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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 10:54:00 -
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I don't want this preface to be too long as I want to focus on primary points of the discussion at hand, so let me -try- to be brief.
To start off, Faction Warfare has always been a pretty hot topic. Originally the LP payouts were too low, no ISK payouts made it difficult to run, the design was originally intended to have synergy with player trading but it didn't come until -way- later.... It was, and in some places still is, a mess. So, I'd like to open up for a hardcore discussion among the entire community about how we all feel about FW and where we can improve it.
To do this, I feel that the best way to go about it is through Trello. So I've started up an FW Overhaul Trello specifically to keep track of formalized proposals and round-abouts what everyone is saying. This will be used to track formalized and general statements as opposed to every minor thing (it shouldn't be too cluttered).
I'm am going to -try my absolute best- to place cards in their respective categories based on where the majority of the community stands but given the discussion material there may come some ideas and proposals that we don't all agree on, so take that into account. Now, to explain how the Trello is formatted.
First of all, I'd like to divide Faction Warfare into a few separate components that we can use as the basis for our discussions.
1) Where does Faction Warfare fall short? - This category is reserved for what we feel that Faction Warfare does wrong and can be improved upon.
2) What does Faction Warfare do right? - This category is reserved for what we feel that Faction Warfare does right and should be retained.
3) What do we want Faction Warfare to do? - This category is for all the hopes, dreams, ambitions and what have you as to what we want FW to do.
4) What could we realistically change, given our barriers (minimal development budget), to improve on Faction Warfare? - This category is what we could REALISTICALLY change based on the fact that we have limited resources (development budget) and there are things that are just plain out of our control (Eve Online support/factors).
I've taken the liberty of adding in a few cards of what -I personally feel- belongs in these categories. How do you feel about the FW situation? Discuss.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 18:59:00 -
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I'll update the Trello soon but I just wanted to take a moment to input a consideration on making LP items more worthwhile.
The only two ways I can see that being done: a) Is if the items themselves were brought up slightly (Std assault rifle with ADV assault rifle stats, adv AR with proto stats, Proto AR with Experimental stats) b) If all other items were brought down to compensate (std AR to militia, adv AR to std, proto AR to adv, etc)
Both of which institute a very high level of powercreep across the entire game spectrum and would, in my opinion, make players feel forced into playing FW to compete. FW should be more natural and based on the player's own specific loyalty, not gear chasing.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:13:00 -
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Mejt0 wrote:Let's see .. FW payouts are far greater than in pubs and you can additionally boost them
People demand team deploy in FW which would isolte FW to limited group only. 16 man squad can only be beaten by another 16 man squad. That's also why qsync guarantees free win if other team doesn't have a qsync or a single good squad + average blues.
Teamwork is OP. Must nerf.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 20:57:00 -
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Some of you may notice that cards are being frequently added/deleted. This is due to consolidation in general "concepts".
For example:
There have been a few proposals on how to make Running FW more rewarding and worthwhile. Rather than having individual, separate cards for each of these, I've consolidated all of them into a single card: "Better Rewards for Running FW". While the specifics on what those rewards are is something that is up for debate, we all are unanimous in that we want Faction Warfare to be a generally more rewarding experience.
I've included the specifics in the card descriptions but the overall premise of the card is essentially what want to focus on; the core of those proposals.
UPDATE 7/19/2015:
We have established that we are all unanimous in that we want there to be harsher punishments for playing both sides of the field in FW, but at the same time we want FW to be a much more rewarding experience with factional loyalty determined by the player's choice and not gear lockouts (amarr/minmatar cannot purchase vehicles, for instance). We are unanimous in that we want more control over how we influence FW as a whole and we would like a stronger Eve connection.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 22:39:00 -
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demens grimwulff wrote:Cesar Geronimo wrote:demens grimwulff wrote:There is a lot that needs to be done to Faction Warfare...
3) More reason to run FW other than the fact that it avoids the current bad matchmaking We must be playing in different FW universes... FW does not use matchmaking. Mu score is not involved, what-so-ever, in team formation in FW. Outside of APEX/Skins, what other reason is there to get into FW, other than the aforementioned lack of matchmaking? ETA: of course, some people would prefer to fight for the state, but there is little benefit to it... FW has been, for a long time, an isk sink, and the payouts, as far as LP/loyalty store are lackluster, at best. The LP store needs a complete rework, imo.
