DUST Search - Please stop the MD jumpers...

Aeon Amadi wrote:

Pretty certain Rattati was insinuating that until the cause for why stacking penalties aren't applying correctly that the fourth and fifth mods wouldn't be allowed to be fit, not that the stacking penalties aren't applying and thusly they are broken as a module. Remember that strafe speeds post-Uprising 1.5 were broken but this wound up being a beloved feature up until it became an issue and was brought back down in Warlords.

"As was plainly explained with the Myofibril mods, we wanted to increase the jumping height so that stacking 3 would allow to get on top of the large containers. The plan was for stacking penalties to take care of the rest, as the 4th and 5th module under stacking penalties add incrementally almost zero improvement under normal circumstances." ~ CCP Rattati

Stacking three currently allows players to get on top of the large containers, and only some suits as the size of frame (and perhaps even amount of armor plates) affects the jump height. That in mind, they are working exactly as designed as they just barely allow for that to happen, even with stacking penalties being broken. If the stacking penalties were fixed then the Myo's would likely have to be buffed to accomodate the previous design.

But again, there are other options that can be implemented without directly attacking the myos themselves. It is important to think outside of the box when balancing, especially if a part of the whole is working as intended. We can separate jump mods from melee mods, we can increase the dispersion of weapons when jumping, etc. Going straight for the myos is a knee jerk reaction.


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Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.18 17:47:00 - [1] - Quote Ghost Kaisar wrote: Cline MKP wrote: For the love of all things good and holy, please stop the MD jumpers. They are trash. The MD itself isn't bad, really. The Myos are the real problem. Players should not be able to jump about 15-20 ft or more. This is absurd. Can we please do something about this?! For the love of all things good and holy, please get some gun game. You are trash. The myos themselves aren't bad, really. These players are the real problem. Players should be able to aim at jumping targets, even if they jump 15-20 ft or more. This is absurd. Can you please do something about this? EDIT: Have your first like. Welcome to the Dust514 forums. EDIT EDIT: Before anyone says "LOL STFU Ghost, I bet you have no Gun Game at all" Here you go, take this guide and be enlightened. Myos break hit detection for many people, not to mention they completely break the gunplay of a tracking shooter by allowing an instant escape into the air in a close range 1v1 fight. Even CCP has said they are not working as intended because the stacking penalty is not appying as it should. Defending admittedly broken mechanics that have been called such by those who released them does nothing but paint you as someone who's simply looking for an excuse to argue a long settled debate. They are broken (and in my mind should be reverted to the simple melee modules they were previously until they can be fixed) and while when hit detection is on your side they can be countered, they still are used by full squads at a time. While one jumping fool may not be much of a threat, a squad of them is still a very broken and frustratingly broken tactic to deal with; especially for new players. Having said that, hello Ghost. I've missed sparring with you over the course of my vacation from Dust Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.18 19:25:00 - [2] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Baal Omniscient wrote: Defending admittedly broken mechanics that have been called such by those who released them does nothing but paint you as someone who's simply looking for an excuse to argue a long settled debate. Who settled the debate as broken, exactly? If a mechanic's stacking penalty isn't applying properly, it's broken. By reducing the number you can stack you drop the jump height, but you also don't fix the issues within the module. The fact that they are broken is to the best of my knowledge a forgone discussion. They are not as broken as they once were, but still broken as alluded to by CCP Rattati in the Warlords 1.1 hotfix notes: CCP Ratatti wrote: As was plainly explained with the Myofibril mods, we wanted to increase the jumping height so that stacking 3 would allow to get on top of the large containers. The plan was for stacking penalties to take care of the rest, as the 4th and 5th module under stacking penalties add incrementally almost zero improvement under normal circumstances. However, the stacking penalty does not work currently, and we havenGÇÖt found the cause. Until the cause has been found and a fix deployed, we will be limiting Myofibrils to 3 per loadout which is almost the same effect. It was silly fun while it lasted, but, ultimately not the designed intent. Except it isn't the same effect. Almost, but not really the same thing. You were meant to at max jump height be able to reach those heights