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![[Veteran_Templar Two]](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png "[Veteran_Templar Two]")
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have a bold proposition.
I proposed to have Realistic Magazine Management in Dust 514 AS AN OPTION.
Check this link to learn more about RMM.
I think it would be great to have RMM in Dust 514 for these reasons:
- More realism: players looking for more realism in FPS will have a further reason to pick Dust 514.
- A more compelling/tactical gamepaly which means more variety and so less stagnation over the years.
- With RMM teamwork & class variety will become even more essential/rewarding: for instance players with Nanohives will become more useful than ever.
- Supply installations will be even more useful/meaningful: Real Time Strategy elements/gamepaly in Dust 514 will consequently become more rewarding/appealing.
- RMM might lead to the creation of a new set of skills dedicated to reloading expanding so the skill tree a bit and giving us more options/variety.
- RMM can be used as a parameter to further balance weapons: a useful extra tool for the developers.
I know that not everyone likes RMM, and that is really rare in shooters, but if it won't make it as a standard feature at least I would love to see it as an in-game option.
Please share. |
[Veteran_Ahrotahntee]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:12:00 -
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Realistic magazines is something I've always enjoyed in a shooter, you get that tenuous stress of discarding a magazine as a gamble that you will need the extra shots to stay alive in the next encounter versus having enough shots in the long run to survive the match.
However something like this could never be an 'optional' feature; it would mess with the balance too much. I am pro realistic magazines, but I don't think that it would fit in with Dust.
The mechanic has merit, but my question is: does it really belong *here* of all places? |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:22:00 -
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Ahrotahntee wrote:Realistic magazines is something I've always enjoyed in a shooter, you get that tenuous stress of discarding a magazine as a gamble that you will need the extra shots to stay alive in the next encounter versus having enough shots in the long run to survive the match.
However something like this could never be an 'optional' feature; it would mess with the balance too much. I am pro realistic magazines, but I don't think that it would fit in with Dust.
The mechanic has merit, but my question is: does it really belong *here* of all places?
Well IMO it fits with the whole economic system perfectly: we loose everything we use (weapons, dropsuits, vehicles, etc...) so why not loose mags.
Balance-wise I would use RMM anyway even it means have a disadvantage: it would be my choice, my funeral, but I would use it 100% because this is how I like to play.
Also once you have learned to use RRM properly the disadvantage is highly reduced. |
[Veteran_Joe Darkwater]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 12:37:00 -
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I like the idea and I support it. RMM is a good choice.
I'd like to make an addition: Limited ammunition for tanks and vehicles, maybe even installations. This will take the need for support to an even further level.
Plus I'm pretty sure I'll miss the big differences between the big weapon categories if there's no ammunition. Hybrid use ammo and can overheat, but have a high RoF plus splash and since the ammunition is much smaller theres plenty, projectile only use ammo, cannot overheat but have limited ammunition due to the bullets size and lasers overheat quickly, have low RoF but dont use ammunition.
...or somehting like that :) |
[Veteran_Nadroj Isk]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 13:53:00 -
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Vehicles in this game are like the ammo bubble things they convert matter into bullets does anyone ever read the discriptions? |
[Veteran_Jin J'Rayle]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 14:58:00 -
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I support this idea as well.
Even though I reload mid-magazine like the rest of them, that's only because the game allows it and it's what all the "good" FPS players do.
But I always found the ability to reload without penalty of losing the ammo in the magazine "un-realisitc".
Yes, I played the "realism" card, but that's because I prefer a certain amount of plausibility in my Sci-Fi. |
[Veteran_Kaxius Zod]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:02:00 -
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As a person that is notorious for reloading after 1 shot I find the concept of RMM terrifying.
However I'm intrigued to see how I would change my play style with this option. Either way I'm game! |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:30:00 -
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Kaxius Zod wrote:As a person that is notorious for reloading after 1 shot I find the concept of RMM terrifying.
However I'm intrigued to see how I would change my play style with this option. Either way I'm game!
FPS have thought us to exploit the lack of RMM but I assure you that once you learn to use you will do more than fine.
Actually when you have RMM you think more, rush less, stick with your teammates, and in Dust 514 you eventually loose less money because of this new-found palystyle.
