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[Veteran_Traynor Youngs]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 05:35:00 -
[61] - Quote
I can tell you right now why jump/strafe is stupid.
People in the military who have been shot at, NEVER DO IT.
So a game that is supposed to be a combat sim FPS kind of game should try to minimize it.
I know from experience that shooting while running orthogonal to your target (strafing) is very very hard to do.
IN real life you either A: go slower or B: hit a lot less often.
So I recommend that CCP implement some kind of hit to accuracy and speed while strafing. You should be able to recoup the accuracy by kneeling, and recoup the speed by sprinting. Firing from the hip while strafing should be barely effective, and aiming in should slow you down and get back some of the accuracy.
I like the OPs ideas. they make sense. |
[Veteran_Futura Nerevar]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 06:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
Traynor Youngs wrote:People in the military who have been shot at, NEVER DO IT.
Dude, nobody cares. Companies usually make games in the interest of fun, not to emulate realism.
Just from skimming over the thread, people on OP's side would probably like KZ2. Not that I have a problem with it, but I really don't think that's the direction that CCP is going for. From the OP's suggestion just sounds like it'd devoid this game of any skill curve during firefights. I wasn't really looking for a first person RTS when I started getting hyped for this game. |
[Veteran_Spazzeh BHD]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 07:24:00 -
[63] - Quote
well, fix the problem where the enemy just eats your bullets without taking damage or fix the strafing. |
[Veteran_Heinikikin]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 08:16:00 -
[64] - Quote
People here are getting pigeonholed into nerf/dontnerf.
All we need is a comparable counter and a counter to the counter available to different playstyles in equal measure and in a likewise manner.
edit- the counter being a mechanic that takes some particular skill on behalf of its user to use. I.e, a thinking brain. |
[Veteran_Duster Boskonovitch]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 08:54:00 -
[65] - Quote
EVE has lock on , you cant fire untill you lock on , you want lock on in Dust? |
[Veteran_Mars El'Theran]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 09:05:00 -
[66] - Quote
John Surratt wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Strafing is the spirit of EVE. Its all about keeping your transversal velocity high. lol Also, EVE is a spaceship game where ships have a top speed in null grav (instead of real Newtonian physics), always re-orientate to level with "up" & "down", the planets/stations don't actually move, there are non existent metals that supposedly explode in atmosphere (tritanium, really?) except that ships that hold air are made out of them. . .and drugs are made from gas that is found in space instead of coca leaves from Colombia. I want to be able to sig tank in DUST. Also waiting for my DUST version of hotdropo'clock.
Why does everybody think that you can accelerate endlessly just because there is 0-Gravity and no resistance? Not true. Your speed is limited by the thrust provided by your engines and acceleration is limited by the mass of your ship. Once you've moved beyond acceleration against mass in space, you have achieved top speed.
That is, provided you aren't being affected by other forces such as the gravity of a Neutron star, Sun, planetary body, particles of matter, various other things, etc.. because Space isn't really empty. |
[Veteran_Mars El'Theran]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 09:09:00 -
[67] - Quote
Traynor Youngs wrote:I can tell you right now why jump/strafe is stupid.
People in the military who have been shot at, NEVER DO IT.
So a game that is supposed to be a combat sim FPS kind of game should try to minimize it.
I know from experience that shooting while running orthogonal to your target (strafing) is very very hard to do.
IN real life you either A: go slower or B: hit a lot less often.
So I recommend that CCP implement some kind of hit to accuracy and speed while strafing. You should be able to recoup the accuracy by kneeling, and recoup the speed by sprinting. Firing from the hip while strafing should be barely effective, and aiming in should slow you down and get back some of the accuracy.
I like the OPs ideas. they make sense.
eh.. you're not running; you're just walking fast, and you can shoot just fine while doing that. I can shoot at a full sprint and dance my way over and around obstacles at the same time if I want, and I can do it with a bow rather than a gun too, and still hit my target.
I can't bunny hop while turning in a circle firing a gun bouncing sideways spinning dizzy spins of bunny madness however.
edit, I like your idea of recouping accuracy though. There is a loss to accuracy expected while you are doing any movement while shooting short of a slow, steady walk. Not 75% as suggested in the OP, but a fractional loss that increases with inexperience and increased movement.
Any movement on top of regular movement, (such as bunny hopping or jump-spinning), will increase this loss marginally to drastically, but a lot of that is also personal sense of equilibrium, such as when you are jump-spinning, which will knock out almost all of most anyone's sense of equilibrium.