mentioned in the quote, however since you only need 3 to do so (and be able to reach slightly more honestly) that leaves you with the opportunity to have free slots open while still maintaining the desired effect of the jump modules at maximum efficiency. I was thinking the broken status was obvious since the 4th and 5th module should have been negligible because of the reduction to the 2nd and 3rd which as far as I know do not occur. Please let me know if I am mistaken in this, I've been in and out of here for very large swaths of time and may have missed something, but to the best of my knowledge (and forum search abilities) this is the state of things: 3 mods stack without penalty providing somewhat more than the intended jump height. Which leads me to the other issues. As for the hit detection issues with it being broken, please correct me if I'm wrong because I have been a bit lax in actually breaking down and testing it, I had assumed it was a generally accepted fact except for those who defend the modules. It appears obvious to me and many others I've seen post about them that quite often hit detection suffers about as much (though perhaps not quite as often) as when shooting at the strafing jiggle. Not only this, but it allows for certain gunplay mechanics that were never intended in the game and throw off the regular basics of a fight, which I see as obvious since the jump height wasn't even a consideration in gunplay until it was pushed for long enough and hard enough to recieve attention. Lastly allow me to say that I am not against the idea of being able to get a jump bonus for suits that need it at the cost of a module slot that could be used for more survivability. I'm also not against even an equipment that would give you a jump boost. However the purpose for jump mods was origionally to increase players ability to traverse the map. The result was a very abuseable (and widely abused) ability that breaks the basic gunfight mechanics that the game was built around. When you put all of these together, or even any one of them on their own; whether or not anyone has said the exact words 'This is broken', I cannot help but see it as having been settled long ago that it was and is broken. And it has been said as quoted above (though I admit to a bit of a bending of phrasing) that as it is now is not how it was intended to be. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.18 20:48:00 - [3] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Pretty certain Rattati was insinuating that until the cause for why stacking penalties aren't applying correctly that the fourth and fifth mods wouldn't be allowed to be fit, not that the stacking penalties aren't applying and thusly they are broken as a module. Remember that strafe speeds post-Uprising 1.5 were broken but this wound up being a beloved feature up until it became an issue and was brought back down in Warlords. "As was plainly explained with the Myofibril mods, we wanted to increase the jumping height so that stacking 3 would allow to get on top of the large containers. The plan was for stacking penalties to take care of the rest, as the 4th and 5th module under stacking penalties add incrementally almost zero improvement under normal circumstances." ~ CCP Rattati Stacking three currently allows players to get on top of the large containers, and only some suits as the size of frame (and perhaps even amount of armor plates) affects the jump height. That in mind, they are working exactly as designed as they just barely allow for that to happen, even with stacking penalties being broken. If the stacking penalties were fixed then the Myo's would likely have to be buffed to accomodate the previous design. But again, there are other options that can be implemented without directly attacking the myos themselves. It is important to think outside of the box when balancing, especially if a part of the whole is working as intended. We can separate jump mods from melee mods, we can increase the dispersion of weapons when jumping, etc. Going straight for the myos is a knee jerk reaction. I agree it is a direct reaction to the item that caused the issue, however I am uncertain that it is an unwarrented reaction. While strafing, sprinting and using cover were all intended for this game, taking off like a bottle rocket when in a face to face gunfight with an opponent was not; and in the opinion of many it breaks the gunplay. An alternate method of accessing areas of the map I am all for, but not one that can completely corrupt the core gunplay. I'm all for tactical play. I'm all for team play. I'm all for opening up the map by allowing people to fit their suits to allow access to whatever parts of the map are available through sacrificing PG/CPU and slots, however I do not see how allowing a module to persist that has such a large impact on fights is justified for that purpose. A peice of equipment that looks and acts much like the cloak field but instead of turning you invisible boosts your jumping ability while activated would be just fine as long as it was balanced so that it could not be used directly to affect combat. Even applying