Also standard magazine Management has its downsides because you play less curiously and do silly things like reloading every 10 seconds: I am sure that all of us has at least once were killed while reloading only to realize that our mag was 90% full. |
[Veteran_LT Whichimazit]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:45:00 -
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Well people that play FPS all their life will play like this. I who Have been with command and Conquer and Warcraft from the start usually think before they act. |
[Veteran_Steve Renuken]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:45:00 -
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Me, I always stick my magazines back in my pack. which reloads them for me.
No way I'm carrying fifty mags, after all ;) |
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[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:59:00 -
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As much as i like the idea of this RMM but as DUST is at the moment where most people take upwards of a clip(edit: yes sorry i realise i used wrong term but i use it as slang for magazine as its easyier to spell) once you get in CQC but if that is fixed iam all for the idea. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 16:35:00 -
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I agree Alpha: first thing first. |
[Veteran_Bob Deorum]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 16:36:00 -
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ya i really like this idea as well, it will add a more dynamic feel to the battles, making teamwork more useful |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 07:06:00 -
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I really would love to hear CCP on RRM; I am not a programmer but I suppose it's not a difficult thing to implement.
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[Veteran_Virtual Bucaneer]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 07:13:00 -
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Good idea. It remembers me of other tactical games, but never seen this in a Sci Fi shooter. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 08:03:00 -
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Also I would go for "Remaining Bullet Waste Style" as the type of RMM to use in Dust 514 (In the link I added above there's a brief description of this kind of RMM) because IMO is the simplest one. |
[Veteran_TheAmazing FlyingPig]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 08:10:00 -
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While I do like this idea, I don't particularly care for the option to turn it on/off. It gives those with it off a distinct advantage over those with it on in the form of ammo capacity (provided those with the option "on" don't prematurely reload).
Otherwise a cool idea. I always wondered how they manage to take the bullets out of the clip / magazine (I'm not going into this debate - call it what you want) so quickly. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 08:17:00 -
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TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:While I do like this idea, I don't particularly care for the option to turn it on/off. It gives those with it off a distinct advantage over those with it on in the form of ammo capacity (provided those with the option "on" don't prematurely reload).
Otherwise a cool idea. I always wondered how they manage to take the bullets out of the clip / magazine (I'm not going into this debate - call it what you want) so quickly.
As I said I would turn it on even if it would mean having a disadvantage: it would be my choice to do so, and I would be ready to face the consequences.
Still I won't like to make RMM the rule: I don't want to force anyone to play in a way they don't like. |
[Veteran_TheAmazing FlyingPig]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 08:25:00 -
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Templar Two wrote:TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:While I do like this idea, I don't particularly care for the option to turn it on/off. It gives those with it off a distinct advantage over those with it on in the form of ammo capacity (provided those with the option "on" don't prematurely reload).
Otherwise a cool idea. I always wondered how they manage to take the bullets out of the clip / magazine (I'm not going into this debate - call it what you want) so quickly. As I said I would turn it on even if it would mean having a disadvantage: it would be my choice to do so, and I would be ready to face the consequences. Still I won't like to make RMM the rule: I don't want to force anyone to play In away they don't like.
Can't please everyone :v |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 08:32:00 -
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TheAmazing FlyingPig wrote:Can't please everyone :v
Pardon me but I don't follow you here, my fault sure: can you expand this argument. |
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[Veteran_Noc Tempre]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 09:09:00 -
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Well if you want a voodoo lore explanation of why the current system is "realistic" without RMM - nanobots. When you swap the old magazine nanobots refill it. The total ammo is therefore the number of shots your nanos can make, not how many are currently existing on your body.
It's a sci-fi shooter. There are a million different ways the partially spent magazine could be topped off automatically before your next reload. I think there are more important things than this. How would nanohives interact with this mechanic for example? Too much fuss for too little gameplay benefit IMO. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 09:22:00 -
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Noc Tempre wrote:Well if you want a voodoo lore explanation of why the current system is "realistic" without RMM - nanobots. When you swap the old magazine nanobots refill it. The total ammo is therefore the number of shots your nanos can make, not how many are currently existing on your body.
