DUST Search - Theorycrafting the Amarr Scout

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Luther Mandrix wrote:

Is it possible to give a suit a Bonus that only can be applied to one class of suits?
Amarr scout bonus plus whatever to Scan Precision to seeing light suits only and a General scan percison to the other classes of suits.That way it could be a scout killer without being a killer of all dropsuits.

Strong Scan Precision is as much about detecting/avoiding threats as it is sniffing out infiltrators. Fit to maximize their strength at EWAR, these units weigh in at 250HP-350HP. They must choose every fight very carefully, and their survival depends largely upon detecting and assessing threats before they themselves are detected.

Restricting the AM Scout's scans to focus only on other Scouts would hurt the AM Scout more than it'd help.

I'd say "torch" rather than reduce.

I've managed to get a sentinel really low on the damps (compared to normal, and there's no guarantee that a bonus to only pick up scouts would spot that fatfit. Adipem, you know the baseline scout stuff better than me.

And if my triple-damped amsent can't get under that baseline, then an assault surely can.


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Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.08.28 19:50:00 - [1] - Quote My two cents: Change the AM Scout bonus to a flat efficacy bonus to biotics. The Triathlete Scout. The Biotic Man. CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.08.29 13:36:00 - [2] - Quote Klubba Dkc2 wrote: If only range extender were good as they used to be, am scout would be quite useful. Buffing Range Extenders will benefit CA Scout and Logis more than the AM Scout. CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.08.29 14:22:00 - [3] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Sums up my original thoughts pretty well actually. I hadn't set my heart on biotics but that seems a solid option. Do we have any other suggestions for how the amscout might better perform? Discussed Ideas: * Find a way to improve his short-range / high-intensity scans * Recast as "biotic scout" by changing bonus to biotic efficacy Other Old Barbershop Ideas: * Ferro / Reactive Efficacy Bonus - The idea at the time was to give Scouts who like to tank armor a go-to option. * Uplink Bonus - This could work, but it potentially steps on Logi toes. * ScP Headshot and Dmg Bonus - Shoehorns the unit, but could be a fun and effective suit for pistol lovers An Aeon Amadi Idea: AM Scout gets to hack hostile equipment for +X WP per flip. I like it and Aeon likes it, which (if nothing else) makes it rare. CPM Sgt Kirk - On Community
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.08.30 19:54:00 - [4] - Quote Luther Mandrix wrote: Is it possible to give a suit a Bonus that only can be applied to one class of suits? Amarr scout bonus plus whatever to Scan Precision to seeing light suits only and a General scan percison to the other classes of suits.That way it could be a scout killer without being a killer of all dropsuits. Strong Scan Precision is as much about detecting/avoiding threats as it is sniffing out infiltrators. Fit to maximize their strength at EWAR, these units weigh in at 250HP-350HP. They must choose their fights very carefully, and their survival depends largely upon detecting and assessing threats before they themselves are detected. Restricting the AM Scout's scans to focus only on other Scouts would hurt the AM Scout more than it'd help.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 13	Posted - 2015.08.30 20:40:00 - [5] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Luther Mandrix wrote: Is it possible to give a suit a Bonus that only can be applied to one class of suits? Amarr scout bonus plus whatever to Scan Precision to seeing light suits only and a General scan percison to the other classes of suits.That way it could be a scout killer without being a killer of all dropsuits. Strong Scan Precision is as much about detecting/avoiding threats as it is sniffing out infiltrators. Fit to maximize their strength at EWAR, these units weigh in at 250HP-350HP. They must choose every fight very carefully, and their survival depends largely upon detecting and assessing threats before they themselves are detected. Restricting the AM Scout's scans to focus only on other Scouts would hurt the AM Scout more than it'd help. I'd say "torch" rather than reduce. I've managed to get a sentinel really low on the damps (compared to normal, and there's no guarantee that a bonus to only pick up scouts would spot that fatfit. Adipem, you know the baseline scout stuff better than me. And if my triple-damped amsent can't get under that baseline, then an assault surely can. Not sure what you're saying, Breakin. In case I was unclear, Luther's idea above would do more harm than good to the AM Scout. You can't hunt scouts if you're dead, and if you're blind to everything but Scouts, you'll definitely be dead. As for your heavy, 3 complex damps will get your scan profile under 28dB Active Scans as well as all outer-ring passive scans. If you're interested in passive scan values, here's breakdown: Google Doc. To the right of the first sheet is a summary of scan profiles for all unit types.