an inverse penalty of jump speed to jump height so stacked modules produced something of a slow moon jump would be better: hit detection wouldn't be broken as easily, it couldn't be used as an easy means of escaping regular gunplay while simultaneously placing the opponent out of view and giving them easy access to headshots, and it still accomplishes the origional intent of the module which was map accessibility. While adding dispersion to weapons when airborne sounds good, it doesn't do a lot to change the fact that you can still drop MD rounds all around their feet or spray a constant stream of rounds directly down on them causing most impacts to be headshots. Seperating the modules will call for a replacement of the jump bonus with another bonus or an increase of the melee bonus, the first of which I would be more than happy to take, but it does not fix the issue of the gunplay brought about by the jumping module which would then be it's own module with probably reduced fitting costs due to the loss of the melee bonus. I'm all for solutions that do not harm gunplay, but as long as people can zip overhead in the middle of an engagement I really cannot see it as balanced with the rest of the game. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.18 21:35:00 - [4] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: How does it hurt gunplay, exactly, for any reason other than hit detection which has been a persistent issue since day one Baal Omniscient wrote: -snip- ...taking off like a bottle rocket when in a face to face gunfight with an opponent -snip- ...easy means of escaping regular gunplay while simultaneously placing the opponent out of view and giving them easy access to headshots... -snip- ...you can still drop MD rounds all around their feet or spray a constant stream of rounds directly down on them causing most impacts to be headshots... -snip- And yes, hit detection has been an issue since day one. But I do not see a need to prolong the life of a module that has an effect that can be much better balanced either by removing the hit detection issues by slowing it's jump speed or moving/changing it's effect in a way that prevent's it's intended map traversing ability to be used for combat purposes. As I recall it, melee people said 'buff our mod!' and other people said 'we need to be able to jump over these dumb rails and get around the maps better' and CCP said 'let's do both at once!'. The idea was great, however even after the hotfix the result wasn't 'I can get over the rail now!', it was 'if someone catches me by suprise, I can jump straight up and make them loose LoS and blast them on the way down while they try to spot me!' CQC is where it's the most noticeable, in fact I'd go as far as to say it's where it's mainly the problem. You sneak up on a scout with myos in a tight space, he jumps straight up, spins and blasts your face with a shotty or knives on the way back down. You sneak up on an assault or logi with them, same deal but typically with explosives. If nothing else and they just have a rifle/SMG/Pistol they still have a very clear shot at your head on the way down and are bound to land some shots on it before they land. It's an instant elevation advantage at the press of a button. In a regular gunfight at 20m you still have a quick way to break off your opponent's damage output on you for a few seconds while they reacquire their target, also quite likely causing them to lose ammo in the clip when you dissapear from in front of them as well as while they try to hit a flying target. Forcing your enemy to waste ammo in his clip and have to try to line up a shot on you again (without even bringing in the hit detection issues) has the same effect as eHP, extending your life expectancy. The intent of jump boosts was not extending life expectancy, it was map traversal at the cost of life expectancy (shield modules). It was tactical troop placement and rooftop clearing, not mega-bunny hops so an opponent could jump over your head and shoot you in the back while you try to follow their ascent to find them. Basically my argument is: This module is affecting combat and the combat of this game is not balanced to deal with the kind of gameplay this module is inflicting on it. Rather than changing the gameplay to adjust to the module, which would be a much more ardorous task, change the module to adjust to the gameplay. As we've been doing with every single other item in this game since the beta began. