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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
645
   |
Posted - 2015.05.02 05:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cook for two seconds, instant or near kill. Things do way too much damage for the ability to simply cook and collect bacon over a 7.2m radius. To be clear, the effective range of this thing is larger then than of the Shotgun's optimal range. For 720 damage to armor you effectively negate the entire defense of most suits just by holding down the button for a few seconds.
IMO, grenade shouldn't be the first thing you resort to when in an engagement. Softening targets is one thing but killing multiple targets outright is a little ridiculous. For such a low-skill weapon, it's power needs to be scaled down rather dramatically. It's not like placing a well-aimed PLC shot or Forge-gun round (who's splash damage is lower, still) and I'd even argue that placing Mass Driver rounds on target takes more skill than just holding down the button and vaguely facing the enemy's direction.
Proposal (any number of these will work):
- Nerf the damage so that it's used as a proper splash damage weapon and not a way to cop-out of the shooter game.
- Remove it from the Nanohives' restock capability; you should only be able to get them from supply depots.
- Increase the PG/CPU so it has the costs of a primary weapon, since it basically is at this point.
(Do me a solid and don't bring up the Flux Grenade. That's for a different thread.)
Grenades require a sacrifice of time, and take timing to pull off correctly, in addition the enemy can hear you pull the pin, which allows them to run into your face or run for cover, both of which can end up costing you a grenade. Characterizing them as a no skill weapon is not really helpful, especially since they easily take more skill than any weapon in dust aside from maybe long range mass driver kills.
I would maybe agree with your second and third suggestions though, as it is very easy to have games that entirely revolve around remote/core grenade spam to steamroll your team (hi ambush explosive steamroller squads!) |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
645
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 05:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Banjo Robertson wrote:Iron Wolf Saber wrote:I think we should flatten grenade damage and cook-times and have blast radius as the meta gain. That could work, or make the splash radius the same across all tiers and only change the damage. As the damage on the core wouldn't be so bad if it also didn't have such a huge radius. Or make damage and blast radius flat across all tiers and only change the number of grenades you carry by tier. IMHO, flatten blast radius and cook time and have damage be what increases. However, I find it amusing that people are complaining about grenades doing less than half the damage of REs when REs can't be thrown even half as far as grenades. Grenades are fine, buff REs.
And you cant have grenades sit in a doorway until someone comes along, and choose the exact moment to set them off. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
645
|
Posted - 2015.05.02 19:32:00 -
[3] - Quote
Stefan Stahl wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I like normalizing damage and increasing radius with tiers. I also disagree with that we didn't know grenades use would go up, that was the intent, grenades were UP and are currently not a problem. This doesn't have to be an open forum discussion, but do you have a concept on how grenades are supposed to be used? Right now it works like this: - Standard locus grenades should never be used. - Advanced locus grenades can be used to stop somebody from going somewhere or forcing people out of cover. - Prototype locus grenades are as good at killing stuff as your primary weapon. Choose based on range. I very much dislike that the mechanic changes based on the tier. If you're new to the game you will quickly learn that locus grenades are mostly useless compared to your primary weapon. As you progress grenades become ever more important. Eventually lobbing core grenades at stuff is as important as shooting stuff. If the design direction is "Locus grenades OHK single enemies" then we can find numbers for that. If the design direction is "Locus grenades deal minor damage to many enemies" we can find number for that. Etc. Etc. This discussion is unlikely to find a solution as long as everyone projects a different design philosophy into the locus grenades. I have a preference (see last post) but we can make any design work - once we are settled on a certain design.
I agree with this, when I was new to this game I had alot of trouble making grenades work, so I just ignored them for a year or two. I was terrible with grenades for a long time, just because I never bothered using them, I would slot in AV to make vehicles run away or flux just to toss on uplinks, never use normal grenades because they sucked.
Eventually I got to the point where I had so many skill points I just went ahead and skilled up grenades, tried out the core grenade, and said to myself OH, WOW, so this is why people use these. The STD level grenades really are absolutely terrible. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
652
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 18:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
Alena Ventrallis wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I like normalizing damage and increasing radius with tiers. I also disagree with that we didn't know grenades use would go up, that was the intent, grenades were UP and are currently not a problem. Don't run blindly around a corner. RE's will be getting a throwing distance nerf in the next hotfix as they were meant as traps more than grenades. I think we should normalize splash and have damage increase on a smaller curve. Splash radius: 6m STD: 400 dmg ADV: 450 dmg PRO: 500 dmg PRo is still better, but not god-tier better.
