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G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
81
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Posted - 2015.05.16 09:30:00 -
[1] - Quote
Bammsters would like to present our 2nd proposal, in the ongoing series of DUST514 Proposals for Change!
What follow here is the Introduction and Goals for this proposal - for the full version in PDF (28mb) click here - for the Google Docs version, click here. Video version is available here. Previous version, on Planetary Conquest, can be read here.
Current gamemodes in DUST514 are largely infantry centered, to the point that vehicles have had to be limited in certain gamemodes (Ambush) to avoid issues. Latest gamemode, Acquisition, does open more up for the use of vehicles, but is still centered around infantry.
At the same time, the majority of maps are at least partially infantry-oriented, with the use of the small-medium-large sockets where vehicles are generally at a disadvantage (by design) in the large socket buildings.
To counter the trend of infantry everywhere, this is a proposal for a vehicle-centric game-mode and map-collection, where infantry is relegated to a support-role and vehicles are required for traversing the maps and reach all objectives.
A limitation in the current (May 2015) version of DUST514 is the lack of water, lava, trees, or other impassable map-elements; these would help funnel infantry, while being passable by Dropships or even LAVs using (natural/artificial) ramps.
Goals: * Game-mode centered around the mobility and offensive capabilities of vehicles * Map(s) sized to benefit vehicles over infantry, due to obstacles and distances * Direct value from Dropships and LAVs as both mobility enhancers and support equipment (e.g. LogiLAV/ScoutLAVs, mCRU, Remote Reppers etc) * Space for both HAVs and Dropships, without either overpowering the other (e.g. redline rails)
We would very much like to point out that this is simply meant as the basis for a discussion, and that we're more than open to making updated versions of this document as suggestions and ideas come in from the community. Join us, in making something great for DUST514!
Note: CCP has already been given early access to the v1.0a (WIP) of this document. |
cammando 007
Immortal Guides Learning Alliance
27
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Posted - 2015.05.16 09:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
umm yeah like placing an objective on some hovering thingy 500 ft above the ground or umm making an huge huge map which allows a lot use of lavs ...or making a game mod which allows only one person to use only vechiles to win |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8813
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Posted - 2015.05.16 09:42:00 -
[3] - Quote
"Counter the trend of Infantry everywhere?"
This sentence alone makes me want to dismiss you into the same limbo of mockery I consign the whiny nerds who cry that vehicles should be removed from acquisition.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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BAMM HAVOC
Carbon 7
872
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Posted - 2015.05.16 10:23:00 -
[4] - Quote
/me points at disclaimer
G and I are both very aware that this is not the answer. Ideas man, ideas.... the aim of this is to get people talking and get folks responding with their suggestions and ideas.
These are our ideas, they may not be perfect and are subject to change if a better one comes along.
May I hear yours?
YOU TUBEZ
BLOGZ
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8818
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Posted - 2015.05.16 10:53:00 -
[5] - Quote
The idea requires a map without a redline first off. Themaps are too constricted to make a vehicle focus.
Second, small sockets only for this game mode. Anything that promotes CQC meatgrinders will negate the utility of HAVs, shield vs. Dropships too much and allow avoidance of vehicle assets so that HAVs can be passively marginalized as well as AV spammed.
Infantry focus should natively lean to cal/min ranged combat with CQC being the exception, not the norm unless some enterprising dropship wombat dumps a gallente squad on your head.
Objectives would need to be widely spaced, preferably at minimum 500m apart. A vehicle-centric game mode would be showcased by wide spaces where terrain, not artificial constructs provide most of the cover.
Due to the meatgrinder nature of any such map as well as constant exposure to AV and enemy vehicles, clone counts would need to be disabled like in acquisition.
Unlike other game modes this design would almost necessitate vehicle assets and put them at risk.
Vehicle limit should be raised by two for dropships and LAVs only. More tanks on the field creates issues until we can do away with the 16v16 limit.
Transportation and fast mobility shoukd be the game winner here.
I would suggest a siege mode, akin to domination where the defenders hold. The hack point Or automatically spawn at the new hack point if one gets shut down, creating a rolling defense.
If the attackers can shut down the hack point in under 10 minutes ( takes three minutes to shut down and can be counterhacked) the timer adds 5 min and the next objective opens.
Three hack points shut down and attacker wins. if the timer runs out, defender wins.
Special map restriction: uplinks last for 20 seconds due to automated defenses. Thus the attacking force must rely on coordinated vehicle transport and combat support to reach the objectives.