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.18 21:47:00 - [5] - Quote I'd love to continue this, but I'm living in Finland now and it's 12:45am and I've been drinking since noon. I bid you all a good night o7 Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.21 15:24:00 - [6] - Quote Cline MKP wrote: Pretty sure a CPM shouldn't say htfu, stfu or gtfo. You sgoukd argue both sides. In other words, be neutral. You, sir, are extremely bias. Not very good for a CPM. But what do I know. I just whine because people use bs exploits. But whatever. Have fun jumping. I wouldn't say he's being bias about it, it's rather that he see's it as a feature that needs to stay but needs to be balanced. I may not agree with him on the specifics, but we both agree that some changes need to be made to the current way it works to prevent it from being as exploitable as it is. Please don't allow his difference of opinion to not allow you to see his points. Edit: Meaning Aeon of course, as for my origional post.... Well Ghost is an irritating troll who just likes to start trouble Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 07:45:00 - [7] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Cline MKP wrote: Then be nice! I got the flu and it's test week at school, I'm admittedly a little antsy. I sincerely hope you pull through well on your tests and stomp out that flu soon, that's quite a stressful week you've got for yourself there. So of the options proposed (apart from outright removal) we have: - Add a penalty to the module (potential candidates, not necessarily good ones just listing): > Stamina > Stamina Regen > Speed > Weapon Damage > Increased PG/CPU Cost - Add a penalty to jump use in match (potential candidates, again just listing): > Stamina Cost Increase > Stamina Regen Reduction > Reduce Turn Speed while Mid-jump > Reduce In Air Speed > Lock Camera While Mid-air > Add Delay When Landing > Add a Wind Up Before Jump > Increase Damage Recieved While Mid-air > Lock Firing While Mid-air > Reduce Accuracy While Mid-air > Reduce RoF While Mid-Air - Shift the jump bonus to it's own module/equipment > If this is done with seperate modules, the jump bonus module will still need adjustments and the melee module will need a replacement for the jump boost as an additional bonus > If this is done with equipment then additional height could be added in exchange for reduced combat usages, melee modules will still need a replacement bonus Some combination of things would probably work best. I don't want to remove the jump boost from the game entirely as it opens up the map for more tactical options, I do however want to prevent it from being an overpowering factor in close quarters fights. I could go on and on listing the changes one could make to adjust them, but reaching for ideas will likely just pull even more unfair changes than some of these I've already listed. What do you see as the best and fairest changes or combination of changes to balance this module? Please try to make 3 different paths it could take if you can or come up with 3 of your own ideas. If you look at the 3 best methods for balancing this module from different perspectives, perhaps you can see where the groups involved overlap their choices. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 08:27:00 - [8] - Quote axis alpha wrote: I think the myos should keep the ability jump and melee strength. It has one offense ability and that's melee and has another ability and that's a tactical one, getting places that would not normally be accessible such as jumping wall or getting to high places. I think it should be stripped of being able to jump so high and ALSO be able to fire a weapon. But I'm not sure how that could be implemented. Since a lot of players jump and shoot (with out myos) Any of these would help with the jumping and firing issues: > Reduce Accuracy While Mid-air > Reduce RoF While Mid-Air > Lock Camera While Mid-air > Reduce Turn Speed while Mid-jump However it's a matter of which to use and how many to add. If it's your goal to allow normal jumping and shooting for those who don't use jump mods it gets a bit trickier. Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.
Baal Omniscient Qualified Scrub 2	Posted - 2015.09.22 11:27:00 - [9] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Assuming a stamina penalty, what would be a good round-about number? If the goal is to cut the number of jumps available with one bar of stamina, first we'd need to establish what is the acceptable number of jumps one can have. If at 3 myo mods you want one jump available and at one mod you want 3 jumps available then you would probably want to add a %stamina used penalty to each module. If say you have it set to 34% of your stamina used per jump per module, then with 3 modules you would use your entire stamina bar to jump once, at two modules you'd have 2 jumps and at 1 myo you'd have 3 jumps. If you want to make it possible for some suits to jump twice with three then you'll have to find a different formula. Alternatively you could have it cost xStamina extra per jump allowing for however many jumps you want available with the addition of cardiac regs and add a depleted stamina recharge delay penalty to prevent constant bunny hopping. If you wanted to completely limit any myo usage you could make it so that myo's immediately drain all stamina after one jump, but I think that's going way too far. There's a few ways to go about it, but it all really depends on what your goal ultimately is. What end result are you aiming for? More jumps at 3 myo's by sacrificing low slots to cardiac regs or a hard cap to the number of jumps depending on the number of myo mods equipped? Winmatar Assault, Proficiency 5 SMG's & Proficiency 5 Swarms Since Uprising 1.0 I GÖú Puppies (Gê¬n+Ç-´)GèâGöüGÿån+ƒ.*pâ+n+ín+ƒ.