The need to balance through, is also a key factor, and any movement requires balance. In many cases, the requirement to use arm position and counter rotation to stop spin through 'arm-waving,' (for lack of a better term), preclude the ability to use a gun or aim with it except maybe to fire a short burst of spray and pray at opportune moments when coordination of movements allows it.
FPS mechanics don't really allow for those real requirements of physical inertia dampening, balance, or anything really. You'll notice that while the characters are airborne, (spinning or otherwise), they are still in a standing or crouched firing position or even walking as if on a solid surface in some cases.
Key method to enjoying FPS games is not to notice any of this stuff most of the time or to simply suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy the game. |
[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 15:47:00 -
[68] - Quote
Mars El'Theran wrote:Traynor Youngs wrote:I can tell you right now why jump/strafe is stupid.
People in the military who have been shot at, NEVER DO IT.
So a game that is supposed to be a combat sim FPS kind of game should try to minimize it.
I know from experience that shooting while running orthogonal to your target (strafing) is very very hard to do.
IN real life you either A: go slower or B: hit a lot less often.
So I recommend that CCP implement some kind of hit to accuracy and speed while strafing. You should be able to recoup the accuracy by kneeling, and recoup the speed by sprinting. Firing from the hip while strafing should be barely effective, and aiming in should slow you down and get back some of the accuracy.
I like the OPs ideas. they make sense. eh.. you're not running; you're just walking fast, and you can shoot just fine while doing that. I can shoot at a full sprint and dance my way over and around obstacles at the same time if I want, and I can do it with a bow rather than a gun too, and still hit my target. I can't bunny hop while turning in a circle firing a gun bouncing sideways spinning dizzy spins of bunny madness however. edit, I like your idea of recouping accuracy though. There is a loss to accuracy expected while you are doing any movement while shooting short of a slow, steady walk. Not 75% as suggested in the OP, but a fractional loss that increases with inexperience and increased movement. Any movement on top of regular movement, (such as bunny hopping or jump-spinning), will increase this loss marginally to drastically, but a lot of that is also personal sense of equilibrium, such as when you are jump-spinning, which will knock out almost all of most anyone's sense of equilibrium. The need to balance through, is also a key factor, and any movement requires balance. In many cases, the requirement to use arm position and counter rotation to stop spin through 'arm-waving,' (for lack of a better term), preclude the ability to use a gun or aim with it except maybe to fire a short burst of spray and pray at opportune moments when coordination of movements allows it. FPS mechanics don't really allow for those real requirements of physical inertia dampening, balance, or anything really. You'll notice that while the characters are airborne, (spinning or otherwise), they are still in a standing or crouched firing position or even walking as if on a solid surface in some cases. Key method to enjoying FPS games is not to notice any of this stuff most of the time or to simply suspend disbelief long enough to enjoy the game.
Why suspend disbelief this is what we do in modern FPS and FPS of modern times all are not invoating anymore the FPS genra has realy stopped evolving in modern times like look at the jump from MW2 to MW3 not much, look at BC2 to BF3 it almost went backwards, to me this is a awful shame
Strafing speeds at moment are more ackinded to a person runing with torso at 90 degrees pointing in one direction, iam not going to say you cant hit a target if you hip fire when strafing at some speed if you are trained for it but the accuracy fall off would be horendous due to barrel wobble probale hitting half of the time at 10 metres or so, but as the game stands now i can easily hit a target and down him at 30 metres with out using sights while strafing at full tilt
When hip firing accuracy would be reduced drasticly due to barrel wander when firing full auto and a lack of support for the gun where as while in aiming stance the stock is against shoulder and most recoil is disapated through there now while hip fring all recoil is disapated throught a backward and oftern upward movement of the gun and the arms of the person holding the gun.
i agree with you on the balence issues that are there.
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[Veteran_bjorn morkai]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:01:00 -
[69] - Quote
Yeah, no.
Lots of games use strafing. Humans have the ability to move in all sorts of directions using these things called legs. They also use them to jump, run, walk, do these things backwards, etc etc. If there isn't a shooter that doesn't allow you to strafe, chances are no one plays it and its not very good. Every FPS I've played uses strafe. It's a function that is here to stay. |
[Veteran_Absolon Gainne]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:36:00 -
[70] - Quote
I think the best thing to do is to fix the garbage hit detection first, and then decide what to do, if anything, on the topic of strafing. |
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[Veteran_usrevenge]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
Solution, auto tracking/aiming within a margin of a few pixels Fix lag. |
[Veteran_Alpha SnakeBlood]
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Posted - 2012.06.08 22:57:00 -
[72] - Quote
bjorn morkai wrote:Yeah, no.
