DUST Search - Armor > Shields discussion (Infantry)

Mina Longstrike wrote:

You've summed it up fairly well... armor gets to have both damage and high raw HP and continues to recover through small amounts of damage (combined with the fact that the 'standard' of armor / armor repair is usually around 700ish hp and 20-25 rep)

Shields have lower raw HP values but higher regen values (sometimes) and they don't continue to recover through small amounts of damage.

This is exacerbated by the fact anti-shield weapons have higher inherent DPS (even assuming neutral profiles, not the exaggerated ones that are a reality) than anti-armor weapons. So even if they had the same raw hp values, shields would take more damage from anti shield weapons, the fact that they have less HP yet still take more damage makes it so that proportionally any damage taken is higher and lasts longer (because yay idiotic delays!).

Compound it with the fact that armor users in the majority of fights get to use 60-100% of their shields every time (which often makes up a non-insignificant amount of hp, ranging from 20-40% of total hp pool) where shield users usually have to fight on only their shields (cutting their total available HP pool down to 60-80% of listed EHP value... where they take proportionally more damage). Shields often feel like they're fighting with only ~half of their EHP value when put up against anti-shield weapons.

My proposition: A small EHP buff to shields, potentially the removal of the shield delay on extenders. Some sort of shield penalty to armor modules - armor reps = longer shield delays, armor plates = less shield hp or rep.

