DUST Search - Goodbye 6 man squad

Piercing Serenity wrote:

Tesfa Alem wrote:

Here's why it doesn't make sense.

Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward.

4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times.

It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad?

If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8?

Because lp?

No. Its because: "You signed up for this."

First, you gave a bad description for FW. It is "Skirmish with (a much higher chance) more team coordination that you opt into, presumably knowing what you are getting into". Its not like people just "wander" in FW (Which is why the 'zero barrier of entry' description is a bad one), and if they do, then they shouldn't. FW is for people who choose to play against more organized squads. Pubs do not have that condition, and therefore are fundamentally different

I believe that the changes for Pubs is trying to reduce the compounding negative effect of squads on match quality by making "12 communicating team mates" situations more challenging to create. Because communication between squad and team members in pubs is generally low, squads that have communication have a large advantage. Teams that have communication have even larger advantages. Additionally, larger squad sizes (obviously) cause players who do communicate to group together. So the changes to pubs is designed to make it logistically and statistically less likely for 12 or more people with mics get into the same battle on the same side. To do that after the changes, you would need three squad leader, and you are more likely to be paired against another squad than put on the same side.

In contrast, the changes to FW are designed to make it easier for people who are already communicating to group against other groups that are already communicating. The metrics to judge match quality - i.e. how many orbitals are used - have expanded upper and lower bounds because FW is a less regulated and more competitive space.

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Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:13:00 - [1] - Quote Who wants to casually play with friends anyway. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:24:00 - [2] - Quote Player numbers are dropping faster than CCP can count. Matchmaking goes full Spkr when there aren't enough players. CCP is reducing squad sizes out of necessity. @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley on Skype!
Arkena Wyrnspire Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 24	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:44:00 - [3] - Quote It's about time. Maybe we'll have some reasonably balanced matches once in a blue moon. Arkena Wyrnspire aka "British Khorne" - Cross Atu Gallente Guide
1913 DfLo ScReWeD uP InC Smart Deploy 544	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:50:00 - [4] - Quote o/ Bye *Join ScReWeD uP* New To Dust? Sign Up
Scheneighnay McBob Forty-Nine Fedayeen Minmatar Republic 7	Posted - 2015.06.24 19:59:00 - [5] - Quote You know squads originally were 4-man, right? Not caring about KD
Mejt0 Dead Man's Game 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:21:00 - [6] - Quote 4 man squad. It was like thet before and it's good they're reversing the change. 4 man squad for pubs is enough. MM will have a little better conditions to set non ** matches (Now full squad is more than 1/3 of a team). Loyal to The State Member of : State Protectorate Belongs to : Patriots power bloc Civire** Bloodline
Krixus Flux Kang Lo Directorate Gallente Federation 781	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:21:00 - [7] - Quote Oh da Kleenex!! Saying what's on people's minds
1913 DfLo ScReWeD uP InC Smart Deploy 547	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:25:00 - [8] - Quote Krixus Flux wrote: Oh da Kleenex!! Any lotion? *Join ScReWeD uP* New To Dust? Sign Up
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:27:00 - [9] - Quote Just pick the two guys that annoyed you the most, and make them get a new squad. Or, get an 8 man squad and run starter fits in FW if all you want to do is socialize. The game is all about adaptation. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:29:00 - [10] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: The game is all about adaptation. And hate mail. @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley on Skype!

Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:50:00 - [11] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: You know squads originally were 4-man, right? And....? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
MINA Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.24 20:51:00 - [12] - Quote Six man squads were absolutely dominating pub matches. This change is for the better. If you want to grab all of your friends and try to dominate a match, be prepared to start doing it in FW. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.24 21:05:00 - [13] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: Six man squads were absolutely dominating pub matches. This change is for the better. If you want to grab all of your friends and try to dominate a match, be prepared to start doing it in FW. If teameork is so op, why not go all the way and ban squads from pubs? 4 man squad will wreck a solo scrub just as quick as a 6 man. And if you think 6 man squads were dominating pubs, what do you think will happen with 8 man squads in fw? Orbitals are going to be everywhere. Pubs are still the most acessbile part of dust,and what the most popular. Teamwork will still be op, nerfing the last positive quality of dust. Relatively quick pickup games with groups of friends. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 463	Posted - 2015.06.24 21:44:00 - [14] - Quote Now they need to add auto-squadding. Best NPE Dust ever had.
Z Vatican Hentai Federation 42	Posted - 2015.06.24 21:51:00 - [15] - Quote Time to become the logi of 2 heavies all by myself. I can finally hog all the War Points! YES! CEO of Hentai Fedeartion / *Caldari is Life- State Peacekeeper- Enemies of the Gallente*
Grease Spillett The Rainbow Effect Negative-Feedback 863	Posted - 2015.06.24 22:00:00 - [16] - Quote thor424 wrote: Now they need to add auto-squadding. Best NPE Dust ever had. Love this Next time you see me, bring more friends. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBM5hM5LdDw
Joel II X Bacon with a bottle of Quafe 8	Posted - 2015.06.24 23:02:00 - [17] - Quote Scheneighnay McBob wrote: You know squads originally were 4-man, right? Well, quad DOES mean 4, anyways... *Scouts United* Gk.0s & Quafes all day.
Daddrobit You Can Call Me Daddy 1	Posted - 2015.06.25 00:39:00 - [18] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: goes full Spkr I'm using this now. O.G. Pink Fluffy Bunny
DUST Fiend 17	Posted - 2015.06.25 00:45:00 - [19] - Quote 4 man squads also means even less Orbitals in pubs, which is probably a good thing in the long run lol
LOL KILLZ LulKlz 211	Posted - 2015.06.25 00:51:00 - [20] - Quote Z Vatican wrote: Time to become the logi of 2 heavies all by myself. I can finally hog all the War Points! YES! Me JUST logi AK.O with PRO Rep tool this is going to be awesome CEO of LulKlz/ chat channel LulKlz, code 0000 <--- numbers

Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 922	Posted - 2015.06.25 00:53:00 - [21] - Quote I know a 4 man Negative Feedback or Nyain San squad is going to be brutal as well, but for some reason it seems like people will like their odds better if they are only facing 4 instead of 6. People may feel there is a chance. Also, 16 / 4 = 4. So , we can have 4 different 4 person squads in 1 match. Instead of a 6/6/4. Doesn't that just make more sense? The current squad limits always seemed wierd to me. Make it evenly divisible. 4/8/16 = pub/FW/PC. Seems logical. Also, the idea of 4 4 person squads on each side for a skirm match would be fan - freaking - tastic. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.25 01:07:00 - [22] - Quote Daddrobit wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: goes full Spkr I'm using this now. While you are using that, use this too. @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley on Skype!
Heimdallr69 Negative-Feedback. 5	Posted - 2015.06.25 01:09:00 - [23] - Quote Back in my day there weren't squads Removed inappropriate content - CCP Logibro püépü¬püƒpü»tºüpü«pâèpââpâêpéÆsÉ+püäpü+püÖ
JARREL THOMAS Dead Man's Game 747	Posted - 2015.06.25 01:36:00 - [24] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: Daddrobit wrote: Ripley Riley wrote: goes full Spkr I'm using this now. While you are using that, use this too. You just made my day slow claps Caldari Loyalist. ( -í° -£-û -í°) They see me rollin they Hating (..) ( l: ) ( .-. ) ( :l ) (..)
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.25 06:50:00 - [25] - Quote Thokk Nightshade wrote: I know a 4 man Negative Feedback or Nyain San squad is going to be brutal as well, but for some reason it seems like people will like their odds better if they are only facing 4 instead of 6. People may feel there is a chance. Also, 16 / 4 = 4. So , we can have 4 different 4 person squads in 1 match. Instead of a 6/6/4. Doesn't that just make more sense? The current squad limits always seemed wierd to me. Make it evenly divisible. 4/8/16 = pub/FW/PC. Seems logical. Also, the idea of 4 4 person squads on each side for a skirm match would be fan - freaking - tastic. Here's why it doesn't make sense. Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward. 4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times. It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad? If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8? Because lp? Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
elric the enchanter xCosmic Voidx 436	Posted - 2015.06.25 07:15:00 - [26] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: You know squads originally were 4-man, right? And....? ....it worked Cosmic Void mucks about on Youtube Heinz Guderian predicted Tank514
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.25 08:14:00 - [27] - Quote elric the enchanter wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: You know squads originally were 4-man, right? And....? ....it worked ....so well it was discarded.... Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
DiablosMajora 184	Posted - 2015.06.25 11:46:00 - [28] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: elric the enchanter wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Scheneighnay McBob wrote: You know squads originally were 4-man, right? And....? ....it worked ....so well it was discarded.... ....by a dev tream that couldn't dev for ****.... On a less mocking note, HTFU Prepare your angus
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 927	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:35:00 - [29] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: I know a 4 man Negative Feedback or Nyain San squad is going to be brutal as well, but for some reason it seems like people will like their odds better if they are only facing 4 instead of 6. People may feel there is a chance. Also, 16 / 4 = 4. So , we can have 4 different 4 person squads in 1 match. Instead of a 6/6/4. Doesn't that just make more sense? The current squad limits always seemed wierd to me. Make it evenly divisible. 4/8/16 = pub/FW/PC. Seems logical. Also, the idea of 4 4 person squads on each side for a skirm match would be fan - freaking - tastic. Here's why it doesn't make sense. Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward. 4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times. It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad? If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8? Because lp? Because 8 is for FW. Natural progression suggests it should have a higher level of difficulty than the Pub matches. I honestly would be in favor of completely removing squads from pub matches but that is too much of a stretch. So, I will take what I can get. Honestly, me and my buddy run 2 man squads and are efficient enough so the 2v2 argument doesn't bother me. I have to say thanks for using logic/reasoning other than the whine/***** we are hearing from most people. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Radiant Pancake3 Destinys Immortals Rise Of Legion. 190	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:37:00 - [30] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Mina Longstrike wrote: Six man squads were absolutely dominating pub matches. This change is for the better. If you want to grab all of your friends and try to dominate a match, be prepared to start doing it in FW. If teameork is so op, why not go all the way and ban squads from pubs? 4 man squad will wreck a solo scrub just as quick as a 6 man. And if you think 6 man squads were dominating pubs, what do you think will happen with 8 man squads in fw? Orbitals are going to be everywhere. Pubs are still the most acessbile part of dust,and what the most popular. Teamwork will still be op, nerfing the last positive quality of dust. Relatively quick pickup games with groups of friends. It's called the fw channels actually QSYNC with EVE support. OFC there will be Obs. I am the Clown of Ass or am I the Ass of Clown... o.O Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉn¦ñ Minmatar Loyalist Gû¼Gû¼+¦GòÉGòÉGòÉn¦ñ