LP items have reduced skill requirements and are equivalent in function to Aurum gear. Specialist gear, as well, is valuable in that it has reduced PG/CPU requirements which makes for some really interesting high-end fittings.
Specialist equipment performs overall better (Imperial Viziam Flux Drop Uplinks), so there is definitely incentive there.
I don't think it needs a -total- rework, just needs to be looked at as far as market data and what is most purchased vs what is least purchased.
Maybe we can talk CCP Rattati into sharing that.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 22:57:00 -
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demens grimwulff wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:LP items have reduced skill requirements and are equivalent in function to Aurum gear. Specialist gear, as well, is valuable in that it has reduced PG/CPU requirements which makes for some really interesting high-end fittings.
Specialist equipment performs overall better (Imperial Viziam Flux Drop Uplinks), so there is definitely incentive there.
I don't think it needs a -total- rework, just needs to be looked at as far as market data and what is most purchased vs what is least purchased.
Maybe we can talk CCP Rattati into sharing that. As stated before, there are outliers, specifically the Amarr uplinks, Min rep tool, Gal scanner, and Cal needle. Past that, the modules and suits will run you a net negative, in isk terms, depending on multiple factor, but you aren't generally saving a lot. Of the specialist weapons, each race has only 1... the Gal AR specialist is not bad, as there are some small gains to be had, and the same as the SCR, but the overall lower cost is not something that is exceptional for these suits. As well, last time I checked, they were still just slightly easier fitting versions of the prototype versions, so the only gain, here, is a couple of PG is saved... which I never use all of my PG on my Amarr suits, anyways. Further more, the specialist Boundless CR is ok, as the fitting costs for these weapons are already really low, and you end up saving only 1 PG, or so, after the innate assault bonus is taken into account. As far as the Caldari, however, the Kaalakiota Specialist RR has 2 less PG than the normal prototype, which means, it fits like the Ishukone Assault, which, even with equal fitting requirements, is still a better weapon, imho. So... the list of "good items" from the shop would be what...? APEX (sold for isk), skins (sold for isk), and 4 equipment, which are actually extremely viable and useful.
It's important to remember that even those small gains, are still gains, and though it may not work for you they could work wonders for someone else. Further more comparing the Specialist RR versus the Assault RR and saying that the Assault RR is the better weapon is largely up to opinion, I feel.
It's edge-case weaponry designed for extremely tight fits. If the gains were too great than they'd create a positive feedback loop in which players would run FW to get that really awesome gear with which to use it in FW.... to get that really awesome gear. I'm all for running FW with consistency and stability but if the gear itself is so powerful that it creates powercreep than I don't support it as much.
IMO, I'd take lackluster gear over power creep any day.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.19 23:42:00 -
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501st Headstrong wrote:What would be the consensus on LP exchanges? Trading Minmatar LP for Amarr gear, but at a far higher rate and only after a certain LP level.
Normally I would never say this idea as it would then fit into my BlackMarket ideals once we had a Massive, self-staining economy, but working with what we have, why not?
Lore: After serving on the battlefields of the State for years, Headstrong had finally achieved level 3 loyalty. Numerous Gallente villages, burned, ships boarded, battles won. The Ishukone Executive approached him following his latest victory.
"Impressive, Mr. Headstrong. 100 battles won for us, we value such service." "Thank you sir...but there is an issue..." "What is it?" The stern faced man grumbled. "I am a Minmatar Scout user, using augmented hacking speeds to win. However, the filthy Gallente have my tech in their War Arsenals." The Caldari smiled. "Very well then...you have proven your loyalty to us after all this time. For three times the LP, we will get you some Codebreakers."
TLDR At Loyalty Rank 2, you are able to exchange LP of your faction for LP of another faction at a rate of 6 to 1.
At Loyalty Rank 3, you may exchange LP for a rate of 4:1
Loyalty Rank 5, 2:1
And Loyalty rank 7- 1:1
Numbers subject to debate of course...
Would be better just to offer up full module parity for all factions, honestly. Weapons, Dropsuits, and Equipment are a different matter but those can just be made tradeable.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 00:28:00 -
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Maken Tosch wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:What would be the consensus on LP exchanges? Trading Minmatar LP for Amarr gear, but at a far higher rate and only after a certain LP level.