Pages: [1] :: one page

Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.08 15:08:00 - [1] - Quote Before we start, let's not turn this into an argument as to whether shields are fine or underpowered, yet rather point to some disparities between shield and armor. Now, I'm not too versed in armor, as I personally run a shield fit myself. But some things brought up in the past that point to some key differences between the two are as follows: Power AND defense - Armor fits are able to fit for a considerable amount of tank while utilizing high slots for damage mods. Conversely, shields must sacrifice their main form of defense to achieve the same goal. High/Low slot usage - To achieve what constitutes as a strong shield fit, high and low slots must be fit dominantly with shield modules. On the other hand, armor is somewhat limited as most all modules for armor are dominantly low slots. Raw HP values - Shields tend to have lower raw HP values, where armor has very raw HP values. Having higher raw HP values can be incredibly helpful with single engagements, and noticeably better when engaging on multiple fronts. Armor reps vs Shield recharge - Armor reps, while weak in comparison to recharge, are still active even while taking damage. Shields on the other hand must find ways to break combat to utilize recharge, yet they recharge rather fast in comparison. Speed - A true shield fit suffers no movement penalty, and can easily augment this by utilizing their low slots for kin cats with little sacrifice to their main tank. On the other hand, fitting for high armor values weaken mobility and one must sacrifice tank for higher sprint speeds. Using some of these points, a few potential suggestions: Targeted damage mods - Damage mods could potentially be splits (as mentioned by some in the community) between the 2 damage types, and placed in low / high slots accordingly (Shields, High - Armor, Low). Maybe even have a negative modifier to the opposite damage profile. With a shield based damage mod, you may gain an extra 7% to shields, yet lose 7% against armor. Creating a bit of give and take when using them and not all "give". High slot armor repairs - Move armor repairs to high slots, giving armor suits the ability to fit for pure tank. While at first glance, yes it seems OP. Yet I hope this could be remedied through PG/CPU limitations, requiring the use of a PG mod which happens to be a high slot module itself. Though by doing this, we could potentially justify improving shield recharge or recharge rate. Speed - I've taken a strong liking to running my shield fit with at least one kincat of late. For shields, speed makes or breaks it. Shields MUST have a strong ability to break combat to utilize shield recharge, where this is less true of armor as high armor values and constant repairs plus rep tools do a far better job mitigating damage. So something as simple as better sprint speed and stamina could help shields greatly. Damage profiles on weapons - I absolutely HATE the large damage profiles on weapons. Given proficiency skills on weapons, the problem is further exaggerated. Taking for example explosives and lasers. At +20 / -20, PLUS the 15% from skills, you give these weapons an incredible edge over their targeted profiles with little drawback. I suggest reigning these in allowing for targeted damage mods and proficiency to make up the differences. But if we must have extreme profiles, I would suggest increasing the negative profile by 5% to further demonstrate that these are weapons strong in one particular area yet very poor at the other. A laser should strip shields with ease but they really need to struggle breaking armor. Same goes for explosions. Anyways, remember to keep this constructive. I'm not interested in hearing about why shields are ok or why armor is OP. Focus on pointing to the disparities between the two and ways we can go about fixing some of them. TL;DR I've kept everything separated, and each point short to boot. Pick one em out one at a time if ya have to! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 15:19:00 - [2] - Quote You've summed it up fairly well... armor gets to have both damage and high raw HP and continues to recover through small amounts of damage (combined with the fact that the 'standard' of armor / armor repair is usually around 700ish hp and 20-25 rep) Shields have lower raw HP values but higher regen values (sometimes) and they don't continue to recover through small amounts of damage. This is exacerbated by the fact anti-shield weapons have higher inherent DPS (even assuming neutral profiles, not the exaggerated ones that are a reality) than anti-armor weapons. So even if they had the same raw hp values, shields would take more damage from anti shield weapons, the fact that they have less HP yet still take more damage makes it so that proportionally any damage taken is higher and