Once the second hack goes off the uplinks behave normallly and the final battle begins.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion.
3528
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Posted - 2015.05.16 11:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
I know you vehicle users have a lot of prolific whiners on the forums but let it be known that there seems to be as many infantry players that seem to want to hold back further vehicle usage.
I for one would welcome huge maps that really favour dropship and fast LAV usage or some other clever level design ideas.. Tank's already have an important role in many maps, a good tanker can easily own countless infantry if they play smart at specific locations.
Lets give regular LAV`s and dropships more to do ehh? (Remember that Scout LAV, I still have a fitting for that in my fitting screen.... want to use again! CCP Stick a cloak on the scout LAV plzzzz)
Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa?
SCV Ready!
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G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
84
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Posted - 2015.05.16 20:34:00 -
[7] - Quote
Hey Breakin', let me try to address your items :) (Effing 5-quote limits...)
Breakin Stuff wrote:The idea requires a map without a redline first off. Themaps are too constricted to make a vehicle focus. If you look at the picture on page 14, that's about 4.5 km wide. Redlines on pages 15 and 16 are ca 3.5-4.0 km wide. The base map in DUST514 is 5x5 km, based on early intel.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Second, small sockets only for this game mode. Anything that promotes CQC meatgrinders will negate the utility of HAVs, shield vs. Dropships too much and allow avoidance of vehicle assets so that HAVs can be passively marginalized as well as AV spammed. I think that's already covered, page 7, Building sockets.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Infantry focus should natively lean to cal/min ranged combat with CQC being the exception, not the norm unless some enterprising dropship wombat dumps a gallente squad on your head.
Objectives would need to be widely spaced, preferably at minimum 500m apart. A vehicle-centric game mode would be showcased by wide spaces where terrain, not artificial constructs provide most of the cover. The sample map layout have them about 500 to 1500 meters apart. Particularly Charlie to Delta is a 1500m race, through an open meatgrinder
Breakin Stuff wrote:Due to the meatgrinder nature of any such map as well as constant exposure to AV and enemy vehicles, clone counts would need to be disabled like in acquisition. I'd tend to disagree - it must be possible to clone-out your enemy to simply win the match early. Alternatively, it risks lasting too long and become a chore. Definitely open to discuss this item though! :)
Breakin Stuff wrote:Unlike other game modes this design would almost necessitate vehicle assets and put them at risk. Definitely, and we touch on that in the video - Newbros would be at a heavy disadvantage due to lacking ISK and skils. Is also why, page 4, we note it should be available in Pubs and FW, to allow 2 different Risk/Reward sets, so people may be able to use cheaper fits in Pubs (dreaming?) |
G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
84
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 20:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Vehicle limit should be raised by two for dropships and LAVs only. More tanks on the field creates issues until we can do away with the 16v16 limit. I think we covered this under feasibility, but removing large sockets should free up enough RAM to significantly up the vehicle limits. Page 4 does include smaller team sizes, in relation to the previous PC proposal, and ultimately it should be feasible for almost everyone to spawn in their own LAV/HAV/DS!
Breakin Stuff wrote:Transportation and fast mobility shoukd be the game winner here. Tactics should play in, in where you deploy who using what vehicle - a well-placed fast LAV with an mCRU should be an viable option, as should 8 HAVs in a pack :)
Breakin Stuff wrote:I would suggest a siege mode, akin to domination where the defenders hold. The hack point Or automatically spawn at the new hack point if one gets shut down, creating a rolling defense. Page 8 and forward describes the progression ... Please re-read, I think it covers what you're looking for.
Breakin Stuff wrote:If the attackers can shut down the hack point in under 10 minutes ( takes three minutes to shut down and can be counterhacked) the timer adds 5 min and the next objective opens. I realized that incrementing the timer dynamically would be very beneficial, yes - this was added recently. As the proposal has defenders owning all infrastructure from the beginning, defenders re-hacking a lost Objective was decided to be a non-item, and basically the design says that this has no effect: the battle will have moved on to the next objective...
Breakin Stuff wrote:Three hack points shut down and attacker wins. if the timer runs out, defender wins. 3-5 objectives, depending on map-size, see page 4.
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G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
84
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Posted - 2015.05.16 20:36:00 -
[9] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Special map restriction: uplinks last for 20 seconds due to automated defenses. Thus the attacking force must rely on coordinated vehicle transport and combat support to reach the objectives. I think this is over-complicating it - in the design, uplinks are almost completed rendered useless, and focus is on mCRUs.