Normally I would never say this idea as it would then fit into my BlackMarket ideals once we had a Massive, self-staining economy, but working with what we have, why not?
Lore: After serving on the battlefields of the State for years, Headstrong had finally achieved level 3 loyalty. Numerous Gallente villages, burned, ships boarded, battles won. The Ishukone Executive approached him following his latest victory.
"Impressive, Mr. Headstrong. 100 battles won for us, we value such service." "Thank you sir...but there is an issue..." "What is it?" The stern faced man grumbled. "I am a Minmatar Scout user, using augmented hacking speeds to win. However, the filthy Gallente have my tech in their War Arsenals." The Caldari smiled. "Very well then...you have proven your loyalty to us after all this time. For three times the LP, we will get you some Codebreakers."
TLDR At Loyalty Rank 2, you are able to exchange LP of your faction for LP of another faction at a rate of 6 to 1.
At Loyalty Rank 3, you may exchange LP for a rate of 4:1
Loyalty Rank 5, 2:1
And Loyalty rank 7- 1:1
Numbers subject to debate of course... Would be better just to offer up full module parity for all factions, honestly. Weapons, Dropsuits, and Equipment are a different matter but those can just be made tradeable. I agree with this. It's much easier to have the common modules available to all factions. You can adjust the lore to fit that situation by saying that the Minmatar managed to steal the designs for the Nova Knives from the Caldari while negotiating with the Gallente to give them the designs for making codebreakers.
Wouldn't even need to explain it like that. Ishukone work closely with the Minmatar and actually design some of their weaponry (see SMGs), it could be argued that the Republic would already have access to Nova Knives since the prototype variant is, in fact, Ishukone make.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 01:33:00 -
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Okay, so, talked with some of the Eve guys (after explaining some of the wonky parts of Dust 514 FW, non-tradeable items) and we came up with this proposal:
Lore-wise it wouldn't make sense for CONCORD to play a hand in this, so we're going to explain the conversion through an NPC Broker.
You fight for a faction of your choosing and you gain LP as you normally do. You can then convert that LP into another faction's LP through said broker and the conversion is dynamic, based on who is winning and losing the battle (based on total percentage of district ownership). Converting to LP to the Winning faction's LP is cheaper as it is more common, while the Losing Faction's LP is more expensive as it is less common. This would mean that it would be harder for the winning side, which gets more LP from victories, to convert their LP and get gear from the already losing team. Never-the-less, all factions can then convert their LP and get the gear of their choosing.
An example of how this would work:
I run for Caldari Faction Warfare and I win five matches. Caldari is winning the war, so trying to convert Caldari LP into Gallente LP is more expensive (5-10%), whereas someone on the Gallente side of the war could convert Gallente LP to Caldari LP for cheaper (5-10% as well).
Quote:Steve Ronuken: lore is: 'you buy what the broker wants, give it to him, and he gives you what you actually wanted'. But without the annoying crap
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 01:39:00 -
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501st Headstrong wrote:Sounds good :)
Glad you like it. Let's see what everyone else says.
If the majority of the community likes that proposal than we can easily just make module parity across all factions and leave dropsuits, weapons, etc behind conversion. Then everyone can get the gear they want while fighting for who they want. This reduces the necessity for tradeable items and allows Faction Warfare to still be the predominant source of where those unique items originate.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 06:02:00 -
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Maken Tosch wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:501st Headstrong wrote:Sounds good :) Glad you like it. Let's see what everyone else says. If the majority of the community likes that proposal than we can easily just make module parity across all factions and leave dropsuits, weapons, etc behind conversion. Then everyone can get the gear they want while fighting for who they want. This reduces the necessity for tradeable items and allows Faction Warfare to still be the predominant source of where those unique items originate. I like how it ties in the total percentage of district ownership to the conversion rate.
Awesome. It's a foundation at least. Marking it down in proposal notes.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 06:18:00 -
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Alena Ventrallis wrote:Loyalty store parity. All faction gear available at all levels.
Naaah. Wouldn't make any sense and it's a lot more work than just implementing a conversion system. Not to mention we'd have to make, technically, a new item for every single one.
Amarr Specialist Kaalakiota Rail Rifle Caldari Specialist Kaalakiota Rail Rifle Gallente Specialist Kaalakiota Rail Rifle Minmatar Specialist Kaalakiota Rail Rifle
The kill feed would be horrifying, lol.
