I never knew I was paying to win with LP and ISK.

Militia junk is a small problem. It's bad equipment and will result in the players doing poorly against good players. So there is a faucet effect, but its minimal -- especially when competent matchmaking filters out these bad players.

With APEX the situation is different. Good players can abuse many APEX suits and do incredibly well. This gives it a large faucet effect.

An unchecked faucet is highly damaging to economy. In a game where all you are doing is buying from an NPC market, this can be forgiven. However that is not Dusts stated design. It's not supposed to be that way, and with every update we move further away from that. The concept of APEX is poisonous to the direction the game is heading.

It is also poisonous to the concept of schadenfreude, which is supposed to be the defining meta of Dust as well as EVE. The game was supposed to get an ISK destruction stat to make people feel good every time they secure a kill. It's one of the reasons the devs originally took the BPO's out of the game in the first place, despite all of the complaints to Sony that happened afterwards. They recognized it was a necessary step to forging the proper public metagame, as well as economy.

Rattati effectively reversed their efforts and made that fallout from that decision be entirely in vain. He did this because the team was scrambling to find something -- anything -- that would sell. They were that close to getting the lights turned off and Dust shut down. More methods of monetization have come since, and its no longer necessary for APEX to exist.


Ergo, APEX is trash and should be removed from the game. If that isn't possible, then its use needs to be tied to a resource that can deplete. Something that can be tied in ISK in some manner, and can be measured when it is destroyed.

You paid something more important than any amount of money in the world: time.

I've got the FW APEX. It's a money maker.

It's also completely broken because it ruins the entire concept of risk vs reward which is the most important pillar of new eden.

Still the worst thing to ever happen to this game. This simply made it a little more worse.

Militia junk is a small problem. It's bad equipment and will result in the players doing poorly against good players. So there is a faucet effect, but its minimal -- especially when competent matchmaking filters out these bad players.

With APEX the situation is different. Good players can abuse many APEX suits and do incredibly well. This gives it a large faucet effect.

An unchecked faucet is highly damaging to economy. In a game where all you are doing is buying from an NPC market, this can be forgiven. However that is not Dusts stated design. It's not supposed to be that way, and with every update we move further away from that. The concept of APEX is poisonous to the direction the game is heading.

It is also poisonous to the concept of schadenfreude, which is supposed to be the defining meta of Dust as well as EVE. The game was supposed to get an ISK destruction stat to make people feel good every time they secure a kill. It's one of the reasons the devs originally took the BPO's out of the game in the first place, despite all of the complaints to Sony that happened afterwards. They recognized it was a necessary step to forging the proper public metagame, as well as economy.

Rattati effectively reversed their efforts and made that fallout from that decision be entirely in vain. He did this because the team was scrambling to find something -- anything -- that would sell. They were that close to getting the lights turned off and Dust shut down. More methods of monetization have come since, and its no longer necessary for APEX to exist.


Ergo, APEX is trash and should be removed from the game. If that isn't possible, then its use needs to be tied to a resource that can deplete. Something that can be tied in ISK in some manner, and can be measured when it is destroyed.

I barely have 150 mil and I cant remember a time where any of my 3 accounts had to think about risk vs reward? Perhaps 10% of the dust populus is playing that imaginary game you speak of.

Militia junk is a small problem. It's bad equipment and will result in the players doing poorly against good players. So there is a faucet effect, but its minimal -- especially when competent matchmaking filters out these bad players.

With APEX the situation is different. Good players can abuse many APEX suits and do incredibly well. This gives it a large faucet effect.

An unchecked faucet is highly damaging to economy. In a game where all you are doing is buying from an NPC market, this can be forgiven. However that is not Dusts stated design. It's not supposed to be that way, and with every update we move further away from that. The concept of APEX is poisonous to the direction the game is heading.

It is also poisonous to the concept of schadenfreude, which is supposed to be the defining meta of Dust as well as EVE. The game was supposed to get an ISK destruction stat to make people feel good every time they secure a kill. It's one of the reasons the devs originally took the BPO's out of the game in the first place, despite all of the complaints to Sony that happened afterwards. They recognized it was a necessary step to forging the proper public metagame, as well as economy.

Rattati effectively reversed their efforts and made that fallout from that decision be entirely in vain. He did this because the team was scrambling to find something -- anything -- that would sell. They were that close to getting the lights turned off and Dust shut down. More methods of monetization have come since, and its no longer necessary for APEX to exist.


Ergo, APEX is trash and should be removed from the game. If that isn't possible, then its use needs to be tied to a resource that can deplete. Something that can be tied in ISK in some manner, and can be measured when it is destroyed.

I disagree with pretty much everything you have said.

That being said, my APEX calsent costs 50,000 ISK per death and STILL does not compete with an equally skilled opponent in full proto.

The point you and adipem are missing is that the APEX represent an opportunity to butcher suit tiers entirely and free up some database memory. Take the suits and make them all identical. Make PG/CPU go up with each level In the suit skill. Make the BPC suits cost 5k a pop.

Then take the weapons and modules and increase the average cost of ADV by 10%. Increase PRO by 20-30%.


If this happens then the suit only matters based on class, like hull type is the metric for EVE. The only difference here would be the cost of standardized suits would primarily be tied into the modules and weapons.

This also opens the door for high-performance LP and experimental suits that bridge the gap between officer and prototype. It opens up the potential of post-5 content slightly more, which could be where pirate suits become critical.

