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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1972
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Posted - 2015.05.02 02:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:Cook for two seconds, instant or near kill. Things do way too much damage for the ability to simply cook and collect bacon over a 7.2m radius. To be clear, the effective range of this thing is larger then than of the Shotgun's optimal range. For 720 damage to armor you effectively negate the entire defense of most suits just by holding down the button for a few seconds.
IMO, grenade shouldn't be the first thing you resort to when in an engagement. Softening targets is one thing but killing multiple targets outright is a little ridiculous. For such a low-skill weapon, it's power needs to be scaled down rather dramatically. It's not like placing a well-aimed PLC shot or Forge-gun round (who's splash damage is lower, still) and I'd even argue that placing Mass Driver rounds on target takes more skill than just holding down the button and vaguely facing the enemy's direction.
Proposal (any number of these will work):
- Nerf the damage so that it's used as a proper splash damage weapon and not a way to cop-out of the shooter game.
- Remove it from the Nanohives' restock capability; you should only be able to get them from supply depots.
- Increase the PG/CPU so it has the costs of a primary weapon, since it basically is at this point.
(Do me a solid and don't bring up the Flux Grenade. That's for a different thread.)
Cooked nades are powerful, yes, maybe too powerful.
But it is dead wrong to say they are a low skill weapon.
Saying that means that the saying person is distorting the facts to their cause.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1972
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Posted - 2015.05.02 02:37:00 -
[2] - Quote
Himiko Kuronaga wrote:Aeon Amadi wrote:Cook for two seconds, instant or near kill. Things do way too much damage for the ability to simply cook and collect bacon over a 7.2m radius. To be clear, the effective range of this thing is larger then than of the Shotgun's optimal range. For 720 damage to armor you effectively negate the entire defense of most suits just by holding down the button for a few seconds.
IMO, grenade shouldn't be the first thing you resort to when in an engagement. Softening targets is one thing but killing multiple targets outright is a little ridiculous. For such a low-skill weapon, it's power needs to be scaled down rather dramatically. It's not like placing a well-aimed PLC shot or Forge-gun round (who's splash damage is lower, still) and I'd even argue that placing Mass Driver rounds on target takes more skill than just holding down the button and vaguely facing the enemy's direction.
Proposal (any number of these will work):
- Nerf the damage so that it's used as a proper splash damage weapon and not a way to cop-out of the shooter game.
- Remove it from the Nanohives' restock capability; you should only be able to get them from supply depots.
- Increase the PG/CPU so it has the costs of a primary weapon, since it basically is at this point.
(Do me a solid and don't bring up the Flux Grenade. That's for a different thread.) Cores were fine. Then Rattati buffed nanohives and they became abusable. Everyone saw it coming, no one said anything.
I beg your pardon...?!?!?
Some stuff said: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2661722#post2661722
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1972
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Posted - 2015.05.02 02:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Echo 1991 wrote:Lightning35 Delta514 wrote:
I once complained about op pro tanks and I will tell you what one person posted but for the pro nade. The pro nade need more skill point to use. Normally it takes like 350.000 sp to skill to pro weapons. The pro nades take 650.000. It is good just as it is. Not to mention its 14.000 ISk per nade, compared to the 600 for std NADES.
Just because they cost more doent mean they should be so much better than adv and std. Yes they should be good but not to the point where the other 2 are pointless to use.
^ THIS is the very essence of good game design!
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1973
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Posted - 2015.05.02 02:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I like normalizing damage and increasing radius with tiers. I also disagree with that we didn't know grenades use would go up, that was the intent, grenades were UP and are currently not a problem. Don't run blindly around a corner. RE's will be getting a throwing distance nerf in the next hotfix as they were meant as traps more than grenades.
I disagree on some of those points =P
Nades haven't been UP pretty much never.
They should be powerful, no changes required except some sort of tiericide or rather tiertunedown.
The original poster is correct that cooked nades are very very good and able to OHK many suits - according to my experience nades do have headshot ability even though there's no message. How else 720+ HP suit could be OHK'd??
Different topic but I gotta mention as early as possible: REs do not need throw distance nerf, they need activation timer nerf (or rather to make sure the announced 5+ s timer would work as listed on the fall of 2014)
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1975
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Posted - 2015.05.02 21:29:00 -
[5] - Quote
Demandred Moores wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
The original poster is correct that cooked nades are very very good and able to OHK many suits - according to my experience nades do have headshot ability even though there's no message. How else 720+ HP suit could be OHK'd??