lasts longer (because yay idiotic delays!). Compound it with the fact that armor users in the majority of fights get to use 60-100% of their shields every time (which often makes up a non-insignificant amount of hp, ranging from 20-40% of total hp pool) where shield users usually have to fight on only their shields (cutting their total available HP pool down to 60-80% of listed EHP value... where they take proportionally more damage). Shields often feel like they're fighting with only ~half of their EHP value when put up against anti-shield weapons. My proposition: A small EHP buff to shields, potentially the removal of the shield delay on extenders. Some sort of shield penalty to armor modules - armor reps = longer shield delays, armor plates = less shield hp or rep. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Vitharr Foebane Shining Flame Amarr Empire 2	Posted - 2015.06.08 15:57:00 - [3] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: You've summed it up fairly well... armor gets to have both damage and high raw HP and continues to recover through small amounts of damage (combined with the fact that the 'standard' of armor / armor repair is usually around 700ish hp and 20-25 rep) Shields have lower raw HP values but higher regen values (sometimes) and they don't continue to recover through small amounts of damage. This is exacerbated by the fact anti-shield weapons have higher inherent DPS (even assuming neutral profiles, not the exaggerated ones that are a reality) than anti-armor weapons. So even if they had the same raw hp values, shields would take more damage from anti shield weapons, the fact that they have less HP yet still take more damage makes it so that proportionally any damage taken is higher and lasts longer (because yay idiotic delays!). Compound it with the fact that armor users in the majority of fights get to use 60-100% of their shields every time (which often makes up a non-insignificant amount of hp, ranging from 20-40% of total hp pool) where shield users usually have to fight on only their shields (cutting their total available HP pool down to 60-80% of listed EHP value... where they take proportionally more damage). Shields often feel like they're fighting with only ~half of their EHP value when put up against anti-shield weapons. My proposition: A small EHP buff to shields, potentially the removal of the shield delay on extenders. Some sort of shield penalty to armor modules - armor reps = longer shield delays, armor plates = less shield hp or rep. so you want plates to take away speed AND shield HP...? Biased shield user is biased. @OP wanna fix shields(which aren't nearly as bad as people claim) Damage threshold is the way to go. the real problem is figuring out the magic number that prevents armor from becoming the UP option (again). Amarr Omnisoldier: Assault, Commando, Logistics, Scout, Sentinel at V My faith is in my God, my Empress, and my Laz0r
Mina Longstrike Kirjuun Heiian 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 16:18:00 - [4] - Quote ^My proposition is based more on shifting a larger total % of the HP pool onto the primary tank for armor, rather than having a robust and frequently accessible non-primary tank. Are you trying to say that it would be 'unfair' for all armor users to have ~amarr scout levels of shield HP? Cause I don't think it would be, I mean that's prettymuch the position that shield users are in with regards to proportional damage and armor. Hnolai ki tuul, ti sei oni a tiu. Kirjuun Heiian. I have a few alts.
Alena Ventrallis Commando Perkone Caldari State 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 16:36:00 - [5] - Quote The problems with shields as I see it are: 1. You can stop the shield recharge at any range with any weapon. A shield damage threshold of 5-10 damage needs to be added to correct this. 2. Shields have no form of team support whatsoever, while armor has acces to triage hives and rep tools. This makes armor completely superior to shields. We need some form of shield heal, rep tool or otherwise. A talk about some form of inverted flux was mentioned long ago and sounded perfect for shield fit suits. 3. Shield based suits don't have the fitting space to fit shields (which oddly enough are PG intensive) and biotics (also incredibly PG intensive) meaning they are either the same speed as armor suits or even slower, since Armor has the PG to fit biotics. Decreasing extender PG usage slightly will correct this. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.08 17:17:00 - [6] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problems with shields as I see it are: 1. You can stop the shield recharge at any range with any weapon. A shield damage threshold of 5-10 damage needs to be added to correct this. 2. Shields have no form of team support whatsoever, while armor has acces to triage hives and rep tools. This makes armor completely superior to shields. We need some form of shield heal, rep tool or otherwise. A talk about some form of inverted flux was mentioned long ago and sounded perfect for shield fit suits. 3. Shield based suits don't have the fitting space to fit shields (which oddly enough are PG intensive) and biotics (also incredibly PG intensive) meaning they are either the same speed as armor suits or even slower, since Armor has the PG to fit biotics. Decreasing extender PG usage slightly will correct this. 3. would let armor tankers fit more shields though.
