DUST Search - What's the actual point in cloaking?

Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote:

Krias Thracian wrote:

If anything it's actually easier to spot than not cloaking. Every time I'm cloaked I'm spotted at what should be an impossible distance for someone who is supposedly "cloaked". Last time I was in the shade AND cloaked and was spotted by someone over 100 yards away. Is cloaking actually supposed to make you harder to spot, or is it supposed to make you stick out like a christmas tree?

Cloaks are for moving when not under direct observation. If you're running directly in front of someone away from all obstacles, you're fair game.

If you move, but are careful, cloaks can get you behind enemy lines, and even change the flow of battle. I've seen it happen before.
They are to reduce visibility, not to make you "magically invisible". If you are skirting around a fight to get behind someone, a cloak can be incredibly useful, because they will be paying attention to their attackers.
On the other hand, if you run around in front of someone who is not under attack, they will most likely spot you.

Rule #1
Awareness is key
---If you just run haphazardly without looking at the area you are passing through, you will never be able to use a cloak effectively.

And frankly, that's the only rule you have to pay attention to when using a cloak.

The number of times I've killed someone running while cloaked, because they caught my attention while sniping is quite high. Usually, they run nonstop in a straight line... no strafing... no turning... no weaving... just a line.

As a result of this, I've often thought that there should be a variant that follows the TF2 system known as the "Cloak and Dagger" where the cloak does not tick down, while the player is not moving, as well as it permits the cloak to slowly recharge.
Moving in smaller bursts while running across a field would be much more beneficial, because then you would not have the constant blurring effect. Plus, standing still greatly reduces your visibility.

