DUST Search - What if we removed slot tier progression

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RedBleach LeSanglant wrote:

Breakin Stuff wrote:

Vell0cet wrote:

This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like.

You can up the cost of modules at ADV and PRO levels to even out the costs.

this really is a simple fix.

By "easy" I mean Rattati has to condemn some poor asshat to database management hell for god knows how long.

This made me laugh out loud on a pretty tough day, thank you

And I'm in full agreement on the Slot Progression Flattening.

Moving forward it does mean some number adjustments and perhaps some creative tweaks, but overall I like it. Meaning that BPO's that had value in the past, now how do we deal with those, as they are being turned into skins? and Unique suits that don't follow the common racial slot progressions? What happens to the Apex suits to make the suits that were worth 2-3x as much as a regular BPO still worth it?

I guess what i'm saying is for this to move into a reality are there any good ideas? Number tables for that poor database manager? Nomalization between classes and races like the commentary on dropsuit speed that also had some great ideas about how to handle the steps between CPU/PG Tiers.

Good things are happening

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Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1312	Posted - 2015.05.13 22:33:00 - [1] - Quote I've had a lot of fun with my apex suit after the change to allow modifications. It made me realise, after listening to people ask for this forever, that slot tier progression is a bad thing. What I mean exactly by slot tier progression is the number of slots change for a given suit from basic to pro. Removing this would mean basic, adv, and proto all have the same slot layout but have varying cpu/pg capacity. Why is slot tier progression bad imo..? 1) it makes tiers harder to balance for a given suit. 2) it removes versatility and fun for both new players and those who can't afford/don't wanna use the best gear, as well as widening the gap between new bros and vets. 3) following #2, it adds to proto stomping because top players don't want to sacrifice versatility 4) it makes grinding for one proto suit more important than it should be to be competitive (instead a new bro can focus on getting a sweet weapon or pouring sp into upgrades, rather than "oh **** I have to grind out 2.5 mil sp just to field a competitive and versatile suit") 5) in light of the current standard bpo versus apex issue we have now, it makes it possible to create std+ suits (apex) or even adv+, pro+, etc by simply adjusting capacity limits I'm sure there's more reasons that I can't think of right now... If you post good ones I can add them. This is not exactly tiercide as tiers will still exist as defined by cpu and pg limits however I think this is the way to go in the future. I really see no advantage to the slot tier progression as we have it now.
Vell0cet OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3108	Posted - 2015.05.13 22:41:00 - [2] - Quote This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. Best PvE idea ever!
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8721	Posted - 2015.05.13 22:42:00 - [3] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. You can up the cost of modules at ADV and PRO levels to even out the costs. this really is a simple fix. By "easy" I mean Rattati has to condemn some poor asshat to database management hell for god knows how long. There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Scheneighnay McBob And the ButtPirates 6580	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:00:00 - [4] - Quote I agree completely. Make suits progress like vehicles. Some details can be ignored
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1316	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:01:00 - [5] - Quote Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. I think this would be a good thing. Not sure how this game will ever be Cod like though... if anything it makes lower tears more versatile (and less cod like)
Void Echo Helix Order Learning Alliance 2820	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:05:00 - [6] - Quote Boot Booter wrote: Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. I think this would be a good thing. Not sure how this game will ever be Cod like though... if anything it makes lower tears more versatile (and less cod like) It would be cod like for everything to be available to everyone at once, there would be no reason to continue if there isn't something higher than what you have. Just look at tanks, they did go through teircide but it failed epicly. Closed Beta Vet. CEO: Helix Order. I have the controlled anger, more dangerous than you.
Soldner VonKuechle SAM-MIK General Tso's Alliance 2333	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:07:00 - [7] - Quote Void Echo wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. I think this would be a good thing. Not sure how this game will ever be Cod like though... if anything it makes lower tears more versatile (and less cod like) It would be cod like for everything to be available to everyone at once, there would be no reason to continue if there isn't something higher than what you have. Just look at tanks, they did go through teircide but it failed epicly. The silly scaling cost is what hurt tankicide. Better netcoding and plugged memory leaks. Last pieces of the broken puzlzle.
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8722	Posted - 2015.05.13 23:11:00 - [8] - Quote Soldner VonKuechle wrote: Void Echo wrote: Boot Booter wrote: Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. I think this would be a good thing. Not sure how this game will ever be Cod like though... if anything it makes lower tears more versatile (and less cod like) It would be cod like for everything to be available to everyone at once, there would be no reason to continue if there isn't something higher than what you have. Just look at tanks, they did go through teircide but it failed epicly. The silly scaling cost is what hurt tankicide. you mean the love affair with cost multipliers? There's never enough sh**posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1319	Posted - 2015.05.14 02:06:00 - [9] - Quote From my understanding it worked fine for tanks... Obviously there has to be tweaks as usual. Nonetheless I think it this will really improve dropsuit tiers.
Makuta Miserix Nos Nothi 476	Posted - 2015.05.14 02:22:00 - [10] - Quote I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A good portion of the forums are against tiericide for some really stupid reasons. And I really don't see why so many would reasonably think it a bad idea. Why would it be? How does it hurt the game? Better yet, how does it negatively effect the Newb vs. Vet disparity? Because this still exists. Even with the new match-making. Proud supporter of Scouts. Makuta Miserix the Assault/Logi part time Scout. Private Beta Veteran Dust 514/Starhawk