Breakin Stuff wrote:Once the second hack goes off the uplinks behave normallly and the final battle begins. This part I'm not understanding - clarify?
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3178
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Posted - 2015.05.16 20:46:00 -
[10] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:I know you vehicle users have a lot of prolific whiners on the forums but let it be known that there seems to be as many infantry players that seem to want to hold back further vehicle usage.
I for one would welcome huge maps that really favour dropship and fast LAV usage or some other clever level design ideas.. Tank's already have an important role in many maps, a good tanker can easily own countless infantry if they play smart at specific locations.
Lets give regular LAV`s and dropships more to do ehh? (Remember that Scout LAV, I still have a fitting for that in my fitting screen.... want to use again! CCP Stick a cloak on the scout LAV plzzzz)
And that role is what exactly? At current, they are just big ass slayers of everything they see. If they were taken out of the equation, there would be little change to the flow of the matches.
Top lel
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G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
88
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Posted - 2015.05.17 10:19:00 -
[11] - Quote
cammando 007 wrote:umm yeah like placing an objective on some hovering thingy 500 ft above the ground or umm making an huge huge map which allows a lot use of lavs ...or making a game mod which allows only one person to use only vechiles to win In the sample map (see the last sections in PDF), I didn't so much place stuff in the air, but Bravo was specifically placed at an elevated position. There, a small/medium socket installation could then perhaps have a "heli-pad" (dropship-pad?) with the terminal on it - allow for easy access by DS, and a nightmare to defend |
deezy dabest
2291
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Posted - 2015.05.17 10:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
You do realize this is not world of tanks right? Vehicles are meant to support infantry not the other way around. Also I think we all know that tankers would barely play a tank mode as they only tank so they can farm infantry.
Personally it would not make me sad in the slightest to see tanks totally removed but I understand that tanks are why some people enjoy the game so I understand that calling for their removal would be going too far. |
Adelia Lafayette
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
815
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Posted - 2015.05.17 12:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
I would love to see a cloud city style map on a gas giant with floating platforms that need traversed either by bridges or using dropships. I would also love to see them at different heights rather than a flat map.
things that I could see needing done to support this game mode. -new sockets capable of connecting themselves. -depth based redline so when infantry and vehicles go below a point they die instead of endlessly fall. -each team getting a pad that spawns a free dropship for traversing the map and respawns the dropship when it dies. Sucks for your team if you let it get hacked.
Assault dropship gets blown up....
(Gò»°Gûí°n+ëGò»n+¦ Gö+GöüGö+ "Kitten this I'm out"...
..."I'm back"
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CommanderBolt
KILL-EM-QUICK Rise Of Legion.
3536
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Posted - 2015.05.17 15:22:00 -
[14] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:I know you vehicle users have a lot of prolific whiners on the forums but let it be known that there seems to be as many infantry players that seem to want to hold back further vehicle usage.
I for one would welcome huge maps that really favour dropship and fast LAV usage or some other clever level design ideas.. Tank's already have an important role in many maps, a good tanker can easily own countless infantry if they play smart at specific locations.
Lets give regular LAV`s and dropships more to do ehh? (Remember that Scout LAV, I still have a fitting for that in my fitting screen.... want to use again! CCP Stick a cloak on the scout LAV plzzzz) And that role is what exactly? At current, they are just big ass slayers of everything they see. If they were taken out of the equation, there would be little change to the flow of the matches.
Tanks slaying infantry and vehicles is there role. It forces people to take out the new big threat. I would love actual objectives for HAV`s and vehicles such as "Blow up this gate to the complex for vehicle access" , "blow up this power generator to knock out enemy MCC shields / Defend this power generator" etc...
Vitantur Nothus wrote: Why hide a solution under frothy pile of derpa?
SCV Ready!
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cammando 007
Immortal Guides Learning Alliance
28
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Posted - 2015.05.17 15:44:00 -
[15] - Quote
for dropships - placing an objective 500 m in the air floating on a hovering thingy ....so that so people in dropship can exit the vechile and hack it .. this game mod increases the chance of DOGFIGHTS Av ...
for LAV - placing it in a long tunnel with no cover ....the only thing they can do is use proximity explosvies to defend they objective ...
for hav - like an deathmatch only tanks
they above ideas are just an idea feel free to tweak them |
Michael-J-Fox Richards
The Scope Gallente Federation
332
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Posted - 2015.05.17 15:54:00 -
[16] - Quote
youtube.com/watch?v=sP4FOkaeRaM
alts are for sissies. too legit, too legit to quit.