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Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2015.06.12 09:40:00 - [31] - Quote Her Chosen wrote: lol get good Get lost. If you can't contribute beyond facetious nonsense, then don't comment.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 31	Posted - 2015.06.12 09:44:00 - [32] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: If anything it's actually easier to spot than not cloaking. Every time I'm cloaked I'm spotted at what should be an impossible distance for someone who is supposedly "cloaked". Last time I was in the shade AND cloaked and was spotted by someone over 100 yards away. Is cloaking actually supposed to make you harder to spot, or is it supposed to make you stick out like a christmas tree? Cloaks are for moving when not under direct observation. If you're running directly in front of someone away from all obstacles, you're fair game. If you move, but are careful, cloaks can get you behind enemy lines, and even change the flow of battle. I've seen it happen before. They are to reduce visibility, not to make you "magically invisible". If you are skirting around a fight to get behind someone, a cloak can be incredibly useful, because they will be paying attention to their attackers. On the other hand, if you run around in front of someone who is not under attack, they will most likely spot you. Rule #1 Awareness is key ---If you just run haphazardly without looking at the area you are passing through, you will never be able to use a cloak effectively. And frankly, that's the only rule you have to pay attention to when using a cloak. The number of times I've killed someone running while cloaked, because they caught my attention while sniping is quite high. Usually, they run nonstop in a straight line... no strafing... no turning... no weaving... just a line. As a result of this, I've often thought that there should be a variant that follows the TF2 system known as the "Cloak and Dagger" where the cloak does not tick down, while the player is not moving, as well as it permits the cloak to slowly recharge. Moving in smaller bursts while running across a field would be much more beneficial, because then you would not have the constant blurring effect. Plus, standing still greatly reduces your visibility. This is my whole problem. At distance you should be nigh impossible to spot. I'm not suggesting for a moment that if I run around right in someones direct vision that I should be magically invisible. However, I should also not be easily spotted from 100 yards away because magic IFF turns red or whatever else. If I'm cloaked, then I'm cloaked. Active scanners should also not highlight me like a christmas tree when I'm cloaked, that defies the point of a cloak if I have to then further use profile dampening. There is already the rather clumsy delay in actually bringing out a weapon. If you're sniping someone who is several hundred yards from you who is cloaked because they are simply moving, then the cloak isn't working right. You can feel free to disagree with that assessment, but that's my opinion. At long range a cloak should be effective invisibility.
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.12 14:32:00 - [33] - Quote Krias Thracian wrote: If you're sniping someone who is several hundred yards from you who is cloaked because they are simply moving, then the cloak isn't working right. ^ Well said. Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
Sicerly Yaw Quantum times 209	Posted - 2015.06.12 16:37:00 - [34] - Quote Balistyc Farshot wrote: Ok, this is silly. I use cloaks on my Assault CR and Shotgun suits. What you guys don't have is the old scout skills combined with Myos. I run a cal scout and when I am in a tight city everyone needs to watch their backs. Sprint through the really open areas and hit a jump or two while cloaked. They will lose you in the air. Then go around a corner and decloak. Confirm if they are chasing you and if they are then jump over them and blap them from behind. If they lost you. Wait for them to get distracted else where then sprint in. Too many scouts expect to just heads up sprint in on aware players. There should be things occurring that distract the players, then you blap them from behind. Never perform a frontal run unless you see them start the reload (Golden time). If you don't have a basic damp on your scout expect scans and use your cloak to visually scout, but head glitch or sprint jump. Lastly, the atmosphere may help you because in smoke or haze you are nearly invisible. Just saying. if you are using myos there is no excuse to not use proto myos unless you just plain out lack sp but if you do have access to them and are using them, then you should just melee people from cloak, Imo much quicker then having to wait for them to be distracted, you don't have to charge it up or aim much just make sure they are within melee range, best scouts for this are of course cal and min using the same tactics you described you can sneak past people come back and punch them to death fairly easy, drawbacks however are that if you are in sight of multiple red dots you leave yourself vulnerable to attack so if you don't get in and out quick you will most likely die, but if its just one player by themselves, which is what you should be aiming for as a scout if you aren't very good at disadvantaged encounters, you can easily falcon punch them out of existence
Baltazar Pontain Blauhelme E.B.O.L.A. 162	Posted - 2015.06.13 05:40:00 - [35] - Quote Radiant Pancake3 wrote: Baltazar Pontain wrote: Today a minmatar scout ran to me (gallente commando). One hit without charge. Why stealth if you can one hit a commando? Okay he was proto and me apex but ... that felt strange. Oh and he did it twice. Second time he came around the cloner and I was faster dead than my plasma cannon was able to charge up and fire. Now excuse me I have to go into bed and whine myself asleep. The knives stab twice not just once. Maybe he hit you with both? Was just one hit sound as far as I remember. Anyway it was pretty fast
