reward needs to be there. They are immune to small arms fire, so swarms need to bring them down. If not they really are unkillable sky tanks. I know there are some times when you get crushed as an ADS because two or three guys on the other team have great AV, but any play style runs into that every few games. ADS are great for clearing roof campers, and harassing ground pounders. If played that way they do really well, and occasionally have amazing games. If they try to force the issue by playing into a team of AV fits like they are an Apache Helicopter then they get destroyed and the player needs to change their tactics up. That's just like an infantry suit. You better bet if I run into a bunch of scrambler rifles that I am going to not run my Cal assaults. The ADS pilot has to adjust as well. Lots of AV means back to ground with a rifle.
Vulpes Dolosus Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:48:00 - [8] - Quote I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
BARAGAMOS Kinsho Swords Caldari State 213	Posted - 2015.09.20 02:58:00 - [9] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Swarms are fine. They are not point and win by any means. They leave you completely vulnerable to both the unit you are firing on and the entire enemy team. You also have to either be a commando, or carry no other light weapon to defend yourself while you get into position to take down an ADS. I like the idea of lock on warnings. I see drop ships crashed ten times more often than I see them shot down. So, the issue seems to be pilot skill not AV prowess. I for one don't want sky tanks, and they are already difficult to deal with. It takes a specific weapon to scare them off or kill them. That window is already narrow. Taking away swarms by nerfing them leaves no counter play. That would lead to many games with a flock of sky tanks pushing ground units off the map or into buildings.
HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 957	Posted - 2015.09.20 03:03:00 - [10] - Quote Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. You know missiles ( and rails ) can hit from far outside swarm range. And the splash damage from 3 proto missiles will kill almost any fit running swarms. Purposely que against a highly skilled pilot run anything but proto swarms and a minmando and see how long you last.