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 01:02:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: I don't see how biotics man gives it a role. What will that bring to the table? What role needs lots of biotics? I mean it could be a nice lolfit suit, but what place would it have in competitive gameplay? Think Lightning xVx.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 12:44:00 - [7] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: what if the amscout's bonusing was for precision and range rather than precision and stamina? ^ FTFY. Back in HF Charlie, Rattati shuffled around Scout Bonuses to (1) help the under-utilized and lackluster AM Scout find a role, (2) ease pressure on the oft scanned and underperforming MinScout and (3) reign in the abundant and overperforming Caldari and Gallente Scouts. Pre-Charlie Scout Bonuses Gallente: Dampening and Range Caldari: Precision and Range Amarr: Stamina Minmatar: Hack and Slash Post-Charlie Scout Bonuses Gallente: Dampening and Precision Caldari: Range and Dampening Amarr: Precision and Stamina Minmatar: Hack and Slash The specific values of EWAR bonuses were set such that the former extremes achieved through min-maxing would yield more normalized results. For example, an AM or GA Scout running straight range extenders would now scan just shy of the best-in-class CA Scout fit with the same. The counter-infiltration function and the passive scan precision baseline -- now at a less potent 18dB -- were taken away from from the CA Scout and ceded to the shorter-range AM Scout. Lastly, profiles values were tuned such that all Scouts could reasonably beat this new precision baseline. Ultimately, Rattati's plan was to split the "Passive Scan Pie" between the AM and CA Scout; the AM would excel at short-range / high-intensity scans and the CA at long-range / low-intensity scans. His plan worked exceptionally well ... up until Falloff changed how scans work. Today, the AM Scout shares his diluted domain (short-range / high-intensity scans) with any unit which fits a precision enhancer or two. To answer your question -- "why not give the AM Scout a bonus to precision and range" -- well, we probably could but we'd have to find something new for the CalScout to do. I personally think it'd be a better idea to assign this role to the CA Scout and a new role to the AM Scout. Today's passive scans are no where near as strong as yesterday's; I'm of the opinion that we could safely give one a unit a bonus to both precision and range without upsetting balance or competitive meta.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 13:12:00 - [8] - Quote *The Ultimate Fix!* Scout Class Bonuses * Fitting Reduction to Cloak * Efficacy Bonus to Dampeners Scout Racial Bonuses * Gallente - Immune to "action penalties" to scan profile * Caldari - Range & Precision * Minmatar - Hack & Slash * Amarr - Base Stamina & Bonus to Biotics (work in progress ... subject to tweaks )
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 15:39:00 - [9] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: The "AM Scout Edge" translates to the ability to detect four loadouts ... * 3x damped Assaults * 4x damped Assaults * 2x damped MN Scouts * 2x damped AM Scouts ... and only between 7 and 15 meters (a little more if you're stacking range extenders). Actually, unless you count non-existant 4x precision Cal scouts, you need to add 1x damps Cal and Gal scouts to this list. So effectively the majority of all competitively fit scouts, as this is the level of dampening required to hide from Gal logi scans. The fact that passive scans don't give enemies an on screen warning like actives do, increases the chance of catching unsuspecting scouts. Absolutely fair, Varoth. Still, the point remains: The AM Scout's "competitive edge" is limited to a very narrow middle ring.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 15:50:00 - [10] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Let's look at the triangle here. The scout skills are range, dampening and precision. so why not put range and precision to Amarr, Dampening and precision to gallente, dampening and range to Caldari, and ~~Melee and biotics to minmatar~~? Gallente: Dampening and Precision Caldari: Range and Dampening Amarr: Precision and Range ~~Minmatar: Hack and Slash/ Biotics~~ My two cents: First and foremost, please don't mess with the MinScout unless you're giving it a better scan profile. This one's particularly delicate, as I believe performance statistics will indicate, and I believe it best left alone if at all possible. As for the AM Scout, a few more meters of Scan Range wouldn't hurt anything. Trading it stamina bonus (on the other hand) for those few more meters of scan range would definitely hurt more than help. I believe this unit would stand to benefit more from added mobility than it would sharing a bonus with the CalScout.

Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 15:59:00 - [11] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Absolutely fair, Varoth. Still, the point remains: The AM Scout's "competitive edge" is limited to a very narrow middle ring. I still think the Amarr scout's unique ability to detect assaults at 30m, without fitting any mods, is an advantage that many don't consider. If fit with damage mods, shields or myos, scanning assaults at 30m is pretty nice. Here are other suits by comparison: Unmodded range to detect undampened assaults (max skills): Min scout - 15m Gal scout - 15m Cal scout - 23m Logi - 19m Assault - 15m Commando - 6m Sentinel - 5m I'm not saying they are in a great place. However I don't want to see passive scans becoming OP again. Perhaps, but I don't know that I'd call that a competitive strength or unique advantage. Once EWAR modules are in play, GA and CA Scouts can do the same if not better. Competitively speaking, long range passives are inferior to actives, and if shared passives are disabled (which seems to be a possibility), they'll be even more inferior than they are now. If we were to move the AM Scout bonus away from passive scans, his new-found role(s) would be insulated against upcoming EWAR changes. This is another good reason, in my opinion, to be looking at reasonable alternatives.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 16:40:00 - [12] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: ... I'm with you, Varoth. My thinking is simply that if the Devs are going to spend time and effort fixing the AM Scout, that time and effort would be best spent on a fix which sets it apart. Otherwise, we'll remain without a clear and succinct answer to the very reasonable question, "What's the AM Scout the best at?"
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 16:49:00 - [13] - Quote Stefan Stahl wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: If we were to move the AM Scout bonus away from passive scans, his new-found role(s) would be insulated against upcoming EWAR changes. This is another good reason, in my opinion, to be looking at reasonable alternatives. 1. Would you promote moving all racial suit bonuses away from eWar? Or just for that one suit? I haven't made up my mind, so I'm just asking. 2. My personal stance is that the current AmScout bonus may become very useful once the active scans have received a tweak. You are right in saying that right now active scans are quite simply superior. Until I know how actives are going to change I have trouble deciding what should be done. 3. Subjectively I wouldn't advocate discussing both changes at once. 1. No, I don't think so. I believe that EWAR and Mobility should both remain strengths associated with the Scout class. I don't think that we could successfully split Mobility alone across four unique archetypes. 2. Very possible. If passives were sufficiently buffed and actives sufficiently nerfed, the AM Scout could very well reemerge as a competitive recon unit. Whether or not that'd be good for balance is debatable. 3. Agreed. Though I think we'd do well to recognize that any fix we propose today might prove a wash tomorrow. If Fix A (for instance) is insulated against upcoming "sweeping changes", I believe it preferable to Fix B as it is less likely a waste of developer time and resources.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 17:38:00 - [14] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Hence Why I'm asking ... Understood. Some suggestions: Quick and Dirty Band-Aid Fix Set AM Scout base scan range equal to Logi base scan range. Would help the AM Scout a little; wouldn't hurt anything else. Wouldn't make Scouts any less grumpy about Logi base scan range, but that's beside the point and an altogether separate issue :P Alternative If Rattati's set on keeping the AM Scout EWAR bonus, I'd propose holding off on a "proper fix" until after the EWAR changes. Alternative If Rattati's open to moving the AM Scout bonus away from EWAR, I'd propose the following: * Precision Bonus ----> Biotic Bonus * Precision Bonus ----> Uplink Bonus * Precision Bonus ----> ScP Headshot and Dmg Bonus
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.02 21:44:00 - [15] - Quote Onesimus Tarsus wrote: Hear, hear! Haerr here?
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.03 12:40:00 - [16] - Quote Dont-be-a-D1CK wrote: Make Range Amplifiers a viable option and the AM Scout is set in a good place... * Better AM Scout But also ... * Major Buff to CA Scout * Major Buff to Logi, Blobs, Sentinels, HMG Efficiency * Major Nerf to MN Scout and Backstab / NK Efficiency
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 14	Posted - 2015.09.03 16:52:00 - [17] - Quote Odin The Allfather wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: My two cents: Change the AM Scout bonus to a flat efficacy bonus to biotics. The Triathlete Scout. The Biotic Man. Why so My Sent Ak.0 with 1867 eHP can get one shot with a melee. No. How would that even be possible? The AM Scout has two high slots and base melee of 80. Even if its biotic bonus were ridiculously high (which wouldn't happen), the Commando would still make for a better melee fit and MedFrame for a better mariobro.