It's a sci-fi shooter. There are a million different ways the partially spent magazine could be topped off automatically before your next reload. I think there are more important things than this. How would nanohives interact with this mechanic for example? Too much fuss for too little gameplay benefit IMO.
Whether you throw you mag away or keep it the mechanics won't change:
-If you keep you mags Nanohives makes bullets for you.
-If you throw mags away Nanohives makes both bullets and mags alike...size-wise nanohives can make rockets, which are far bigger than mags, so there should be no problem. |
[Veteran_Noc Tempre]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 16:55:00 -
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Templar Two wrote:Noc Tempre wrote:Well if you want a voodoo lore explanation of why the current system is "realistic" without RMM - nanobots. When you swap the old magazine nanobots refill it. The total ammo is therefore the number of shots your nanos can make, not how many are currently existing on your body.
It's a sci-fi shooter. There are a million different ways the partially spent magazine could be topped off automatically before your next reload. I think there are more important things than this. How would nanohives interact with this mechanic for example? Too much fuss for too little gameplay benefit IMO. Whether you throw you mag away or keep it the mechanics won't change: -If you keep you mags Nanohives makes bullets for you. -If you throw mags away Nanohives makes both bullets and mags alike...size-wise nanohives can make rockets, which are far bigger than mags, so there should be no problem.
Yes, but we're only carrying two magazines, one in the gun, one in the nano-replenisher. This is needless complication. So how would the nano-hive pick which order to refill them? Furthermore what about skills that increase your capacity? Do they only give you an extra half mag? |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 17:50:00 -
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You are making things much more complicated than they actually are.
Think about RMM as a mode in which you have only magazines and no nano-replenisher: instead than having only 2 mags we have as much as need to keep our entire ammo supply.
Also RMM it's something we would like to have to make Dust 514 more challenging: an "hardcore mode" but only for reloading so to speak. |
[Veteran_Uberlander]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 19:42:00 -
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Sorry for my bad english,
I think the reload button should have 2 functions:
First: I'm in the middle of a duel
- Button tap for short: magazine is thrown away (ammunition is lost)
Secondly: I am safe, no opponent near
- Long press: Magazine is done back in the backpack. (Reserve ammunition).
But it takes you to load more than twice as long.
If the button is released during the "long reloading" (for example, suddenly appeared on an opponent) the magazine is still lost.
I think, thats tactical. |
[Veteran_Brass Stalker]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 20:05:00 -
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i am for this idea. but i would need to test drive it first. |
[Veteran_Kevalan]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 20:34:00 -
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This sounds utterly tedious. |
[Veteran_Khazra Khali'un]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 21:38:00 -
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While I personally wouldn't mind it too much, I think this game is already going to be tough enough for noobies to get into, adding this on top of this might really turn a lot of non hardcore gamers off from the game. So, I'm against it, even though it's a pretty cool idea. |
[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 04:34:00 -
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Ahrotahntee wrote:Realistic magazines is something I've always enjoyed in a shooter, you get that tenuous stress of discarding a magazine as a gamble that you will need the extra shots to stay alive in the next encounter versus having enough shots in the long run to survive the match.
However something like this could never be an 'optional' feature; it would mess with the balance too much. I am pro realistic magazines, but I don't think that it would fit in with Dust.
The mechanic has merit, but my question is: does it really belong *here* of all places?
Not sure about it, its good to me either way.
But I agree with you, in no circunstance this can be an option. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.10 07:08:00 -
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Uberlander your ide is very brilliant: with your system you managed to combine the two kinds of RMM.
Still this would required CCP to re-design the HUD a bit.
In fact we would need to have an icon indicating each remaining mag and next to them the exact number of bullets left in it.
If whe have 3 mags left it would look something like this:
[] =15
[] = 25
[] = 4
The reason why RMM should be just an option is because not everyone is comfortable with it.
I don't want to force RMM upon people: if you are comfortable the way the game is, the way it plays, why should I upset everything.