thor424 Namtar Elite Gallente Federation 182	Posted - 2015.05.14 02:44:00 - [11] - Quote Makuta Miserix wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again. A good portion of the forums are against tiericide for some really stupid reasons. And I really don't see why so many would reasonably think it a bad idea. Why would it be? How does it hurt the game? Better yet, how does it negatively effect the Newb vs. Vet disparity? Because this still exists. Even with the new match-making. It's relatively easy to get SP these days. You can earn triple boosters from missions, cap out just one week and nearly get a proto suit. Matchmaking highlighted that we don't have very many new players at all. Tons of SP isn't pushing many vets to play more aggressively at all. That said I very much support removing the slot tiers. I'm not sure what they'd do with non-APEX suit BPOs though. I think this has a two-fold benefit. It puts ISK hoarders in better suits and it puts proto stompers in less effective suits. Both parties are making more ISK and likely playing more aggressively. The biggest benefit is to new players though. Only the dumbest new mercs would fail to learn rather quickly what their skill plan should be until they acquire another APEX type suit. Everyday that player could see their effectiveness on the battlefield increase with the SP they earn for quite a while (until maximizing). Thor's Emporium
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8725	Posted - 2015.05.14 07:47:00 - [12] - Quote Tiers are artificial content used to inflate what is there to make it look like more things are actually in the game. We have quite enough dropsuit classes in the game now that we don't NEED to have three different tiers of the SAME SUIT. The "It will be like CoD" Think is bullsht because it's not available until you put SP into it. Until you max it out the suits will be sub par. Every argument against tiericide has been based on some idiot CoDism or someone flat out saying that its unfair for newbies to be able to compete when they put x million SP into stomping. I have yet to see an argument against tiericide that was not knee-jerk "I hate change." There's never enough sh*posting going on, so let's add a few more teaspoons of the guy posting after me to the recipie!
Regis Blackbird DUST University Ivy League 873	Posted - 2015.05.14 08:11:00 - [13] - Quote I for one supports tiericide. Although, for me Tiericide does not *just* mean no slot progression. It means the basic are very versatile jack of all trades suites, but if you want that extra edge you need to specialise. And by doing so trading away some of that versatility.
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19535	Posted - 2015.05.14 08:14:00 - [14] - Quote https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2773851#post2773851 CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Vicious Minotaur 2344	Posted - 2015.05.14 08:15:00 - [15] - Quote I've heard it said that removing slot progression somehow simplifies the game, dumbs it down, or makes it less deep. But, ultimately, if such a change were to occur, the game is just as deep as it is now at the highest echelon of play. Those in PC or in perpetual proto suits would be unaffected. They play as normal. But, it would also EXPAND the depth to lower echelons. Suddenly, the new (or frugal) player can make better use of CPU/PG mods to either strengthen their tank, their gank, or whatever else. Their suits ultimately become more versatile. Depth is not put behind some SP/time/ISK barrier. These people play with EXPANDED depth. And even then, even if we were to assume that slot progression is depth, and the removal of it removes depth... Does that depth even matter? What about the depth of play created by inter-racial/role infantry warfare? What about the depth provided by infantry and vehicle interaction? I say that depth is all that matters, and it is that depth that should be expanded, with new roles (grenadier? light assault? offensive-based sentinel? dedicated AV role?). The purported depth created by 'slot progression' is a myth. Like that jerkoff, Theseus. I am a minotaur. a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça¦ça+üa+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+¦a+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa+üa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ëa¦ë
Iron Wolf Saber Den of Swords 19535	Posted - 2015.05.14 08:25:00 - [16] - Quote Vicious Minotaur wrote: I've heard it said that removing slot progression somehow simplifies the game, dumbs it down, or makes it less deep. But, ultimately, if such a change were to occur, the game is just as deep as it is now at the highest echelon of play. Those in PC or in perpetual proto suits would be unaffected. They play as normal. But, it would also EXPAND the depth to lower echelons. Suddenly, the new (or frugal) player can make better use of CPU/PG mods to either strengthen their tank, their gank, or whatever else. Their suits ultimately become more versatile. Depth is not put behind some SP/time/ISK barrier. These people play with EXPANDED depth. And even then, even if we were to assume that slot progression is depth, and the removal of it removes depth... Does that depth even matter? What about the depth of play created by inter-racial/role infantry warfare? What about the depth provided by infantry and vehicle interaction? I say that depth is all that matters, and it is that depth that should be expanded, with new roles (grenadier? light assault? offensive-based sentinel? dedicated AV role?). The purported depth created by 'slot progression' is a myth. Like that jerkoff, Theseus. I agree on the the removal of depth being a very flawed argument Ever heard of the notion complexity for complexity's sake? It is absolutely terrible for game design ever. This is what killed FFXIV 1.0 There is NO DEPTH in the current tiers; there is real purpose function or mechanic in tiers that cannot be done far more gracefully without raping a new player out of the game. If you truely want to boil this down. Case in point 1 slot suit nothing special vs a suit 3 or 5 slots also nothing special. Where is the depth? Where is the ingenuity of runnign that one slot suit? Where is the higher intellect in the use of that one suit brought in an environment where the one slot player is slightly better skilled than the 5 slotted one? There is no justification of that system. Give me a reason why anyone would pick the 1 slot suit over the 5 slot suit. Before they open their mouths trying to be the the authoritarian on "Removal of Depth" you would need a more proper example. One such example would be a Type 1 Logistical suits with 3 equipment and side arm and more speed but less tank. Then a Type 2 logistical suit more akin to what we have now with 4 equipment and no side arm slower speed and better hp toughness. Removing both of these to make one logistical type of suits for the whole class would be considered 'removal of depth' No my friend this is removal of power barriers. CPM 1, Secretary Omni-Soldier, Forum Warrior \\= ADV HAVs =// Unlocked
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1327	Posted - 2015.05.14 16:14:00 - [17] - Quote Iron Wolf Saber wrote: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2773851#post2773851 Wow great news, thanks for the link. Super excited now :)
RedBleach LeSanglant Fraternity of St. Venefice Amarr Empire 812	Posted - 2015.05.15 02:00:00 - [18] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. You can up the cost of modules at ADV and PRO levels to even out the costs. this really is a simple fix. By "easy" I mean Rattati has to condemn some poor asshat to database management hell for god knows how long. This made me laugh out loud on a pretty tough day, thank you The Logi Code. Creator, Believer, Follower
Bremen van Equis Incorruptibles 502	Posted - 2015.05.15 02:21:00 - [19] - Quote Lag would get worse. Know how framerate goes to poop when that proto squad comes atcha? More slots on all suits would be disastrous. Buckle up, boysGÇªthis ramp leads to space. -Axe Cop
Breakin Stuff Goonfeet Special Planetary Emergency Response Group 8765	Posted - 2015.05.15 02:48:00 - [20] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: What happens to the Apex suits to make the suits that were worth 2-3x as much as a regular BPO still worth it? Apex suit come with faction prefits. My quafe suits must be loaded with my assets. Right now APEX suits are mostly overpriced starter fits (AUR) or bragging right items (LP variants) WoW has taught me that Purple means Legendary. This means Quafe suits are the optimal loadout for killing all of you.

Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1333	Posted - 2015.05.15 15:23:00 - [21] - Quote Bremen van Equis wrote: Lag would get worse. Know how framerate goes to poop when that proto squad comes atcha? More slots on all suits would be disastrous. I don't think that's true. If you are on to something, it is (was) probably because those proto squads are vets and had a million contacts, 2 million mails, a bunch of chat channels, and a ton of different fittings. Recent updates have worked to remove these factors from causing lags.
Boot Booter Titans of Phoenix RUST415 1333	Posted - 2015.05.15 15:32:00 - [22] - Quote RedBleach LeSanglant wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Vell0cet wrote: This would radically compress the power curve between the tiers. The downside is the cost-to-power ratio would increase dramatically and would really affect the economy. I'm not saying this shouldn't happen, just pointing out that there is a significant trade off. The game would become much more COD-like. You can up the cost of modules at ADV and PRO levels to even out the costs. this really is a simple fix. By "easy" I mean Rattati has to condemn some poor asshat to database management hell for god knows how long. This made me laugh out loud on a pretty tough day, thank you And I'm in full agreement on the Slot Progression Flattening. Moving forward it does mean some number adjustments and perhaps some creative tweaks, but overall I like it. Meaning that BPO's that had value in the past, now how do we deal with those, as they are being turned into skins? and Unique suits that don't follow the common racial slot progressions? What happens to the Apex suits to make the suits that were worth 2-3x as much as a regular BPO still worth it? I guess what i'm saying is for this to move into a reality are there any good ideas? Number tables for that poor database manager? Nomalization between classes and races like the commentary on dropsuit speed that also had some great ideas about how to handle the steps between CPU/PG Tiers. Good things are happening I like both those ideas that you posted, thanks. I think flattening slot progression will help the regular bpos. Those bpos will be still std, while apex will be std with prefitted modules or even std+, meaning it would have slightly greater capacity that std. That power core idea that you put a link to would really help free up some space. This along with skins and a flattened slot progression means we would reduce the number of dropsuit models to a fixed number (32 I believe).


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