Different topic but I gotta mention as early as possible: REs do not need throw distance nerf, they need activation timer nerf (or rather to make sure the announced 5+ s timer would work as listed on the fall of 2014)
They don't have a head shot bonus or it would always kill you cause of the blast radius lol. They do more to armour less to shields what you are seeing is the armour tanked suit getting nuked because he wasn't aware of the situation. this is a prime example of how ppl that don't understand the game come on the forums and try to complain while the vast majority enjoy the game and remain silent. Why should a flux take all of a calidari's shield and leave him with effectively no hp and a core not do massive armour damage? Run more shields it will eat so much of the grenades damage you would be surprised. They are not op you just haven't adapted to a play style you don't like. Basic flux is more op than a core. And don't tell me they don't kill so they aren't I run almost every suit at proto and max vehicles. Flux might as well kill a calidari and doubles as an AV weapon. Try to core spam me and see how op you are my friend. I will melt you.
No understanding of game mechanics?
Challenge accepted.
No game has explosive radius calculated in infinite detail.
It is always
A) more or less calculated through limited number of radial lines.
because of that, ground explosions hits with less lines the top area, where the headshot are.
B) 'simple' 3D trigonometrical distance line calculated between two tracked objects. Then again, ground level line is unlikely to touch the headshot area.
In both cases, airbursts are more likely to hit head.
If there is a method C) please go ahead and enlighten us.
I am not saying I - or anyone else non-dev - have the real knowledge of the code within Dust.
There is a possibility for other explanations for the damage above the listed. Damage profile is a very good candidate - but shield tanked suits can be instagibd with cores.
I am not saying Core Locus Nades are OP.
I am saying they are very very good.
I am saying the nanohive #-buff increased the usage of nades.
Good nade use is powerful yet skill intensive. personally majority of my Four-ish kdr is from nades (after the AA implementation of 2013).
PS: Flux is inadequate for AV. As an experienced shield HAV operator, fluxes are laughable as their effect diminishes with range: it is just "bonk" and then one third of the fluxes listed damage.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1976
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Posted - 2015.05.03 01:03:00 -
[6] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
That'd be fine, but 600 damage over 7.2m is just insane for something that can be replenished by nanohives. I'd even argue that they're more so a problem because of the ability to replenish them with nanohives whereas the Remote Explosives cannot be replenished, save for respawning or going to a supply depot.
Even though I agree mostly with you, Aeon, I have to correct a bit:
- damage diminishes the further you get from the center of blast, until it barely scratches
- dust meters are... well, most likely feet.
- giving an explosive weapon a blast radius buff is also a form of damage buff, as the damage around gets higher and the area gets exponentially higher (a comment for your ok sleek+packed nade suggestion)
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1980
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Posted - 2015.05.03 15:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:The only nerf geenades ever needed was the removal of the ability to replenish them with a nanohive.
Or rather make sure the resupply rate - the time - gets increased (nerfed).
20s standing on a hive is an eternity. That would also make sure everyone would get primary ammo before the logibro's hive is being gulped by nades.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1987
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Posted - 2015.05.05 11:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Adipem Nothi wrote:
Increments of 50 DMG won't justify the expense or resource req'ts of running prototype grenades. If the goal is to normalize progressions, I'd recommend 400/500/600 (from 300/400/600).
In my opinion, HP levels are simply too high to justify a nerf to damage output. When a newbro cooks, tosses and explodes an anti-personnel grenade a foot from your face, it needs to hurt. If it doesn't hurt, it breaks immersion.
If we're tuning blast radii, I agree that Thukker (2.5m) is too tight as is M8 packed locus (3.3m).
Remember, upping the range effectively increases actual damage.
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1987
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Posted - 2015.05.05 11:58:00 -
[9] - Quote
Okay, I uploaded video that touches the subject.
Dust 514: Pub#249 L Camping the depot, tight logitrain
Following points can be seen there:
- nade resupply is too easy (best fix still the resupply rate/speed)
- nade spamming is possible due to above
- cooking is powerful
- cooking requires dexterity and some planning
- nades work against blobs and can be used to kill logitrains
(
A longish video, but it is non-stop action straight from the beginning! Explosions everywhere.
I was primarying as a rep logi (rare thing for me as I usually suck at it) but somehow I ended up with top kills.
Well not somehow, 90% or so kills were nade kills... =P
)
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1987
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Posted - 2015.05.05 12:01:00 -
[10] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:KEROSIINI-TERO wrote:
Remember, upping the range effectively increases actual damage.
the problem is if we drop nade damage again we wind up with worthless nades. Again.
By no means I'm advocating damage drop, just pointed out to the gent there that range is more than just the range where nades can touch people.
(lol reminded me of "aaawww show me on the doll where the bad grenade touched you"  )
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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KEROSIINI-TERO
The Rainbow Effect
1995
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Posted - 2015.05.05 23:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dat M6 indeed, luckily he has not seen this video, he would BURST with self-endulgence, the d-wad. 
Looking at both sides of the coin.
Even Aurum one.
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