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Himiko Kuronaga
Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback
5922
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:"Counter the trend of Infantry everywhere?"
This sentence alone makes me want to dismiss you into the same limbo of mockery I consign the whiny nerds who cry that vehicles should be removed from acquisition.
You don't even have a 1.0 KDR.
Please do not speak in any thread which asks for the opinion of an individual who is properly enlightened as to the workings of the game. Especially if you are going to do so in a derogatory manner.
Usually banned for being too awesome.
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Michael-J-Fox Richards
The Scope Gallente Federation
333
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Posted - 2015.05.17 16:12:00 -
[18] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:"Counter the trend of Infantry everywhere?"
This sentence alone makes me want to dismiss you into the same limbo of mockery I consign the whiny nerds who cry that vehicles should be removed from acquisition. You don't even have a 1.0 KDR. Please do not speak in any thread which asks for the opinion of an individual who is properly enlightened as to the workings of the game. Especially if you are going to do so in a derogatory manner.
damn the OP got electronically held down against his will and raeped up the ass. are you gonna take that bro? damn dude
alts are for sissies. too legit, too legit to quit.
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3182
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Posted - 2015.05.17 22:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Making maps either infantry or vehicle based ends up with screwing people out of gameplay, and separates the playerbase. This has also been time and time again shown to simply not work, as for example Planerside 2 trying to cater to one or another just straight fails for both sides. That applies with gamemodes. Simply making a gamemode use vehicles as infantry doesn't help vehicles become better roled, and therefore in general better to use for pilots, it probably won't even be a good mode in the first place due to the cost of vehicles.
This idea of balancing based of a dichotomy needs to stop. It doesn't lead to balance, it leads to imbalance.
Top lel
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3182
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Posted - 2015.05.17 22:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:"Counter the trend of Infantry everywhere?"
This sentence alone makes me want to dismiss you into the same limbo of mockery I consign the whiny nerds who cry that vehicles should be removed from acquisition. You don't even have a 1.0 KDR. Please do not speak in any thread which asks for the opinion of an individual who is properly enlightened as to the workings of the game. Especially if you are going to do so in a derogatory manner.
Oh wow, you are either the dumbest person alive, or the slickest troll.
Top lel
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Godin Thekiller
Negative-Feedback. Negative-Feedback
3184
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Posted - 2015.05.17 22:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
CommanderBolt wrote:Godin Thekiller wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:I know you vehicle users have a lot of prolific whiners on the forums but let it be known that there seems to be as many infantry players that seem to want to hold back further vehicle usage.
I for one would welcome huge maps that really favour dropship and fast LAV usage or some other clever level design ideas.. Tank's already have an important role in many maps, a good tanker can easily own countless infantry if they play smart at specific locations.
Lets give regular LAV`s and dropships more to do ehh? (Remember that Scout LAV, I still have a fitting for that in my fitting screen.... want to use again! CCP Stick a cloak on the scout LAV plzzzz) And that role is what exactly? At current, they are just big ass slayers of everything they see. If they were taken out of the equation, there would be little change to the flow of the matches. Tanks slaying infantry and vehicles is there role. It forces people to take out the new big threat. I would love actual objectives for HAV`s and vehicles such as "Blow up this gate to the complex for vehicle access" , "blow up this power generator to knock out enemy MCC shields / Defend this power generator" etc...
1: Their*
2: Slaying is done by ever single suit and vehicle in the game. That is not a role. Again, if it was taken out of the equation, little would change.
3: It being able to defend or destroy structures is vastly different than killing everything.
Top lel
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G Clone
Amarr Templars Amarr Empire
89
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Posted - 2015.05.18 11:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
Godin Thekiller wrote:Making maps either infantry or vehicle based ends up with screwing people out of gameplay, and separates the playerbase. This has also been time and time again shown to simply not work, as for example Planerside 2 trying to cater to one or another just straight fails for both sides. That applies with gamemodes. Simply making a gamemode use vehicles as infantry doesn't help vehicles become better roled, and therefore in general better to use for pilots, it probably won't even be a good mode in the first place due to the cost of vehicles.
This idea of balancing based of a dichotomy needs to stop. It doesn't lead to balance, it leads to imbalance.
Well, I'm glad you at least read the whole thing, before concluding it was designed to be without any room for infantry. |
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