Adipem Nothi Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 05:59:00 - [36] - Quote Baltazar Pontain wrote: Anyway it was pretty fast Do you remember this Scout's name? Shoot scout with yes. - Ripley Riley (for CPM2)
jane stalin free dropships for newbs 328	Posted - 2015.06.13 06:23:00 - [37] - Quote I think there should be two types of cloaks, One type should be like the existing cloak One type should only be good at letting you safely run in open ground if the enemy is far away. for example it gives a big penalty to scan profile but makes you very hard to see . I just want to run across open ground without getting long shotted by a rail gun or sniper
One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 06:38:00 - [38] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Cat Merc wrote: One Eyed King wrote: Cat Merc wrote: I wonder for every cloaker you spotted, how many you missed? The answer: You can't know Aren't fallacies wonderful? While you can't know that, it is feasible to record data of how frequently someone spots you while cloaked in various circumstances and kills you. If cloaks are doing what they should, that shouldn't happen more than 2 or 3 times per battle, and should pretty much just happen when running directly at someone. I would be willing to bet that the cloak gets spotted much more frequently than that. Especially at a distance in the open which is when the cloak is supposed to be most effective. User error is a fun thing. When I use the cloak for non combat purposes, it works as advertised. Its comments like these that prevent reasonable discussion of the subject. Let me know when you are ready to stop being a child and we'll talk like real grown ups! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KSBICx2yyZo Facepalm Misuse of this Falacy is a plague in Dust. Few seem to understand it, and then they spread it around when its not applicable like someone who learned something new and feeling the need to point it out every chance they get as even if it has no relevance whatsoever. If you pay attention to the definition of the Toupee Falacy, you will notice the word "always." This means that of 1 million instances of a toupee, I claim to have seen all 1 million. In order to disprove it, one only needs to demonstrate 1 time out of a million that the person missed the toupee. The burden of proof is easy. The reason you misused it, is because the OP said NOTHING about SEEING every cloak. In fact, he was speaking from the OPPOSITE point of view! You wouldn't spout off the Toupee Falacy to someone who says that everyone can always see that they are wearing a toupee would you? (Maybe you would Catmerc, because you seem to be that type...) To spell it out for you, the falacy is NOT FOR THE PERSON WEARING TO TOUPEE!!!! Learn your falacies, learn what they mean, learn where they are applicable, and where they are not. Stop regurgitating other people's points if you can't fully understand them enough to use them right, especially if you are going to do it, ironically, with an air of superiority. Just like the guy telling someone "There grammar sucks!!!" Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Dovallis Martan JenusKoll Osmon Surveillance Caldari State 1	Posted - 2015.06.13 06:45:00 - [39] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: If you're sniping someone who is several hundred yards from you who is cloaked because they are simply moving, then the cloak isn't working right. ^ Well said. You mean "poorly said". The cloaks are light bending, or pattern mimicking technology, meaning it takes time for it to asses it's surroundings and re-adjust it's visual output. The faster you move, the faster the cloak has to work to try to keep you covered, hence causing distortions. If you are running across a field at top speed, the cloak should, by all means, fail to register at all and auto-shutdown from an overload of image requests. If they had been walking, or simply stopped moving, I probably would have lost track of them, but their motion is like a smear brush across a digital canvas. Very obvious when you see it happen, but unclear after its time is over. If you think that you should be able to use this item, anywhere and any way, just because you have it... that is a line of thinking that all environments do not tolerate around the EvE and Dust playstyles. People who don't think before they run, should be killed mid-run. Keeps the stupids from running rampant. Literally. People with actual intelligence know how to use the environment, such as mood and flare from the sunlight to make their character literally invisible during transit, toward their prospective targets. --------Whenever you move while in cloak, there is an area I call a "green zone", where you want your targets to be in. Anyone in the "green" will have a very hard time seeing you. In contrast to this is the "red zone" where you don't want to see anyone enter, because it will invalidate your cover if they look your way, and realize what they are looking at. --------Learn to understand that such things exist, and mayhaps you'll start having an excellent time with the cloaks. http://youtu.be/dtXupQg77SU Dust to Dust Remember the dream you had before the day you were born.
Blueprint For Murder Storm Wind Strikeforce Caldari State 469	Posted - 2015.06.13 06:48:00 - [40] - Quote The cloak use to be much better and scouts were the king of the game. It came time to balance them and the dumber and louder part of the community spoke out about how they didn't want to lose there cheap shotgun scout and ccp gave them what they wished. So now if you want to run a cloak scout you pretty much have to run sg scout. strife scout might still be good but with the strength of the cr most prolly just "ohk" people. You can also go melee, but I think that only works for people with grand net connections. Fast 6/1 - 6/30 Life $