Also if CCP keeps it as an option everyone can try it out; if 90% of palyers eventually adopts RMM then CCP can make it into the standard. |
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[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 06:47:00 -
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Would you guys/gals like if I a make a list of the supporters for the RMM? |
[Veteran_Brass Stalker]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 07:09:00 -
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how would nano hives work? as of now they replenish a percentage of your full ammo count regardless of clip size. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 07:48:00 -
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Mag Size isn't an issue with RMM: it simply changes the way you handle ammo, discard them instead then keep them, but their quantity doesn't change. |
[Veteran_Brass Stalker]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 10:36:00 -
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mag size wasn't the question let me rephrase this. say you fire 15 bullets of a 45 round clip so now you have 30. you go into a nano hive and it gives you 5 bullets. so at the end of your ammo reserves you will have one clip left over that is 35 rounds? or 20 or 3 for that matter. |
[Veteran_xAckie]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 11:03:00 -
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I like the idea of RMM but it would need to be throughout the game, otherwise it would cause it be unbalanced.
And I like the idea of throwing away your mag away in the middle of a fight and losing the bullets but not when in a safe area.
As to the concern 'but I have thrown away a Mag i wont have as many bullets (Brass Stalker) we could get the nanohives to remake magazines?
it will make nanaohives more useful and tactical... |
[Veteran_Rhapsodyy]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 17:48:00 -
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Its an interesting idea, ill give you that. As to wheather ccp would do it i dont know. Maybe something down the line remember ccp are in this for the long haul. |
[Veteran_Anatoly Gasputin]
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Posted - 2012.06.11 20:55:00 -
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I liked the RMM in Front-lines: Fuel of War.
Game was more tactical-ish IMO, no more "199/200 ammo in mag omg must reload!"
Just that I like this idea. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.12 06:41:00 -
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Brass Stalker
First: sorry If I answer you so late.
Second: It depends on how/what RMM will be implemented by CCP: RRM-Throw , RMM-Conserve or RMM-Universal the one proposed by Underlander that combines the two others.
If we will have RRM-T then Nanohives will have to make magazines and bullets as well.
I we have RMM-C only bullets will be made, and I suppose all bullets will be replenished not just a percentage.
If we will have RMM-U both things selectively. |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 12:50:00 -
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CCP since you are going to archive all of our post after the character/forum wipe I would like to know if you are considering RMM.
I need to know because I will probably have to re-propose it again and frankly it will be frustrating both for me and you. |
[Veteran_BeanBagKing dot]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:41:00 -
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I'm all for it, but not optional. It either needs to be everyone in or nobody I think. I like the added realism of RMM, but realism isn't something I demand from FPS's to have fun with them. I would like to see CCP's thoughts on this too. Do you intend for there to be some kind of naite-reloading device that always keeps our mags full, or are you just letting it slide like other FPS's without explanation, or is RMM something you would consider? |
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[Veteran_Vetis Rex]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 14:53:00 -
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personally i dont like RMM. i like in fire fights i can reload and not have to worry massivly about where my next refill will be (if not carrying my own ofc) makes me to reliant on someone putting down nano hives, and atm with random pugs that rarely happens.
in a world where nano bots make the battle happen, it seems to make little sense they wouldnt be able to refill half empty mags when there being stored away. how many soldiers carry 50 different magazines anyway.
however saying that its not a game breaker by any means, and as they say adapt or die. so if majority want it then who am i to argue. |
[Veteran_Milk Supreme]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 15:22:00 -
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I'm all for it
Also realism isn't the word to use around here seeing as though this is a sci fi shooter
Believability fits though |
[Veteran_Fat Axel]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 18:31:00 -
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+1 cause not enough games have this feature and i think realistic ammo consumption would work well with a game that is pretty dam realistic |
[Veteran_Beers O'Malley]
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Posted - 2012.06.18 19:01:00 -
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Templar Two wrote:I have a bold proposition. I proposed to have Realistic Magazine Management in Dust 514 AS AN OPTION. Check this link to learn more about RMM. I think it would be great to have RMM in Dust 514 for these reasons: - More realism: players looking for more realism in FPS will have a further reason to pick Dust 514.
- A more compelling/tactical gamepaly which means more variety and so less stagnation over the years.
- With RMM teamwork & class variety will become even more essential/rewarding: for instance players with Nanohives will become more useful than ever.
- Supply installations will be even more useful/meaningful: Real Time Strategy elements/gamepaly in Dust 514 will consequently become more rewarding/appealing.
