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Oswald Rehnquist
1528
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Posted - 2015.05.13 21:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
It is bad.
I honestly don't think people will let up on snipers unless they redo the sniper rifle. Honestly the only argument people have against it is "oh, red line, zero risk, high reward", I don't snipe because its low reward and boring, and very map dependent. I bet you if we cut its range and uped its stability and stopping power people would lose their argument line and still whine all the same.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1529
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Posted - 2015.05.13 23:39:00 -
[2] - Quote
Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:It is bad.
I honestly don't think people will let up on snipers unless they redo the sniper rifle. Honestly the only argument people have against it is "oh, red line, zero risk, high reward", I don't snipe because its low reward and boring, and very map dependent. I bet you if we cut its range and uped its stability and stopping power people would lose their argument line and still whine all the same. I don't think the range should be cut. It's already a sniper rifle with less range than a RL assault rifle. Real sniping is dead, and domination killed it. Nothing we can do about it without turning them into CoD snipers, which would cause Dust players everywhere to storm the CCP offices and kill everyone.
The ScR functions like a high power short range sniper rifle. Its what I use if I want to be a "sniper", clears out shields and you can use a bolt pistol to clean up, its also easier to aim for headshots too, fixing the sniper rifle to be more within the line of the Laser rifle is not a radical suggestion.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1530
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Posted - 2015.05.14 02:38:00 -
[3] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Scheneighnay McBob wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:It is bad.
I honestly don't think people will let up on snipers unless they redo the sniper rifle. Honestly the only argument people have against it is "oh, red line, zero risk, high reward", I don't snipe because its low reward and boring, and very map dependent. I bet you if we cut its range and uped its stability and stopping power people would lose their argument line and still whine all the same. I don't think the range should be cut. It's already a sniper rifle with less range than a RL assault rifle. Real sniping is dead, and domination killed it. Nothing we can do about it without turning them into CoD snipers, which would cause Dust players everywhere to storm the CCP offices and kill everyone. The ScR functions like a high power short range sniper rifle. Its what I use if I want to be a "sniper", clears out shields and you can use a bolt pistol to clean up, its also easier to aim for headshots too, fixing the sniper rifle to be more within the line of the Laser rifle is not a radical suggestion. Or just giving the Laser Rifle a scope and a range buff and making it a really awesome sniper rifle that rewards staying on target instead of maybe kinda/sorta getting lucky with hit detection.
The dumb dumbs won the culture war on the sniper rifle, that's just a fact. Sniping needs a new format, that will yield it less irrational hate. (not even afkers get as much hate)
The rage against the current design of the sniper literally pushes people to tking. That level of hate is severely irrational, so CCP will not touch the SR, help it, or listen to any advice for it, despite the fact that front line rifles are literally thy least skill intensive weapons in the game.
So I'm still partial to my base idea of reduced range and more stopping power and stability.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1534
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Posted - 2015.05.14 19:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I bet you if we cut its range and uped its stability and stopping power people would lose their argument line and still whine all the same. I actually think this would be a dramatic way to improve the sniper role and how it plays out in the game. Even 250 to 300m the sniper rifle would outrange 90% of the weapons on the field while still being far enough away from the fight to encourage tactical play. The extreme ranges of the current sniper rifle tend to encourage bad habits that are further exacerbated by the redline design.
Which is why I support it the change the sniper rifle as that is an easier fix, I also agree with the 250-300 effective range.
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Comparing weapon ranges isn't the problem, it's trying to snipe from any sort of vantage point what so ever. 300m might sound cheeky because you use a shorter range rifle and you want to get back at the sniper but imagine what it's like to try to cover an outside objective from an outpost.
There's not many sniper spots as it is ever since the -last- range nerf and I don't think you guys are considering (rather, I don't think you even care) what it'll be like if there's -another- range nerf.