I think the conversion system would be the most elegant way to go about this. Module parity is one thing but all faction gear is a different story altogether.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 06:31:00 -
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DeathwindRising wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:I'll update the Trello soon but I just wanted to take a moment to input a consideration on making LP items more worthwhile.
The only two ways I can see that being done: a) Is if the items themselves were brought up slightly (Std assault rifle with ADV assault rifle stats, adv AR with proto stats, Proto AR with Experimental stats) b) If all other items were brought down to compensate (std AR to militia, adv AR to std, proto AR to adv, etc)
Both of which institute a very high level of powercreep across the entire game spectrum and would, in my opinion, make players feel forced into playing FW to compete. FW should be more natural and based on the player's own specific loyalty, not gear chasing. You could reduce the fitting cost slightly of FW items and add non damage relate improvements to weapon stats. Less charge up on RR, less feedback damage on ScR, a scope on the acr, an AR with a mini plasma cannon that you can select from the equipment wheel. Personally I'd prefer items that are similar yet slightly altered to the original. Making FW items more unique.
Some of those aren't within the practicality of what we can accomplish given development budget (new/altered assets and what not). I'll add it when I get home from work. I like the idea of slightly better in non-chalant ways sort of stuff but it'd have to be something that didn't play into potential DPS like reduced charge times on RR's because then that makes it justifiably better than the ISK version.
Like I said, I'd rather FW players fight for who they want, not chase gear
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.20 06:43:00 -
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Nocturnal Soul wrote:Faster base reload Cool down times Larger magazines Decreased PG/CPU Higher accuracy rating
All possible difference makers between FW and isk gear.
On a side note, what about grenades?
Zero cook time, they go off in your hand
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.21 01:52:00 -
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True Adamance wrote:I'm actually a really big fan of Mina's reminder of the MWO model in which players can opt in on contracts for a faction. This I feel expresses more what Factional Warfare is than any model suggested thus far. Remember of course we are not actually a part of any military in New Eden and are merely endorsed as privateers/paramilitaries by the governments to fight in their proxy wars.
Under that model it allows players to determine the amount of time they wish to spend fighting for a faction, either the 7,14,28, or indefinite contracts each with their own corresponding LP modifiers and penalties for breaking contract.
It present the concept of loyalty in a mature and flexible manner.
Beyond that there are a few more things I'd like to see even if not likely to be iterated upon but those in another post since I haven't fully collected my thoughts.
Paraphrase it for me, I have Mina blocked and posts hidden.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.21 03:23:00 -
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True Adamance wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:True Adamance wrote:I'm actually a really big fan of Mina's reminder of the MWO model in which players can opt in on contracts for a faction. This I feel expresses more what Factional Warfare is than any model suggested thus far. Remember of course we are not actually a part of any military in New Eden and are merely endorsed as privateers/paramilitaries by the governments to fight in their proxy wars.
Under that model it allows players to determine the amount of time they wish to spend fighting for a faction, either the 7,14,28, or indefinite contracts each with their own corresponding LP modifiers and penalties for breaking contract.
It present the concept of loyalty in a mature and flexible manner.
Beyond that there are a few more things I'd like to see even if not likely to be iterated upon but those in another post since I haven't fully collected my thoughts. Paraphrase it for me, I have Mina blocked and posts hidden. Basically its a system drawn from Mechwarrior Online in which players can sign on to factions by picking contracts for set periods of time. Each contract type also has a corresponding LP modifier which increases depending on how long you sign up. Contracts however can be betrayed of course so as not to lock players into FW factions they don't want to be a part of but those contrcts broken penalize players.
Kk, I have something similar to that already under the 'Preventing Fighting for Both Sides' card.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.21 03:24:00 -
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UPDATE: 7/20/2015
Added three new labels.
Cyan (Light Blue): Things we absolutely -must do- at some point for FW to be better overall. Blue: Things we probably should do if at all possible. Purple: Things we want to see happen but aren't exactly a high priority by comparison to other factors of FW.
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Aeon Amadi
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Posted - 2015.07.22 06:22:00 -
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Alaika Arbosa wrote:I find it amusing that there are things being brought up in this thread that were brought up 1-1/2 years ago that were ignored then and are now like ******* scripture.
I wonder how things would've gone had they listened then?
I am hoping that they listen this time around.
Eh, what can you do but move forward.
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