- RMM might lead to the creation of a new set of skills dedicated to reloading expanding so the skill tree a bit and giving us more options/variety.
- RMM can be used as a parameter to further balance weapons: a useful extra tool for the developers.
I know that not everyone likes RMM, and that is really rare in shooters, but if it won't make it as a standard feature at least I would love to see it as an in-game option. Please share.
No. clips are fine as they are.
Here is why. There has to be a balance with dps from guns (which smaller clips would reduce greatly) and suits abilty to tank, self rep, and be remote rep'd. When you lower dps of guns you actually are nerfing smaller clips guns and boosting guns with larger clips like heavy machine guns.
Right now I can take down a heavy suit with a credon assult rifle if I am smart about it with 1.5 clips (I'm not a protoman-esq). Once I max my clip size I should be able to do it in one clip given I am close and getting most hits. My assult rifle skills for dps are maxed. This is fair in mind since I don't always win that battle, let alone they are using more then malitia heavy.
In addition you are giving a boost to using turrents vs more gun fights. Further, you reduce your ability to fight multiple attackers at once. Good luck trying to kill a scout suit with shotgun with level 5 biotic in the lows. They will just dance and juke till your run out of your 15 shot clip and 1/2 shot you while you are thinking how cool you are for using realistic size clips. 
I have no issue with it in general but I think ccp put clip size where it is for a reason. While as a stand alone idea it may be good you have to see the balance and game play impact it will have.
I suspect you wont see any changes here from ccp.
You can always reload after 15 shots when fighting me if you really wanted too  |
[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.19 10:15:00 -
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RMM it 's less about lore/realism and more about challenge for the player. |
[Veteran_Tuurn Wolfe]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 00:21:00 -
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Ahrotahntee wrote:Realistic magazines is something I've always enjoyed in a shooter, you get that tenuous stress of discarding a magazine as a gamble that you will need the extra shots to stay alive in the next encounter versus having enough shots in the long run to survive the match.
However something like this could never be an 'optional' feature; it would mess with the balance too much. I am pro realistic magazines, but I don't think that it would fit in with Dust.
The mechanic has merit, but my question is: does it really belong *here* of all places?
I agree that this is a great mechanic and I'd like to see it used in more games. However, I don't think DUST is the place for it.
On a further note, the variation of RMM where you loose all the ammo from a discarded mag is also called "mag loss". I would like to see a game that uses both the Magazine Tracking style and Mag Loss in combination. An operator has 2 types of reloads- a speed reload where he drops his mag and puts a fresh one in (Mag Loss), and a tactical reload where he puts the old mag back in his vest (Mag Tracking). Why not give the player the option of either pressing the reload button once for a speed reload, or holding the reload button down to do a tactical reload? Simple mechanic, but adds tons of complexity and realism to the game.
That's my idea, anyways. I don't expect to see it in DUST, but I think it would be an awesome mechanic to see in some game eventually. |
[Veteran_Noc Tempre]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 00:31:00 -
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It's a perfectly fine mechanic that more tactical games should employ. But I think you're missing the trees for the forest when suggesting this would add to, instead of tediously detract from, the depth of DUST combat. |
[Veteran_gangsta nachos]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 01:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
Sorry if it has been said didn't feel like reading all the posts but with RMM if this is what you want then you should have to buy ammo as well as everything else |
[Veteran_MARVIN JORDAN]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 02:58:00 -
[49] - Quote
its a feature that i have always enjoyed but not in dust 514. Because it is fiction magazines reloading them selves could be realistic for the eve universe. I would be disappointed in the fact that magazines even still exist i just wouldnt like this feature in dust514 but if they do i would like the option to disable it.
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[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.20 06:32:00 -
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Tuurn Wolfe wrote:
....On a further note, the variation of RMM where you loose all the ammo from a discarded mag is also called "mag loss". I would like to see a game that uses both the Magazine Tracking style and Mag Loss in combination.....
We have that already, Uberlander devised a great system to achieve that (check page 2)
Guys/gals lore-wise this is a video game: RMM would be an option for players that like more challenge in FPS. |
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[Veteran_Templar Two]
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Posted - 2012.06.27 10:04:00 -
[51] - Quote
Edited. |
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