HOWDIDHEKILLME Dying to Reload 957	Posted - 2015.09.20 03:06:00 - [11] - Quote BARAGAMOS wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. Swarms are fine. They are not point and win by any means. They leave you completely vulnerable to both the unit you are firing on and the entire enemy team. You also have to either be a commando, or carry no other light weapon to defend yourself while you get into position to take down an ADS. I like the idea of lock on warnings. I see drop ships crashed ten times more often than I see them shot down. So, the issue seems to be pilot skill not AV prowess. I for one don't want sky tanks, and they are already difficult to deal with. It takes a specific weapon to scare them off or kill them. That window is already narrow. Taking away swarms by nerfing them leaves no counter play. That would lead to many games with a flock of sky tanks pushing ground units off the map or into buildings. This
Murder Medic Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 109	Posted - 2015.09.20 03:15:00 - [12] - Quote ADS v AV will never be balanced anymore because terrible AV players VASTLY outnumber skilled pilots, and the collective power of their whine has CCP drunk on fear. It is a very specific playstyle now that is entirely predictable for both the pilot and the AV. Guess Evolve isn't the only Running Simulator on the market.
Vulpes Dolosus Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.20 03:58:00 - [13] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. You know missiles ( and rails ) can hit from far outside swarm range. And the splash damage from 3 proto missiles will kill almost any fit running swarms. Purposely que against a highly skilled pilot run anything but proto swarms and a minmando and see how long you last. In terms of numbers, missiles only have 25m more range than a swarm, and Beacon's can match it. In real life (well, in game), people don't render at those distances, so landing a hit is pure chance or poor choice on the swarmer for standing in the same spot. Also, we lose 45% of the damage at those ranges. The max effective range of missiles is about 75ms. To assert that you can shoot rails at infantry any farther than directly on them is ridiculous. Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
TooMany Names AlreadyTaken Going for the gold 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 06:35:00 - [14] - Quote Every single time I bring out my Incubus, there's a Wyrkomi Minmando waiting for me... My sweet summer is gone.
EmperoR AjnaS Random Gunz Rise Of Legion. 517	Posted - 2015.09.20 06:49:00 - [15] - Quote I decided to skill into vehicles nd understood it is not soo easy just bcoz when we bring our vehicles .. All i see is the whole enemy team with aldin forges nd missile tanks I dont hve much sp in vehicles nd my tanks get popped in seconds Min loyalist Amarr ideology GÖÑGÖÑGÖÑGÖÑGÖÑGÖÑ
Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 2	Posted - 2015.09.20 07:34:00 - [16] - Quote If they could fix : invisible swarms, noclip swarms (these structures are there for a reason... seems not), 90-¦ turns.. etc it would look better. Modern society is lacking in empathy
Mejt0 Made in Poland... E-R-A 2	Posted - 2015.09.20 07:42:00 - [17] - Quote HOWDIDHEKILLME wrote: Vulpes Dolosus wrote: I agree the swarms need looked at but I don't think it's something as simple as a damage nerf. Something mechanically needs to change to require swarms to be more than just "point and win." My idea was to increase the initial lock time significantly, but allow addition shots to be fired without locks (it will have a modest rof though, close to what locking is now). This, along with adding things like lock warnings for pilots, will give the ADS a way to evade incoming damage through skilled flying rather than numbers. Also, check out my thread in Rookie Training Grounds titled 'Winged Mercs,' it's a (WIP) ADS guide and training thread. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. You know missiles ( and rails ) can hit from far outside swarm range. And the splash damage from 3 proto missiles will kill almost any fit running swarms. Purposely que against a highly skilled pilot run anything but proto swarms and a minmando and see how long you last. The entire battle. Minmando is one tough bastard. Eqiup jump mods and ADS will never kill you. Eqiup damage mods and everybody will panic. Infantry don't render at those distances. After 150m+ they are just a single pixel. BARAGAMOS wrote: Swarms are fine. They are not point and win by any means. They leave you completely vulnerable to both the unit you are firing on and the entire enemy team. You also have to either be a commando... What makes swarms not point and win? You point at a general direction of an A/DS, lock on, fire and forget. Commando has enough damage to take down fully HP stacked sentinel in no time. Taking out medium/light frames isn't that hard. Modern society is lacking in empathy
Derrith Erador Fatal Absolution 3	Posted - 2015.09.20 08:05:00 - [18] - Quote . 99% of what Derrith says is stupidity. -D3lta Blitzkrieg Oh yeah?! Well, I love redheads.
TIGER SHARK1501 Savage Bullet RUST415 402	Posted - 2015.09.20 13:53:00 - [19] - Quote MONKEY CHEEKS wrote: swarm OP. Like Baragamos indicated. You gotta do hit and run attacks. Multiple swarms take anything down easily.
Count- -Crotchula TasteTheTamsen 1	Posted - 2015.09.20 14:43:00 - [20] - Quote i loved taking down firebird star's dropship earlier then shooting him in the back with a bolt pistol as he tries to run away at 6.7m/s in an ak.0 haha YouTube!

MONKEY CHEEKS The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 21	Posted - 2015.09.21 00:09:00 - [21] - Quote TIGER SHARK1501 wrote: MONKEY CHEEKS wrote: swarm OP. Like Baragamos indicated. You gotta do hit and run attacks. Multiple swarms take anything down easily. *run and run because there is no time to hit once you come inside that range.
Mobius Wyvern Fatal Absolution 6	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:15:00 - [22] - Quote I managed to go 12/3/0 today with my Python. No one really brought PRO AV onto the field. There was one guy using a CBR-7, but that was about it. Amidst the blue skies A link from past to future The sheltering wings of the protector
Vicious Minotaur 2	Posted - 2015.09.21 01:17:00 - [23] - Quote ADS is quite useful. How am I supposed to snipe from the redline without it? I am a minotaur. Beware my poop.
FireBirdStar Dead Man's Game 29	Posted - 2015.09.21 04:30:00 - [24] - Quote Count- -Crotchula wrote: i loved taking down firebird star's dropship earlier then shooting him in the back with a bolt pistol as he tries to run away at 6.7m/s in an ak.0 haha Haha ..... my Team was ****, Not even 1 Bluedot help me to Cover the Point . I lost think 2.5mil ISK but nvm :D Born Gallente, Pure Caldari


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I am a minotaur.