I like this idea, also thukkers need a bit of a radius increase, they are worthless. |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
652
|
Posted - 2015.05.04 18:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:CommanderBolt wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:KILL3R H3LLH0UND wrote:OR.... do what they did in battlefield 4... yount cook a nade. you hit r2 and you have 0.4 sec to pull the pin and throw it. Amen. In Battlefield, grenades are used to flush people out of spots they are sitting in. Grenade comes in, they have a choice. Try and eat the grenade and hope they live, or leave cover. Most people choose the second, and have to try to run through enemy fire. I like it this way. You can't just go "Oh, he's right behind there. Say hello to my pocket grenade launcher", and then chuck a cooked nade on his head. Buff contact nades, and then remove cooking on the other ones. You want instant explosion? Use a contact; you have very high damage and have severely reduced splash radius. You want to flush people out? Use a normal nade;You can't cook, but you have high damage and range. Then we can buff the sleek nade and give them HUGE range but very low splash damage. Think of them as equipment killers, toss very far onto roofs and watch the EQ pop. This goes for fluxes too. Contact fluxes would be really cool to see. Imagine a super high damage flux nade that explodes on contact. Great for Cal Heavies or Tanks (Still has VERY small radius). Just my thoughts on the matter. So is this why game developers tend not to let people cook nades in their games any more? (Because of easy mode abuseage) because I have always liked how this game lets you cook grenades but you do have a point.... I'm not sure if thats what the developers though, but it made sense to me. Noob tubes were used in BF2 to kill people in cover (when it was indestructible), as the splash would hit them through it. Grenades couldn't be cooked, but everyone had access to them. Most people dealt with people in cover by tossing a grenade and pre-firing where they would be running out. Assaults didn't have to. They could just launch a noob tube at the dude. Call em the wrecking balls. Cooking greandes allow grenades to trespass onto noob tube territory. If made too strong, why carry one? Everyone know has a pocket grenade launcher. Speaking of which, I want my underslung weapon system. I would kill for an underslung shotgun or launcher in Dust. With varible damage profiles. EMP launcher on a combat rifle. I'm drooling at the thought.
Me and two friends used to run a noob tube assembly line in BF2, just roll up to a position, one guy dropping medpacks and reviving if someone died, other guy dumping out ammo constantly, and me just noob tubing anyone who showed their faces. Was so fun (until they rightly nerfed the noob tube so it had a time delay before contact would explode the grenade). |
Vesta Opalus
Ostrakon Agency
Gallente Federation
656
|
Posted - 2015.05.05 17:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Alena Ventrallis wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:I like normalizing damage and increasing radius with tiers. I also disagree with that we didn't know grenades use would go up, that was the intent, grenades were UP and are currently not a problem. Don't run blindly around a corner. RE's will be getting a throwing distance nerf in the next hotfix as they were meant as traps more than grenades. I think we should normalize splash and have damage increase on a smaller curve. Splash radius: 6m STD: 400 dmg ADV: 450 dmg PRO: 500 dmg PRo is still better, but not god-tier better. I like this idea, also thukkers need a bit of a radius increase, they are worthless. Increments of 50 DMG won't justify the expense or resource req'ts of running prototype grenades. If the goal is to normalize progressions, I'd recommend 400/500/600 (from 300/400/600). In my opinion, HP levels are simply too high to justify a nerf to damage output. When a newbro cooks, tosses and explodes an anti-personnel grenade a foot from your face, it needs to hurt. If it doesn't hurt, it breaks immersion. If we're tuning blast radii, I agree that Thukker (2.5m) is too tight as is M8 packed locus (3.3m).
I agree with you with the exception of the HP levels are too high to justify a nerf to damage output comment, I think HP levels are too high ON BRICKED SUITS and brick tanking needs to be nerfed via module caps or diminishing returns on HP modules. 600 damage already wrecks my x3 shield extender fits, and shields are supposed to be good against explosives, how many HP modules do I need to throw on my suits to not get one shotted by a grenade?
I think 500 at proto is fine, the problem we can agree on is that HP is POTENTIALLY too high for that, however I dont think the answer is to keep grenades at 600, because that hurts non-HP stacked fittings, which just reinforces the high HP values we generally see and ensures the HP meta (which is ******* boring in my opinion) will continue. |
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