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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.16 13:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:I think it's balanced. Scouts with 1 damp can avoid all but focused scans. Scouts are the only ones that should even worry about scans. And damps can beat scans anyways. Fit more damps and the focused can't do anything.
It takes two damps on a Minmatar or Amarr scout to avoid all but focussed scans (not counting passives).
Only the Gallente scout can avoid Gal logi focussed scan without an active cloak. With the addition of decloak delay, cloak blindness and the nerf to activation times, scouts need to spend a lot of time decloaked, particularly when going on the offensive. So the cloak is no longer a terribly viable means of dampening.
I disagree that only scouts need to worry about scans. Often it is useful for other suits, particularly assaults, to avoid scans.
I also disagree that you need to be able to scan a scout (or any other suit) in order for it to be balanced. Though I accept that this is the purpose of the focussed scanner, and I'm not against a option to combat stealth suits with highly precise scans. So long as there is sufficient trade-off for the increased precision.
Scouts being OP in 1.8 had little to do with them more easily hiding from scans than now, and much more to do with all the myriad of other nerfs since then.
The systems are in place for counter-play between scanning and stealth. The question is, is it balanced? Are the trade-offs set at a level that encourages varied play styles.
In my opinion it comes down to two questions.
Question 1: Is the required level of dampening to avoid non-focussed scans a balanced trade-off? Currently it takes 3 (out of 8) slots for an assault, and 2 (or 1 if bonused) slots (out of 6) for a scout. Would 2 slots (assaults) and 1 or 0 (scouts) be a more worthwhile trade for the benefit you gain, and therefore promote more varied fittings and combat styles? Or would it be OP? This could be achieved by swapping the Gal logi bonus from precision to cooldown reduction, for example.
Question 2: Assuming a focussed scanner (Gal-Logi, or otherwise) has the precision to detect pretty much anybody, are the downsides to using this over a different scanner sufficient? Would they still be sufficient if other scanners were nerfed like in question 1? Would/is it sufficiently worthwhile playing the stealth/damped game, whilst still being scannable by focussed scanners in their current state? Do the drawbacks need to be increased? I suggest nerfing the range to 50m, but buffing the precision down to 15db if the Gal logi precision bonus replaced. Would that improve balance, or render focussed scanners obsolete? |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 13:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Potential alternative to Q1:
Keep profile, precision and dampener investment levels in place. Tune active scan mechanics such that "up time" becomes less prolific and more active effort and risk exposure are required on the part of the operator.
Certainly. Options such as held beam scans or short snapshot scans. Though these ideas are less about encouraging counter play, and more about making scanning less something to worry about.
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Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
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Posted - 2015.09.16 18:25:00 -
[3] - Quote
Joel II X wrote:Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:Edit- you want to balance this stuff????!!!!!
INCREASE CLOAK DAMP BONUS. Honestly it shouldn't take more than 1 damp. The moment it does, you sacrifice your whole suits effectiveness. The cloak should be buffed. Lol get a load of this guy! Anywho, every scout except the Minmatar can get under the focused, if I remember correctly.
My earlier post explains the situation. It's at the start so you don't have to read all of it. |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 19:46:00 -
[4] - Quote
Come on Tesfa, profile dampeners do reduce combat effectiveness, they take up a module slot.
To be honest, I'm not completely sure the current dampener requirment to hide from scans is too much. However, based on the threads on the forums recently, it does seem that a fair number of people feel it is. And it's not about scouts specifically. Saxonmish is annoyed that he has to fit 3 damps on his assault to hide, as are plenty of others. There really isn't much difference between a dampened scout and a dampened assault. Look at these fits for comparison:
CQC Stealth Min Assault
CQC Stealth Gal Scout
Swapping one damp on each of those suits for something else is unlikely to be OP, especially since they are still vulnerable to the focussed scanner and some passives. Being undetected is a good advantage, but it's not the I-win button some people seem to think it is.
As for focussed scanners, I completely agree with changing strategies and counter-play. If you are in a stealthy suit, and find yourself getting foccused scanned, time to try a different strategy, no problem. Though I'd like to see some of your fits for scouts who are effective whilst scanned. I suspect you'd be better off with a different suit. The only thing I can think of would be a speed hacking Min scout. However, speed hacking is quite difficult when scanned. So I probably wouldn't use a scout.
That's ok though, but the counter-play needs to continue. What can be done to make the enemy scan user drop the focussed scanning for a different scanner? A focussed scanner is still pretty useful for scanning non-stealthed suits. The logi is probably quite happy sticking with it.
If there was a bit more of a drawback for using the focussed, such as my suggestion of shorter range, then once it became clear the enemy had given up on stealth, the logi wouldn't want to stick with the short range, long cooldown, foccussed scanner. He'd want to switch back to something better for providing general recon.
The other team would then find themselves being scanned more often and noticibly further out. Time to try stealth again to get in under the scans.
At least, this is the ideal I have in mind. As I said, I'm not too upset with the current balance. I think it could be improved, but it's not terrible. Scouts could do with a cloak buff to get them a bit more competetive (thinking delay or shimmer, rather than dampening). But otherwise, most of my comments on the subject are prompted by what others are saying.
In terms of fitting variety. It would be nice to see more assaults using dampeners. And raising the required profile for stealth would make passive scanning (which generally operates at higher db) more important. However I have seen some evidence of dampened assaults. There's a great PC vid of Silver from Random Gunz destroying a PC in a triple damped Min assault. He also says he feels it's much better than a scout (not saying I agree). |
Varoth Drac
Dead Man's Game
1
|
Posted - 2015.09.16 20:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think you'll find the myo users are generally assaults. |
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