Lots of games use strafing. Humans have the ability to move in all sorts of directions using these things called legs. They also use them to jump, run, walk, do these things backwards, etc etc. If there isn't a shooter that doesn't allow you to strafe, chances are no one plays it and its not very good. Every FPS I've played uses strafe. It's a function that is here to stay.
Lad your missing the point
We are not saying cut strafe out of the maybe its the term nerf it basically mean to reduce effectiveness not take away entirely what we want is balance and the over all game play to be better, ultimately all games have strafe but in most games strafing is not the main way to avoid death there should be more emphasis on cover and actual aiming at target not just sort of pointing in general direction/spray and pray which 90% of CQC has deteriorated into
There are too many problems with the current build leading to the strafing issues right now:
1 :one is the hit detection which is a big one,
2: staffing speed being equal to forward movement is ridiculous,
3: damage fall off at range of the ARs is way over the top due to either problem stat side or lack of other alternative for ARs alos the over all range is quite short but agin that could be down to weapon type looks like a blaster,
4: hip fire is too accurate and should decrease according to how fast you move for example a player hip firing while standing still should be much more accurate than a player hip firing while strafing due to barrel wobble/wander,
5: accuracy should deteriate over continues fire moderatly when aiming down sights due to recoil being disapated through the shoulder and exremly during hip fire due to lack support for the weapon.
I think that if these features were implemented the gun play andover all gameplay would be improved greatly adding more tactical depth and conciqunce to how you fight after all this should be the thinking man FPS. |
[Veteran_Mars El'Theran]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 00:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
Just a note, but my Aunt is an Auxiliary Police Officer and has had some experience with weapons training. Her experience indicated she was a better and more accurate shot while firing on instinct without aiming than she was when taking the time to stabilize her grip and aim, then fire. Apparently, many people are like this, but not such a high number as most people.
Not sure what her actual skill level is or was at that time though, so no idea how relevant it is to this conversation. I know myself I can presumably fire accurately 'from the hip' but always aim anyways because I'm interested in being as accurate as possible and getting better at it.
You can't just up and pop a shot off at 90 yards and hit a bulls-eye the size of a quarter or nickle when you're not aiming, 99.8% of the time. You might once, here and there maybe, but not generally speaking. If the target is less than 15 inches in diameter, you're most likely to miss it entirely anyway. |
[Veteran_FatalFlaw V1]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 02:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
The thing is, some people are not able to use all of the tools in the game effectively. Rather than try and master the tools, and learn the proper counters, they want to just remove some of the tools from the game. Effectively reduce the skill cap and make it an easier game.
I can't wait until this game is finished and people are still getting demolished. The tears will be epic.
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[Veteran_Sorry Accident]
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Posted - 2012.06.09 07:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Hunter Cazaderon wrote:Max Trichomes wrote:The current way of fighting gun battles, running and jumping in circles, is juvenile and does not fit with the spirit of Eve. Having every gunfight devolve into strafing and jumping not only feels childish and fake, but very dated. It reminds me of 1990's multiplayer Doom. I don't think CCP's vision of Dust is for it to be an arcade shooter like Doom, Unreal Tournament 3, Tribes, etc. I was under the impression Dust was supposed to be a hardcore, serious, tactical game that mirrors it's sister game Eve Online in depth, seriousness, and difficulty. Having every gun fight devolve into circling and jumping goes against that seriousness that is Eve. Internet spaceships is serious business, as should be internet drop suits.
The fix is quite simple really, a reduction in hip-fire accuracy and reduction in strafing speed when ADS. The penalties would be related to drop suit type.
Scout: 30% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 30% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Assault: 50% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 65% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Heavy: 75% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 90% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Logi: TBD (Never played with a logi suit, need input.)
If i want to play in a straight line and feel like i'm moving a truck, i just go play BF3..... And decreasing hip fire accuracy while straffing ? Do you want a game where you just stand still shooting at people ? Oo
I guess you don't know what ADS means. You can strafe while Aiming Down Sights. Who said anything about standing still. lol |
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