CommanderBolt KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion. 3	Posted - 2015.06.08 18:22:00 - [7] - Quote In my opinion the shields / armour debate is fairly simple. Repair hives and repair tools, (combined with the other quirks as have been pointed out by other posters above me) push armour to be favourable. Shields do their intended job actually pretty well. My only real gripe is how ridiculous scrambler damage is against shield users. (Notice I say scramblers and NOT all Laser tech) "Madness how we turned our common-ground into a battle-ground.." - Essa
Vesta Opalus Ostrakon Agency Gallente Federation 791	Posted - 2015.06.08 20:05:00 - [8] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: The problems with shields as I see it are: 1. You can stop the shield recharge at any range with any weapon. A shield damage threshold of 5-10 damage needs to be added to correct this. 2. Shields have no form of team support whatsoever, while armor has acces to triage hives and rep tools. This makes armor completely superior to shields. We need some form of shield heal, rep tool or otherwise. A talk about some form of inverted flux was mentioned long ago and sounded perfect for shield fit suits. 3. Shield based suits don't have the fitting space to fit shields (which oddly enough are PG intensive) and biotics (also incredibly PG intensive) meaning they are either the same speed as armor suits or even slower, since Armor has the PG to fit biotics. Decreasing extender PG usage slightly will correct this. In addition to all this, the high slot shield regen modules take an absurd amount of CPU, which shield suits generally dont have higher CPU to handle. This makes shield fits just unwieldy in terms of fitting compared to armor fits, which tend to have very little problem fitting better, especially at STD/ADV levels.
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 863	Posted - 2015.06.08 23:38:00 - [9] - Quote Armor was only UP because of the 10% speed penalty back in the day. When they made it a smaller penalty and added feroscales armor stopped being UP. Shield threshold is one way to go. Another is the variety of shield mods that armor tankers have for armor. Another is rep options for shields. Another is a low slot module that slightly modifies base movement speed (although with hit detection being what it is that is a risky prospect) Another is to change the PG/CPU values on shield modules (they are stupidly unfair compared to armor) However, I think the "Armor tankers can have HP AND DAM mods but shield tankers CANT" is a tad flawed. I mean, it is true, however, shield tankers can have HP AND SPEED mods but armor tankers CANT." That's kind of the point behind shields and how they were designed. Regardless, it's up to CCP as to how they go about this assuming they decide to go about this in the first place. Your concern is not wrong OP. Considering the number of threads we have had on it, it doesn't appear that it will be changing anytime soon.
DeathwindRising ROGUE RELICS 1	Posted - 2015.06.09 00:10:00 - [10] - Quote Imp Smash wrote: Armor was only UP because of the 10% speed penalty back in the day. When they made it a smaller penalty and added feroscales armor stopped being UP. Shield threshold is one way to go. Another is the variety of shield mods that armor tankers have for armor. Another is rep options for shields. Another is a low slot module that slightly modifies base movement speed (although with hit detection being what it is that is a risky prospect) Another is to change the PG/CPU values on shield modules (they are stupidly unfair compared to armor) However, I think the "Armor tankers can have HP AND DAM mods but shield tankers CANT" is a tad flawed. I mean, it is true, however, shield tankers can have HP AND SPEED mods but armor tankers CANT." That's kind of the point behind shields and how they were designed. Regardless, it's up to CCP as to how they go about this assuming they decide to go about this in the first place. Your concern is not wrong OP. Considering the number of threads we have had on it, it doesn't appear that it will be changing anytime soon. Shield tankers have PG problems trying to fit kincats. Cardiac regs are easy enough but a cal assault with 4 extenders isn't going to get a kincat unless they drop sidearms/grenades and/or equipment