Piercing Serenity Immortal Guides Learning Alliance 967	Posted - 2015.06.25 14:52:00 - [31] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: Thokk Nightshade wrote: I know a 4 man Negative Feedback or Nyain San squad is going to be brutal as well, but for some reason it seems like people will like their odds better if they are only facing 4 instead of 6. People may feel there is a chance. Also, 16 / 4 = 4. So , we can have 4 different 4 person squads in 1 match. Instead of a 6/6/4. Doesn't that just make more sense? The current squad limits always seemed wierd to me. Make it evenly divisible. 4/8/16 = pub/FW/PC. Seems logical. Also, the idea of 4 4 person squads on each side for a skirm match would be fan - freaking - tastic. Here's why it doesn't make sense. Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward. 4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times. It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad? If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8? Because lp? I got enemies, got a lot of enemies , got a lot of people tryna drain me of this energy
Thokk Nightshade Montana Militia 927	Posted - 2015.06.25 18:52:00 - [32] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Here's why it doesn't make sense. Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward. 4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times. It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad? If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8? Because lp? No. Its because: "You signed up for this." First, you gave a bad description for FW. It is "Skirmish with (a much higher chance) more team coordination that you opt into, presumably knowing what you are getting into". Its not like people just "wander" in FW (Which is why the 'zero barrier of entry' description is a bad one), and if they do, then they shouldn't. FW is for people who choose to play against more organized squads. Pubs do not have that condition, and therefore are fundamentally different I believe that the changes for Pubs is trying to reduce the compounding negative effect of squads on match quality by making "12 communicating team mates" situations more challenging to create. Because communication between squad and team members in pubs is generally low, squads that have communication have a large advantage. Teams that have communication have even larger advantages. Additionally, larger squad sizes (obviously) cause players who do communicate to group together. So the changes to pubs is designed to make it logistically and statistically less likely for 12 or more people with mics get into the same battle on the same side. To do that after the changes, you would need three squad leader, and you are more likely to be paired against another squad than put on the same side. In contrast, the changes to FW are designed to make it easier for people who are already communicating to group against other groups that are already communicating. The metrics to judge match quality - i.e. how many orbitals are used - have expanded upper and lower bounds because FW is a less regulated and more competitive space. Thank you. I was on my phone and didn't want to spend 20 minutes typing a response. Very well ststed. Thokk Kill. Thokk Crush. Thokk Smash.
Viktor Hadah Jr Negative-Impact Back and Forth 8	Posted - 2015.06.25 18:54:00 - [33] - Quote thor424 wrote: Now they need to add auto-squadding. Best NPE Dust ever had. as long as they add team killing. putting me in a squad with filthy peasants... how gross. Vote Viktor Hadah for CPM2 or i'll hurt you. I'm kind of a big deal. Get Dust ISK Here
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.25 19:57:00 - [34] - Quote Piercing Serenity wrote: Tesfa Alem wrote: Here's why it doesn't make sense. Every single argument why 6 man squads are bad for pub skirmish with an isk reward just chucked out the window for pub skirmish with a LP reward. 4 squads are supposed to better than 3 for pubs. So why are 2 squads better than 4 for faction warefare? It's is after all just a pub skirmish with zero barrier of entry, with zero matchmaking and ridiculous long questions times. It doesn't make sense to assume 4 vs 4 squads would be fan freaking tastic in skirmish, shouldn't 2 vs 2 in the same game be game breaking bad? If people feel like they have a chance vs 4 in a pub, what in the world is going to make them feel like they have a chance vs 8? Because lp? No. Its because: "You signed up for this." First, you gave a bad description for FW. It is "Skirmish with (a much higher chance) more team coordination that you opt into, presumably knowing what you are getting into". Its not like people just "wander" in FW (Which is why the 'zero barrier of entry' description is a bad one), and if they do, then they shouldn't. FW is for people who choose to play against more organized squads. Pubs do not have that condition, and therefore are fundamentally different I believe that the changes for Pubs is trying to reduce the compounding negative effect of squads on match quality by making "12 communicating team mates" situations more challenging to create. Because communication between squad and team members