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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
815
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Posted - 2015.05.16 01:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
Apex suits.
In a Universe of Slot Flattening - to which I'm in full agreement - I must ask if anyone has any creative ideas as to the current BPOs vs the APEX BPO and how we might address their value? Seeing as an Apex suit was 2-3x the cost of other BPO's. How should it be handled respective to the initial price investments of players?
Let me add that while I would like to maintain the value of the APEX suits I would rather have Slot Flattening. The APEX suits should not become the reason for a hangup on progression with this idea. But, if we can maintain that value, add some cool stuff to the game, and improve the NPE (New Player Experience) and VPE (Vet Player Experience) then I think we should take the time to figure it out. That may just be me, and that's ok. The game is not made just for me, though I am sure I'm not the only one that may be thinking the same thing.
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NOTE:
*NO Refunds*. Don't talk about it, don't entertain it. That kind of talk frightens businesses from doing what should be done.This game is progressing into something with depth and this helps the NPE greatly by reducing the powergap and allowing new players to see that things can get better. Refund talk may potentially stop that.
We payed to play. The risks were understood.
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APEX suits were created to be an introduction for New Players to get the feel of a suit and step into a setup that they could see. The introduction of being able to edit them has made the possibility of Slot Flattening even greater and allowed for a vision of how to introduce the NewPlayer into this FPS universe we call Dust 514.
Despite the fact that the APEX suits were to be tailored for New Players many Vets have them too. Editing the setups opens up a few more play possibilities, but the PG/CPU limitation is strangling the fits. But it is fun and it allows us to see what a flattened progression may look like.
Quote:Aero Yassavi wrote:
While true tiericide would make APEX suits less appealing, they would still come with free prefit mods which is something.
Prefit is nice... but can it be more? A SKIN was not the reason behind the purchase, nor is it 2-3x the value of current BPOs/SKINS that will have the same slot layout.
SUITS and SKINS
A logical postulation as to the fate of the APEX suit is that it, like the other BPO's, will turn from suit to SKIN.
Normal Suit BPOs -> Skins. Skins are now as expensive as older BPOs. And while I bought some BPO's for the skin many I bought simply for the function or the class as there was no other choice available (commando and logis for example). BUT
APEX's are a different matter. Even thought they are Golden I don't believe players bought these for the paint job - a fact supported in many a discussion :) - They were purchased for their performance - and now the APEX is more valuable than ever because it can be edited... minimally, but it can still be edited.
Moving forward to a future of Slot Flattening and PG/CPU tier equalization immediately devalues the APEX Suits and increases the value of the BPO modules as one could buy a BPO suit/Core/Skin and then the BPO modules to fit it for nearly the same price as a Current APEX. The small, but appreciated, differences and benefits like unlimited cloaks, mines, variant weapons, and other specialties make the APEX suits a little more valuable, but only slightly since those items cannot be transferred to another suit. For example, I can get a militia CR BPO but not a STD assault CR BPO, or a breach AR, that come standard on some of these APEX suits. The uniques makes some dropsuits automatically more valuable than other APEX models over a militia BPO copy once the Slots are equalized, but only just.
So what would make APEX have more value (2-3x) than a normal BPO? Prefit is nice, but not nearly the value of what was paid. And while there is a SKIN argument (buying BPO's for the look) that didn't really apply to the reason for these purchases.
WHAT TO DO? I guess what i'm saying is for this to move into a reality are there any good ideas?
I have a few ideas, they may not be good, but here they are:
1. What about the ADV Gear idea? Since an APEX was to give a NEWBro a step up APEXs could have some ADV Modules. A BPO with BPO modules will cost near the same, thus to make the APEX a worthy buy give it some ADV Gear and an ADV CPU/PG setup. Then it becomes a lifetime suit that a player will grow in. Since it outpaces a basic/STD in all stats and will now be editable to be able to fit some new ADV and PRO setups in the future a player can grow in experience with just a few of these. And Vets will play with them too.
2. What about making some APEX modules into BPOs? What if each APEX Suit came with BPO versions of some of its modules/EQ? Meaning that each APEX could come with 1 Item and 2 Modules that are unique to the original suit, or racially significant, that would then be BPO's to fit on any suit. For example what if OWNING An APEX Seraph (Amarr Logi) makes the BPO uplink / ASCR / and Precision Scanner Module now BPO's to use on any suit as the player saw fit? Or perhaps an APEX Tiger (Minmatar Scout) with RE's / Nova Knives / and Myofibril module?
This is more about packaging a deal that offers a way to get uniques at a higher cost than just purchasing the militia BPO module. This creates new incentive to purchase other models for a current revenue stream and allows for New Players that have purchased the APEX suits to get some lasting value. Because, lets face it, if you bought one and didn't like it - it is now a waste of space and you don't get to use anything. Now there is something more.