One Eyed King Nos Nothi 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 07:02:00 - [41] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: If you're sniping someone who is several hundred yards from you who is cloaked because they are simply moving, then the cloak isn't working right. ^ Well said. You mean "poorly said". The cloaks are light bending, or pattern mimicking technology, meaning it takes time for it to asses it's surroundings and re-adjust it's visual output. The faster you move, the faster the cloak has to work to try to keep you covered, hence causing distortions. If you are running across a field at top speed, the cloak should, by all means, fail to register at all and auto-shutdown from an overload of image requests. If they had been walking, or simply stopped moving, I probably would have lost track of them, but their motion is like a smear brush across a digital canvas. Very obvious when you see it happen, but unclear after its time is over. If you think that you should be able to use this item, anywhere and any way, just because you have it... that is a line of thinking that all environments do not tolerate around the EvE and Dust playstyles. People who don't think before they run, should be killed mid-run. Keeps the stupids from running rampant. Literally. People with actual intelligence know how to use the environment, such as mood and flare from the sunlight to make their character literally invisible during transit, toward their prospective targets. --------Whenever you move while in cloak, there is an area I call a "green zone", where you want your targets to be in. Anyone in the "green" will have a very hard time seeing you. In contrast to this is the "red zone" where you don't want to see anyone enter, because it will invalidate your cover if they look your way, and realize what they are looking at. --------Learn to understand that such things exist, and mayhaps you'll start having an excellent time with the cloaks. Game balance > realism If you want to get nit picky with what is realistic, this is the wrong game with which to do it. Heck, this is the wrong MEDIUM with which to do it. We could make a whole list of things that aren't realistic in the game, but that doesn't mean that the game would be better balanced, more fun, and more playable for being more realistic. Former CEO of the Land of the BIind. Any double entendre is unintended I assure you.
Varoth Drac Dead Man's Game 979	Posted - 2015.06.13 07:11:00 - [42] - Quote For what it's worth, I do believe the cloak's movement shimmer should be reduced. It's not useless, but it does seem too easy to see. I'm basing this on the circumstances where I am spotted whilst using it, and how easy it is to see cloaks when I spot them, so my reasoning is free from logical fallacy. I also think the decloak delay could do with being a bit shorter. I totally support why we have it, but it feels clunky and irritating to use. It could be a bit quicker without bringing back insta-ganking shotgun decloaks.
Aeon Amadi Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback 10	Posted - 2015.06.13 07:19:00 - [43] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: I wonder for every cloaker you spotted, how many you missed? The answer: You can't know Aren't fallacies wonderful? Cat Merc saw the power of cloaking on my Gal Assault first hand, lol. I have a video. Design a Skin Challenge POLL (Vote Now!)
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2015.06.14 09:35:00 - [44] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: If anything it's actually easier to spot than not cloaking. Every time I'm cloaked I'm spotted at what should be an impossible distance for someone who is supposedly "cloaked". Last time I was in the shade AND cloaked and was spotted by someone over 100 yards away. Is cloaking actually supposed to make you harder to spot, or is it supposed to make you stick out like a christmas tree? Cloaks are for moving when not under direct observation. If you're running directly in front of someone away from all obstacles, you're fair game. If you move, but are careful, cloaks can get you behind enemy lines, and even change the flow of battle. I've seen it happen before. They are to reduce visibility, not to make you "magically invisible". If you are skirting around a fight to get behind someone, a cloak can be incredibly useful, because they will be paying attention to their attackers. On the other hand, if you run around in front of someone who is not under attack, they will most likely spot you. Rule #1 Awareness is key ---If you just run haphazardly without looking at the area you are passing through, you will never be able to use a cloak effectively. And frankly, that's the only rule you have to pay attention to when using a cloak. The number of times I've killed someone running while cloaked, because they caught my attention while sniping is quite high. Usually, they run nonstop in a straight line... no strafing... no turning... no weaving... just a line. As a result of this, I've often thought that there should be a variant that follows the TF2 system known as the "Cloak and Dagger" where the cloak does not tick down, while the player is not moving, as well as it permits the cloak to slowly recharge. Moving in smaller bursts while running across a field would be much more beneficial, because then you would not have the constant blurring effect. Plus, standing still greatly reduces your visibility. Okay, let me address some of your "points", If the only point of a cloak is when they are otherwise distracted, then it's a complete waste of a slot. If someone is already distracted (lets say by being shot) then they are already not paying attention to the guy behind them and so a cloak is pointless. The other person shooting them is more than sufficient for them to not notice you. If someone has to use non-cloaked movement tactics when moving hundreds of yards away because they can be picked up and shot by a sniper, then see my earlier comments, cloaking is broken in that situation. You absolutely should not be able to pick someone off who is cloaked from several hundred yards away with a sniper rifle. If you check my original post, nowhere in it did I suggest that I should be able to run around in front of someone doing the dust equivalent