I think APEX need to be looked at as an experiment, and a pathway to streamlining the game. There's a certain satisfaction in schadenfreude but in low grade pubs it adds nothing to the game. In FW freefits are only competitive against idiots and if you drop. An APEX suit in PC without a damn good reason your corpmates would likely murder you themselves.

DUST needs a lot more added before removing the "eternal freefit" aspect. The game lacks a release valve which allows new players to find fortune unless they find a corp full of people who will carry them. It's not feasible for anyone to fulfill your desire for schadenfreude besides the few players who have more ISK than sense. When a match payout stops being a net loss if I die five times in an advanced fit with no STD/BPO mods or guns then I will do so.

But it's not profitable, nor is it fun to see your wallet continually taking a loss. Most of the people who quit (who last longer than the first week) in my experience do so because of either the controls and graphical glitching or because it is rapidly apparent that running anything better than a high-skill sh*tfit will ALWAYS be a net loss. Without exception.

In EVE you can profit well from risking your assets. In fact there are more opportunities to profit than there are risks if you play right.

In DUST the reverse is true. There is no profitable activity. The only way to really profit was to farm failfit matches or to enjoy PC bugs.

Once the ability to turn a profit so we can in turn indulge in our horrible terroristic desire to ruin each others' days has been added then we should ABSOLUTELY look at the role of the BPO. Perhaps give players the option to turn them into a manufacturing blueprint with significant initial research levels preloaded.

But without it, All DUST represents to most players is frustration and a feeling of futility rather than opportunity.

As long as the opportunity is lacking, APEX and BPOs provide a release valve that players need.

Is this a step towards ccp z progression?

BTW, those tiger scout colors... i could go on stage with these guy's:


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Gs069dndIYk

Groovy....

I disagree with pretty much everything you have said.

That being said, my APEX calsent costs 50,000 ISK per death and STILL does not compete with an equally skilled opponent in full proto.

The point you and adipem are missing is that the APEX represent an opportunity to butcher suit tiers entirely and free up some database memory. Take the suits and make them all identical. Make PG/CPU go up with each level In the suit skill. Make the BPC suits cost 5k a pop.

Then take the weapons and modules and increase the average cost of ADV by 10%. Increase PRO by 20-30%.


If this happens then the suit only matters based on class, like hull type is the metric for EVE. The only difference here would be the cost of standardized suits would primarily be tied into the modules and weapons.

This also opens the door for high-performance LP and experimental suits that bridge the gap between officer and prototype. It opens up the potential of post-5 content slightly more, which could be where pirate suits become critical.

I think APEX need to be looked at as an experiment, and a pathway to streamlining the game. There's a certain satisfaction in schadenfreude but in low grade pubs it adds nothing to the game. In FW freefits are only competitive against idiots and if you drop. An APEX suit in PC without a damn good reason your corpmates would likely murder you themselves.

DUST needs a lot more added before removing the "eternal freefit" aspect. The game lacks a release valve which allows new players to find fortune unless they find a corp full of people who will carry them. It's not feasible for anyone to fulfill your desire for schadenfreude besides the few players who have more ISK than sense. When a match payout stops being a net loss if I die five times in an advanced fit with no STD/BPO mods or guns then I will do so.

But it's not profitable, nor is it fun to see your wallet continually taking a loss. Most of the people who quit (who last longer than the first week) in my experience do so because of either the controls and graphical glitching or because it is rapidly apparent that running anything better than a high-skill sh*tfit will ALWAYS be a net loss. Without exception.

In EVE you can profit well from risking your assets. In fact there are more opportunities to profit than there are risks if you play right.

In DUST the reverse is true. There is no profitable activity. The only way to really profit was to farm failfit matches or to enjoy PC bugs.

Once the ability to turn a profit so we can in turn indulge in our horrible terroristic desire to ruin each others' days has been added then we should ABSOLUTELY look at the role of the BPO. Perhaps give players the option to turn them into a manufacturing blueprint with significant initial research levels preloaded.

But without it, All DUST represents to most players is frustration and a feeling of futility rather than opportunity.

As long as the opportunity is lacking, APEX and BPOs provide a release valve that players need.

these complaints show who is unwilling to put in the work or the $$$ to get apex

Your logic is akin to stuffing people through chemotherapy when a legitimate cure to cancer is actually attainable.

I cannot agree to the justification of self prescribed poison when solutions have been present to a lack of opportunity the entire time. The largest problem, matchmaking, is a skipping stone away from being in a very good place once match abandonment is properly punished.

what does it matter people have the right to make what they want sorry if your not smart enough or have enough sp to do that

garbage.

You'll never fix match-making by punishing players that leave, only by encouraging them to stay. Just the same as AFKing was never punished by having mandatory minimums - it just made legitimate players who get screwed over by the system more frustrated.

You'll never fix match-making by punishing players that leave, only by encouraging them to stay. Just the same as AFKing was never punished by having mandatory minimums - it just made legitimate players who get screwed over by the system more frustrated.

what does it matter people have the right to make what they want sorry if your not smart enough or have enough sp to do that

Why the hell would I debate anything on the internet? Who ever concedes in an internet argument? Lol.

Punishing people is a far more effective form of control than allowing them endless reward for exploitable work.

And above all else, they deserve punishment. People should always get what they deserve.

Cut off a hand when someone steals, people won't be crowding your prison system for very long.

Cut off a hand when someone steals, people won't be crowding your prison system for very long.

No, I only come on here to tell people why they are wrong so they can stew over their mistakes in bitter silence.