XxGhazbaranxX Eternal Beings 1	Posted - 2015.06.09 01:25:00 - [11] - Quote I think a good start for shield is to eliminate the "when depleted" delay. I believe the true shield suit caldari should start shield regen when they hit 0 like the sentinel. Plasma Cannon Advocate
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.11 17:27:00 - [12] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Shield tankers have PG problems trying to fit kincats. Cardiac regs are easy enough but a cal assault with 4 extenders isn't going to get a kincat unless they drop sidearms/grenades and/or equipment Yet, for an armor tanker to fit a kin cat, they must sacrifice an armor slot to do so. Though at the same time, shield tanking is unique in that it must utilize low slots for shield modules to maximize shield effectiveness. All said though, I've been playing with the only shield fit that I actually have immense success with. High Slots 3x shield extenders 2x energizers Low slots 2x regulator 1x kin cat I've tried numerous fits in the past, and a slight variation to this one that drops the kin cat for a third energizer to much less success. I honestly never realized how important speed is for shields. The ability to break combat that the one kin cat affords is crucial to success with a shield suit. While I am unfamiliar with armor, it would seem the general consensus is that they are afforded more variety in fitting over shield fits. And one main point, they can effectively armor tank AND increase damage utilizing high slots for that purpose. On the flip side, a shield tank can fit for shields, yet typically must utilize low slots through regulators to bring shields inline with what an armor tank can do with just their low slots. Leaving very little to no room for utility (what I view damage mods as). All said, I think a boost to base sprint speed for shields (movement speed is fine) would help immensely in allowing a shield tanker to utilize their shields to maximum effect. Further, I would say that armor repairs need to be moved to the high slots to give armor tankers a choice of utility or tank. Yet it's rather obvious that armor tanker would become OP utilizing high slot reppers AND reppin logis. So not a great idea, but perhaps reducing the rep cycles of armor repairs and introducing a new high slot modules that reduces the rep cycle. In this way, armor tankers would be presented with the same option shield tankers are given, either improve your tank or your utility. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.11 17:43:00 - [13] - Quote Mina Longstrike wrote: Compound it with the fact that armor users in the majority of fights get to use 60-100% of their shields every time (which often makes up a non-insignificant amount of hp, ranging from 20-40% of total hp pool) where shield users usually have to fight on only their shields (cutting their total available HP pool down to 60-80% of listed EHP value... where they take proportionally more damage). Shields often feel like they're fighting with only ~half of their EHP value when put up against anti-shield weapons. I think this is a very good point. It's something I've pointed to in the past with vehicles. While armor suits don't utilize shields like shield based suits, they still maintain a buffer that is non existent for shield suits. A shield suit must break combat the moment shields go down, never wanting (as it means death) to utilize armor. When looking at eHP values, armor get great value from their armor HP pool in addition to their shield pool, while shields get lesser value all around as their armor pool takes ages to recoup. I may be talking nonsense here, as I don't know what the shield recharge rate for armor suits is. But I would suggest reducing it to a point that is comparable to armor repair on shield suits. Say a 3 - 5 recharge rate on shields for armor suits, severely restricting, much like armor repair on shield suits, their use of shields. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
DR DEESE NUTS 113	Posted - 2015.06.11 21:42:00 - [14] - Quote How about a decrease in pg for kincats so shield suits can utilize them better with their lower pg pool.( And so I can fit them easier on my Gal assault.) The USS m`dick
Devadander Woodgrain Atari 301	Posted - 2015.06.11 22:29:00 - [15] - Quote My suggestion is to leave everything alone, and add an HP increase to extenders. See what that does, then revisit ideas for new modules/equip/etc. Gêå You want a toe? I can get you a toe dude. Gêå Joined - 06-28-12 ~Deal with it~
DR DEESE NUTS 113	Posted - 2015.06.11 23:24:00 - [16] - Quote Devadander wrote: My suggestion is to leave everything alone, and add an HP increase to extenders. See what that does, then revisit ideas for new modules/equip/etc. How much would the hp increase be? The USS m`dick
emm kay Direct Action Resources 319	Posted - 2015.06.12 00:22:00 - [17] - Quote Tebu Gan wrote: Speed - I've taken a strong liking to running my shield fit with at least one kincat of late. For shields, speed makes or breaks it. Shields MUST have a strong ability to break combat to utilize shield recharge, where this is less true of armor as high armor values and constant repairs plus rep tools do a far better job mitigating damage. So something as simple as better sprint speed and stamina could help shields greatly. Speed! talks about something that is not related to speed. There is a reason you never see me in battle. it's because I see you first.
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.12 00:26:00 - [18] - Quote emm kay wrote: Tebu Gan wrote: Speed - I've taken a strong liking to running my shield fit with at least one kincat of late. For shields, speed makes or breaks it. Shields MUST have a strong ability to break combat to utilize shield recharge, where this is less true of armor as high armor values and constant repairs plus rep tools do a far better job mitigating damage. So something as simple as better sprint speed and stamina could help shields greatly. Speed! talks about something that is not related to speed. I think you are mistaken there I further spoke of this in a later posting as well. Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Tebu Gan Capital Acquisitions LLC 1	Posted - 2015.06.12 00:29:00 - [19] - Quote DR DEESE NUTS wrote: How about a decrease in pg for kincats so shield suits can utilize them better with their lower pg pool.( And so I can fit them easier on my Gal assault.) I honestly feel armor suits don't need them nearly as bad. In any case the gal assault is already getting a sprint speed buff, as yes that speed is important for the weapon they use. I'm thinking that in kind, cal assault should additionally get a sprint speed buff, yet without the stamina nerf (Up to the math nerds on this). You can use a kin cat if needed, but need to sacrifice for it like everyone else! Tanks - Balancing Turrets
Imp Smash Molon Labe. RUST415 864	Posted - 2015.06.13 00:21:00 - [20] - Quote DeathwindRising wrote: Shield tankers have PG problems trying to fit kincats. Cardiac regs are easy enough but a cal assault with 4 extenders isn't going to get a kincat unless they drop sidearms/grenades and/or equipment That's also a good point. OP, I like the layed out discussion you've set up and I am sad that more people aren't coming in here and discussing it, so I'll give ya a bump and a thought I have had. For the last 3 months or so, I've been thinking about the shield armor issue a lot. I've written a couple of article for Biomassed on it, and mentioned it both. And I honestly think that it needs some more clear rectification before weapons can be brought into balance. But one thing I notice is that people seem to not discuss, in depth, the point of shields. The combat strategy behind it. They aren't designed to stand up to armor when trading shots. They are supposed to lose there. So the idea of an HP buff to shields seems silly to me. Damage threshold is a difficult thing to balance at 'just right' but it is a solid idea. As many others (Death is quoted above) has mentioned, shield mods are oddly PG/CPU intensive and Cal suits are oddly lacking. Some CPU/PG readdressing would work wonders for suit viability. And, honestly speaking, that shield delay penalty to extenders needs to go. It is unnecessary.



Pages: [1] :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page