in pubs is generally low, squads that have communication have a large advantage. Teams that have communication have even larger advantages. Additionally, larger squad sizes (obviously) cause players who do communicate to group together. So the changes to pubs is designed to make it logistically and statistically less likely for 12 or more people with mics get into the same battle on the same side. To do that after the changes, you would need three squad leader, and you are more likely to be paired against another squad than put on the same side. In contrast, the changes to FW are designed to make it easier for people who are already communicating to group against other groups that are already communicating. The metrics to judge match quality - i.e. how many orbitals are used - have expanded upper and lower bounds because FW is a less regulated and more competitive space. In essences, your argument "fw is expected to be q synced so any reason why 6 man squads are op do not apply." identical gamemode, neither have a barrier of entry, and at least matchmaking is applied in pubs. whether you think faction warfare "should" be restricted to players at a certain level, the fact remains that it isn't. That same argument applies to pubs. everybody knows that there are squads of six in pub matches, therefore it is to be expected that you may run into groups of six. I don't know why you talk about the negative effects of 2 groups of twelve, when creating two squads of 16 should amplify those same effects drastically, creating an even bigger barrier to faction warfare for solo or small squads. here's what I will grant you. It is an attempt to split players up in pubs for Scotty to evenly distribute. supposedly I have yet to see two 6 man squads consistently coordinating he'll, it's impossible to keep a full team together at the end of a match. so much so that people are discussing punitive actions for players quiting early., with our already low player count, asking all casual players to cut their friends out of the loop just gives more people an incentive to leave dust altogether. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
D4GG3R 0uter.Heaven 1	Posted - 2015.06.25 20:06:00 - [35] - Quote Heimdallr69 wrote: Back in my day there weren't squads Back in my day people actually played this game I'm pretty plain. I watch anime for the boobs
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.25 21:50:00 - [36] - Quote @Tesfa Pubs are meant for everyone, beginner and vet alike. Four man squads in Pubs make matchmaking and team building easier so there are fewer stomps. FW is taking gameplay up a notch. Its not necessarily meant for beginners. There is no matchmaking or team building in FW. There needs to be a game mode for new and more casual players to play, hence the changes. Dust doesn't have null, high, and low sec areas like Eve does. Four man squads will help make pub matches more even, and increase the probability of player retention. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Tesfa Alem Death by Disassociation 1	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:27:00 - [37] - Quote One Eyed King wrote: @Tesfa Pubs are meant for everyone, beginner and vet alike. Four man squads in Pubs make matchmaking and team building easier so there are fewer stomps. FW is taking gameplay up a notch. Its not necessarily meant for beginners. There is no matchmaking or team building in FW. There needs to be a game mode for new and more casual players to play, hence the changes. Dust doesn't have null, high, and low sec areas like Eve does. Four man squads will help make pub matches more even, and increase the probability of player retention. I feel like a lot of disagreement with my point of view is that I want to preserve stomp squads. The opposite of that is true. But whereas I want it to limited via meta level walkout, others are cutting down one the last remaining qualities of dust for the casual player, the larger than average squad that regardless of skill level sets dust 51 apart from othe r games. and I'm fine with discussing thepros and cons of squad size size. even though u heartily usage. but when people try to justify why 6 man squads are op for isk matches, but perfectly legit for LP matches the sheer hypocrisy rustles my Jimmies, far beyond just simply my own personal disagreement. especially the s***t math argument. 16 / 4= 4 so therefore matchmaking will improve. 16 /16 = 1 'so by the same logic says no squads will improve match making. Redline for Thee, but no Redline for Me. "I sometimes wonder why I share stuff "- CCP Rattati
Magnus Belmont Kameira Lodge Amarr Empire 64	Posted - 2015.06.26 10:47:00 - [38] - Quote 4 sounds like a squad number.... 6 sounds more like a group. I'm all for 4 man squads.
Ripley Riley Incorruptibles 10	Posted - 2015.06.26 11:04:00 - [39] - Quote Tesfa Alem wrote: especially the s*t math argument. 16 / 4= 4 so therefore matchmaking will improve. 16 /16 = 1 so by the same logic says no squads will improve matchmaking. Well... neither of these statements is untrue. @Ripley_Riley CPM2 candidate. Ripley.Riley** on Skype!


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