[Cont. in #2]
I'm open to other ideas. Please express you opinion and reasoning. Simple No's don't help to progress ideas. Thank you.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
815
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Posted - 2015.05.16 01:41:00 -
[2] - Quote
in
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
11681
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Posted - 2015.05.16 07:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
One way you can look at it is by looking at how Eve Online has done tieracide.
Let's look at the mining ships in Eve such as the Mining Barges. These ships use to come in tiers with the Procurer being the smallest miner with limited capacity and defenses and only one strip mining laser. The Retriever comes in as the second step with more capacity, an extra strip mining laser, and some more defenses. The Covetor comes in as the final step (highest tier of its class) with one more strip mining laser bringing the total to 3, strongest defense, best cargo capacity, and best mining yield overall.
But then came tieracide and the results are as follows. Their slots arrangements have been modified accordingly.
Procurer
Best overall defenses making it the strongest ship of its class.
5% bonus to shield hit points per level.
2% reduction to strip miner duration per level.
150% bonus to strip miner yield.
Gives 50% buff to drone damage and hitpoints.
Very limited in capacity but has great maneuverability.
Low Slots <---------armor and mining laser upgrade mods go here
2
Med Slots <---------shield mods go here.
4
High Slots<---------where the strip miner is fitted
1
Retriever
Best ICE miner of its class.
Best overall cargo space of its class.
Some defenses.
5% capacity to ORE hold per level.
2% reduced strip miner duration per level.
25% bonus to strip miner yield.
20% reduction in ice harvester duration and activation cost.
Low Slots
3
Med Slots
1
High Slots
2
Covetor
5% bonus to strip miner range per level.
4% reduction in strip miner duration per level.
Low Slots
2
Med Slots
1
High Slots
3
It's a summary of the ships, but you get the idea. You can look more into that at https://null-sec.com/hangar/
Basically all ships are no longer stepping stones to the next. Each ship has their own use. In the case of the Mining Barges, the Procurer will be the tanked miner, the Retriever will be the roomy miner, and the Covetor will be the efficient miner. The Covetor is the one that requires a dedicated hauler because of its small cargo space.
On top of that, training up one level of the skill book "Mining Barge" unlocks all three of these ships instead of having to train up level 3 and 5 for the Retriever and Covetor respectively. The skill books now only provide bonuses for those ships.
To put this into better context, imagine unlocking the Minmatar Scout M1, M/1-Series, and the Mk.0 with just level 1 of the Minmatar Scout skill book. The skill book now only provides bonuses to the suits but the suits have been individual re-purposed. Maybe one getting the speed buff, one getting the damage buff, and one getting the hack buff.
Sorry for dragging this on before getting towards APEX suits. For those, I can go with something like turning them into SKIN modules but with a twist. If you fit the APEX SKIN module onto a suit, that suit gains a special frame/class/race specific bonus (whatever that might be). Since APEX can be acquired via LP as well, this probably would catch the attention of the FW runners like me. This could also give FRAME suits like the Minmatar Medium Frame or Minmatar Light Frame some purpose by fitting these APEX SKINs on them because of the bonus they carry.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8808
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 07:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.
Let's let rattati finish his theorycrafting and find out what he comes up with before we make assumptions.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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Maken Tosch
DUST University
Ivy League
11681
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Posted - 2015.05.16 14:21:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.
Let's let rattati finish his theorycrafting and find out what he comes up with before we make assumptions.
I don't like making assumptions either, but I feel we should at least help them with some ideas along the way. However, if CCP Rattati is able to come up with a better idea on his own, that would be great.
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Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
8830
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 14:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Easy fix:
If rattati ever makes rigs or weapon mods a thing, standard BPOs cannot be thusly modified. APEX/BPC should have full capability for rigs/mods.
Add to that your suggestion of gaining BPOs of whatever the APEX is stocked with and you have a solid idea.
WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
817
|
Posted - 2015.05.16 20:48:00 -
[7] - Quote
Maken Tosch wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.
Let's let rattati finish his theorycrafting and find out what he comes up with before we make assumptions. I don't like making assumptions either, but I feel we should at least help them with some ideas along the way. However, if CCP Rattati is able to come up with a better idea on his own, that would be great.
This.
My purpose is to have a proposal for when it may be needed and offer up ideas as alternatives or possibilities when considering future changes.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
Fraternity of St. Venefice
Amarr Empire
819
|
Posted - 2015.05.17 01:12:00 -
[8] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:I think we're putting the cart before the horse here.
Let's let rattati finish his theorycrafting and find out what he comes up with before we make assumptions.
That's my job. :)
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Soulskulptor
GunFall Mobilization
45
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Posted - 2015.06.17 03:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Was looking into the details on slot progression and I kinda like it. Suits of all tiers having the same slots but varying PG/CPU? Looks like a good idea. Kinda iffy on the thread about power cores, if PG/CPU are determined by a separate item than what's the point of having different suits for each tier?