Correct, but it would help in the role of the "rolling sniper". Essentially instead of an awesome vantage point, you get awesome positioning on your enemy which is effective with the "trench warfare" that frequently occurs. It is absolutely no different than a using the LR. Most of my sniper kills this way were in about the 150-300 range.
Plenty of opportunity to find targets in this manner without being dependent on map vantage points. Its also more fun and dynamic than vantage point sitting. To have the SR designed more around this role would make it even better.
Below 28 dB
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Oswald Rehnquist
1535
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Posted - 2015.05.15 01:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Kain Spero wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:I bet you if we cut its range and uped its stability and stopping power people would lose their argument line and still whine all the same. I actually think this would be a dramatic way to improve the sniper role and how it plays out in the game. Even 250 to 300m the sniper rifle would outrange 90% of the weapons on the field while still being far enough away from the fight to encourage tactical play. The extreme ranges of the current sniper rifle tend to encourage bad habits that are further exacerbated by the redline design. Which is why I support it the change the sniper rifle as that is an easier fix, I also agree with the 250-300 effective range. Aeon Amadi wrote:
Comparing weapon ranges isn't the problem, it's trying to snipe from any sort of vantage point what so ever. 300m might sound cheeky because you use a shorter range rifle and you want to get back at the sniper but imagine what it's like to try to cover an outside objective from an outpost.
There's not many sniper spots as it is ever since the -last- range nerf and I don't think you guys are considering (rather, I don't think you even care) what it'll be like if there's -another- range nerf.
Correct, but it would help in the role of the "rolling sniper". Essentially instead of an awesome vantage point, you get awesome positioning on your enemy which is effective with the "trench warfare" that frequently occurs. It is absolutely no different than a using the LR. Most of my sniper kills this way were in about the 150-300 range. Plenty of opportunity to find targets in this manner without being dependent on map vantage points. Its also more fun and dynamic than vantage point sitting. To have the SR designed more around this role would make it even better. Anecdotal evidence does not facilitate a global change. Glad it works for you. Doesn't work for everyone.
What I said is no more anecdotal than your claim that opportunities cannot arise unless the sniper has massive range due to snipers only working with bird eye view vantage points as inferred from your response to shortening its range for more stopping power and stability.
Currently the SR does not fill the role I suggested particularly well due to low stability/power. If it did "worked" as we were describing it, then we would not be advocating any changes, would we?
So lets not resort to cheap talking points. Clearly we are talking about repurposing the SR, in which case we can argue how we want to repurpose it (and people can disagree with it). The fact that I can give a demonstration in where it could be made stronger is not anecdotal in the slightest, we are talking theoretical here not current mechanics.
The reason for our argument is to bring the SR into the fold within Dust's culture, because as it stands, Dust's player base has zero desire to help the SR at all due to the perceived "zero risk", and is willing to hurt players who participate in the play style. Sniping is currently useless due to this relationship.
So this is what we were trying to rectify.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1535
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Posted - 2015.05.15 03:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
If you think you can get CCP increase the range. I have no arguments against that if you think you can do that. Or if you think you can get CCP to buff the sniper overall while maintaining range, that would be good as that truly would be more opportunities.
That being the case, I honestly don't think anybody would take that suggestion seriously.
Aeon Amadi wrote:with your proposal the only thing that could possibly happen is the -reduction- in potential sniping spots.
Yeah I don't doubt that, you don't design maps for 450+ range sitting spots when you don't have a 450+ range weapon. There aren't even many now but with the shorter range plus more stability and power you'd have more numerous smaller spots to choose from, as it is with the laser rifle, so the SR becomes less map dependent, just like the LR.
Aeon Amadi wrote:No, opportunities -cannot arise- if we -reduce the means by which they could arise-, that much is a solid fact
This is a disingenuous statement. If we solely were advocating just a removal of range, then yes this statement would absolutely be true. But for an increase in stopping power and stability, then new opportunities arise in lieu of the ones loss by range. Clearly if we had a ScR that had 150 effective range and 5000 damage per charge shot, that would offer a lot of (broken) opportunity. So clearly there is a power / range scale. Our argument is to slide that scale in proportion to whats given up.