of mooning them. In fact when I'm spotted from close range (because I ran round the corner right in front of someone and they spotted me for example when I didn't know they were there) then I've always called fair kop. Cloaking should not be inviolable in this game. My issue is that I should not be easily spotted and killed from over 100 yards away, which seems to be where a lot of the kills come from because the IFF turns red, or whatever else, when strafing over a large area of scenery. I should not be easier to spot in shade that would normally provide effective screening aside from the aforementioned reticle turning red. In short, your point seems to be to suggest that one's movement and tactics under cloak should be identical to one's movement and tactics without the cloak for standard evasion and tactics in an FPS. If that is the case, then there is absolutely no point to the cloak's existence. It's actually more of a hindrance as it instils a sense of false confidence.
Krias Thracian Villore Sec Ops Gallente Federation 35	Posted - 2015.06.14 09:53:00 - [45] - Quote Dovallis Martan JenusKoll wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: Krias Thracian wrote: If you're sniping someone who is several hundred yards from you who is cloaked because they are simply moving, then the cloak isn't working right. ^ Well said. You mean "poorly said". The cloaks are light bending, or pattern mimicking technology, meaning it takes time for it to asses it's surroundings and re-adjust it's visual output. The faster you move, the faster the cloak has to work to try to keep you covered, hence causing distortions. If you are running across a field at top speed, the cloak should, by all means, fail to register at all and auto-shutdown from an overload of image requests. If they had been walking, or simply stopped moving, I probably would have lost track of them, but their motion is like a smear brush across a digital canvas. Very obvious when you see it happen, but unclear after its time is over. If you think that you should be able to use this item, anywhere and any way, just because you have it... that is a line of thinking that all environments do not tolerate around the EvE and Dust playstyles. People who don't think before they run, should be killed mid-run. Keeps the stupids from running rampant. Literally. People with actual intelligence know how to use the environment, such as mood and flare from the sunlight to make their character literally invisible during transit, toward their prospective targets. --------Whenever you move while in cloak, there is an area I call a "green zone", where you want your targets to be in. Anyone in the "green" will have a very hard time seeing you. In contrast to this is the "red zone" where you don't want to see anyone enter, because it will invalidate your cover if they look your way, and realize what they are looking at. --------Learn to understand that such things exist, and mayhaps you'll start having an excellent time with the cloaks. Okay, you're either someone that doesn't play EvE, or you're just trolling me. Cloaks are absolutely inviolable in EvE, with the only exception being if you can get to within 2 km of the user of the cloak. Secondly, almost any item in EvE can be put to myriad uses, many of which hadn't been thought of by the developers, and the developers often praise such ingenuity, where it isn't a clear "break" of the coded rules. So your point is? Addressing the realism nonsense, everyone always assumes they have to compensate for what's behind you. It's a false assumption. If it works by bending light then the image behind makes absolutely no difference. You can either bend all the wavelengths of visible light, or you can't. There's no adjustment required because there's no time to make adjustment, it's not possible, because light moves at the speed of light. So if it can bend all wavelengths then what's behind is irrelevant as it'll get bent round. If it can't bend all wavelengths then it's not a cloak and you'll be clearly visible. Further, if you're looking for realism then when cloaked everyone's screen should be completely black while cloaked as how does the cloak magically know to let light in so you can see, but not allow your enemies to see such light? If they are pattern mimicking, then again, they can read ahead at the speed of light as they must have sensors that will cover 360 degrees, any reason why you think they couldn't read ahead of you by 100 yards to read the contours and wavelengths off of otherwise immobile ground? The only time there would be distortion would be if something unexpected happened, like a tank moving into the FOV that was unexpected. Even then, the reaction time of tech now is faster than the human eye can see, what makes you think in the far future it would be slow enough that you'd see it? You're statement is such that you WANT it to be like that, there's no reason in a sci-fi setting that it should or would. Again, you're projecting so hard we could use you to display powerpoint presentations: Point out to me where I said I should be able to use it in any fashion I wanted, I suggested that at long range (100 yards+ unassisted and multiple hundreds of yards assisted) that the cloak should be effective invisibility. Let me reiterate, if the cloak does not allow you to move in a more direct fashion than not being cloaked when at long range, then there is no point to the cloak. If I need to use lensing effects from the lightsource in-game (a patently ridiculous suggestion as I can have no idea where every sniper is in the game) then the cloak isn't fit for purpose as I'm having to be MORE careful under cloak than normal. I could just use standard distraction techniques. As I have repeatedly said, at close range, sure the cloak should show up, nothing should be perfect. At long range it should be pretty much invisibility. It's not, I have been killed so many times from long range when there is no reason for them to spot me from over 100 yards when I'm trying to just get round them. I didn't know the IFF turned red even over a cloaked character, this could well be the reason. If that's the case then just remove that action for cloaked individuals and that should fix a lot of the problem.


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