Protofits seems to already have details on the changes
We stopped looking for monsters under our beds when we realized they were inside us.
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Bright Cloud
Namtar Elite
Gallente Federation
1
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Posted - 2015.06.17 07:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
The reason why Apex is more expensive then regular BPO's is because they come with prefitted weapons, modules and equipment while the regular STD BPO's come with nothing at all. Another reason why Apex>Basic BPO is that apex will still have more PG and CPU.
Rudimentary Mercs of scrubs and incompetence. You touch my mind, fumbling in Ignorance, incapable of understanding.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
844
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Posted - 2015.06.18 20:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:The reason why Apex is more expensive then regular BPO's is because they come with prefitted weapons, modules and equipment while the regular STD BPO's come with nothing at all. Another reason why Apex>Basic BPO is that apex will still have more PG and CPU.
It sounds like I may not have been as clear as I had wanted when explaining my thoughts.
1 Apex is about 3x the cost of 1 STD BPO (skin) Could buy 3 BPO suits or 1 BPO suit and some Milita BPO Weapons or Modules.
Therefore
2 Apex would then equal about 6 BPO suits
If For the SAME price as an APEX suit that is already prefitted A person can buy 1 BPO Suit and several BPO modules and/or weapons.
With Slot Equalization a STD BPO suddenly has the same fitting power as the Apex (the same amount of slots). Therefore a BPO suit and a few modules are a better buy IF that person is going to use more than 1 suit setup when they play AS the individual militia BPO modules can be fit on any suit and infinitely. If the person was going to buy another APEX they would have enough to buy 1 or two more suits that just look better and some more modules and have the ability to outfit their suits any way they like. Milita BPOS allow for alot of creation testing on a myriad of suits.
Ultimately if the person is will to pay AUR there would be better setups from just purchasing the militia modules than an APEX suit. Certainly the militia modules are slightly more fitting intensive, but only slightly - though I get that they can add up when all the slots would be filled. (making buying an APEX and then some milita modules valuable to still maintain free suits - but thats alot of AUR).
That is why an APEX, that is much more expensive, loses value in the long run. More suits with more modules that can be infinitely changed is a better buy than 1 or more APEX.
IF some Unique BPO Modules came with an APEX purchase then there is inherently more value in the suit and it nullifies the needs to buy BPO militia modules for customizing other suits. Really defining the APEX as the best value buy.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
844
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Posted - 2015.06.18 20:37:00 -
[12] - Quote
Having reviewed the slot flattening proposals the APEX appears to be in the STD+ area in fitting capacity. Good move, it is a little better, but I would like to see just a little bit more in terms of value - ie. module BPO's.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Apocalyptic Destroyerr
Shining Flame
Amarr Empire
353
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 21:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
To much to read, **ck got caught in blender. |
RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
844
|
Posted - 2015.06.18 22:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
Apocalyptic Destroyerr wrote:To much to read, **ck got caught in blender.
If I could add pictures I would
and good luck with that injury
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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korrah silain
True Illuminate
64
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Posted - 2015.06.18 22:16:00 -
[15] - Quote
Perhaps once tiercide hits they should be bumped up in capacity to allow more adv fittings...either 3/4 of an adv core, or just full adv cpu and pg values? |
Balamob
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
59
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Posted - 2015.06.20 17:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Isnt the previous BPOs beccome SKINS + The actual BPO?
Assault ak.0, Sentinel ak.0, Scout ak.0.
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RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
845
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Posted - 2015.07.02 01:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
korrah silain wrote:Perhaps once tiercide hits they should be bumped up in capacity to allow more adv fittings...either 3/4 of an adv core, or just full adv cpu and pg values?
Certainly, that is something I would prefer. It makes a better suit to build up to as a new player, and as a vet its not proto but still very versitile.
Most often the BPO gear is all I will use - except for certain EQ, it is just not good enough to be effective for my logi play. So, Apex is what I use most often.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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RedBleach LeSanglant
PIanet Express
Smart Deploy
845
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Posted - 2015.07.02 01:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Balamob wrote:Isnt the previous BPOs beccome SKINS + The actual BPO?
If I remember right: for regular BPO's there will be BPO skins and PERHAPS a BPO powercore. The suit will essentially be free and have all the slots a proto unit would.
The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
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Zan Azikuchi
G.R.A.V.E
The Ditanian Alliance
180
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Posted - 2015.07.03 00:09:00 -
[19] - Quote
RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:Balamob wrote:Isnt the previous BPOs beccome SKINS + The actual BPO? If I remember right: for regular BPO's there will be BPO skins and PERHAPS a BPO powercore. The suit will essentially be free and have all the slots a proto unit would.
Except that all the tiering between basic to proto slot wise will be normalized.
When there is light, shadow's lurk and fear reign's... Yet by the blade of knight's, mankind, was given hope.
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