Aeon Amadi wrote:How do I know? Because that's exactly what happened the last time the range was reduced.
Again, your basing your argument off a complete nerf vs a trade off which we are suggesting. When something is nerfed absolutely, it will absolutely decrease in utility. Results will vary if you buff one aspect but nerf another. While you may disagree with the suggestion, your example of how you know is comparing apples to oranges.
And just for the record, I enjoyed the game as a non sniper before the sniper nerf. About half the team were snipers, but that was more interesting than what we currently have where 90% of the team uses a front line rifle. You had to take cover more and it made battles interesting as a shotgunner at the time (before the sp reset). So your ideal for more range is not what I'm against specifically.
My main critique is one of practically with achieving a SR buff without some take away. If you think you get CCP moving without anything being giving up then that's great. I just don't think its going to happen without something to get people to back off of a SR buff.
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Oswald Rehnquist
1536
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Posted - 2015.05.15 05:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Oswald Rehnquist wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:How do I know? Because that's exactly what happened the last time the range was reduced. Again, your basing your argument off a complete nerf vs a trade off which we are suggesting. When something is nerfed absolutely, it will absolutely decrease in utility. Results will vary if you buff one aspect but nerf another. While you may disagree with the suggestion, your example of how you know is comparing apples to oranges. And just for the record, I enjoyed the game as a non sniper before the sniper nerf. About half the team were snipers, but that was more interesting than what we currently have where 90% of the team uses a front line rifle. You had to take cover more and it made battles interesting as a shotgunner at the time (before the sp reset). So your ideal for more range is not what I'm against specifically. My main critique is one of practically with achieving a SR buff without some take away. If you think you get CCP moving without anything being giving up then that's great. I just don't think its going to happen without something to get people to back off of a SR buff. There was a trade-off. Less range for higher headshot damage, new reticles, etc. That didn't make the situation any better it just knocked out a lot of would-be snipers who were trying it out to see if it was worth using (pro-tip, it's not). Sniper Rifles are like Scouts suits, they're absolutely worthless early on and the higher in progression you get the more viable they are until you get to the Thale's which was OP because of a scope (lol, I still think that notion is hilarious). The sniper rifle needs to act like a sniper rifle. It needs to hit reliably (something it doesn't because hit detection gets reaaaal screwy past a certain range), it needs to hit hard, and it needs to hit from far away. Nerfing the range for -any- kind of trade-off is going to reduce the usability of the weapon because it just way too freaggin hard to use as it is. The only way I'd -ever- except -yet another- range nerf is if you don't have scope sway from standing up, maybe even while moving. A "rolling sniper" needs to be mobile and that's nigh impossible when you have to find an area with which you can get a clear shot off with relative safety because as much as the community would ***** that it's low risk, it's anything but when you have to rely on a sidearm to defend yourself and very rarely ever have first shot. Further more, you can't be a "rolling sniper" when you're constantly having to fiddle with the sway while standing and having to wait for it to go away while crouching, leaving you a sitting duck. IF the community wants a mobile sniper, I'm all for it, but they better be -MOBILE-
We are in agreement then, a traditional sniper makes the most sense, is awesome to have, but the community for whatever reason will not let this role exist in Dust. I enjoyed having to counter it, most apparently do not. Truth be told any real shooter should have the traditional perch sniper as well as a rolling sniper as two different weapons. The fact that dust doesn't have either one of those roles as effective playstyles is just plain sad. Again the goal was just to neuter the communities backlash should the SR conversation ever gets picked up by a dev. I'd take any way to make the sniper effective and more common place, I'm just betting on lower resistance to the rolling sniper proposal than the perch sniper.
Below 28 dB
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