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![[Veteran_Max Trichomes]](https://forums.dust514.com/themes/ccpDust514/dust-avatar-128.png "[Veteran_Max Trichomes]")
[Veteran_Max Trichomes]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 01:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
The current way of fighting gun battles, running and jumping in circles, is juvenile and does not fit with the spirit of Eve. Having every gunfight devolve into strafing and jumping not only feels childish and fake, but very dated. It reminds me of 1990's multiplayer Doom. I don't think CCP's vision of Dust is for it to be an arcade shooter like Doom, Unreal Tournament 3, Tribes, etc. I was under the impression Dust was supposed to be a hardcore, serious, tactical game that mirrors it's sister game Eve Online in depth, seriousness, and difficulty. Having every gun fight devolve into circling and jumping goes against that seriousness that is Eve. Internet spaceships is serious business, as should be internet drop suits.
The fix is quite simple really, a reduction in hip-fire accuracy and reduction in strafing speed when ADS. The penalties would be related to drop suit type.
Scout: 30% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 30% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Assault: 50% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 65% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Heavy: 75% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 90% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Logi: TBD (Never played with a logi suit, need input.)
Two new groups of dropsuit mods would need to be added. One mod to increase hip-fire accuracy, one mod to increase strafing speed during ADS.
How it will effect the dropsuits:
Scout: Scouts will still be able to effectively strafe. At a distance they can use ADS and close up hip-fire. If they are going to specialize in strafing, by equipping mods they can be nearly unaffected. Snipers using scout suits won't need the hip-fire accuracy so they will equip different mods. It will create more variation and customization among the scout class. Strafing will still be a valid tactic.
Assault: Strafing will no longer be the go to move for Assault classes. They may be able to equip enough mods where they can effectively strafe but it will be at the cost of other mods. They will have to make a decision how they want to play. Most assaults will not equip these mods and start playing more tactically. They will use cover more, run from cover to cover, and most of all flank enemies.
Heavy: Heavy no longer becomes the ultimate solo suit, it becomes a massive mobile turret that needs support. Heavy were meant to be anti-vehicle, they will still be able to do this well. They will be come less effective at dealing with infantry without support, but with assault suits guarding a heavy's flanks the heavy will still be able to decimate enemy infantry. Heavys will be extremely vulnerable to strafing, but extremely deadly to enemies hiding behind cover. If they have support with them they won't be as susceptible to strafing. Heavys may need either an armor buff or a forward speed buff accordingly.
These changes would NOT get rid of strafing in Dust, but they would prevent 95% of battles from devolving into strafing and jumping. People that want to get up close and be real speedy and fire from the hip will be able to, they will just need to specialize. |
[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:14:00 -
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You need to fix your silly lack of strafing. Any game where you have shields of some kind and require sustained fire to put down there will be strafing.
This is not a problem, this is a great thing. You need to not complain and learn how to play this style of shooter. This is not one of those fail games like CoD where a shot or two puts a person down and a fraction of second lag decides a whole battle. |
[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:22:00 -
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Strafing is the spirit of EVE. Its all about keeping your transversal velocity high. lol |
[Veteran_Zat Earthshatter]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:30:00 -
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strafing fire? i'll buy that, reduces accuracy. Dancing in your dropsuit more than those scantily-clad celebrities on TV? That's a problem!
Major issue: making the hipfire spread wider, as in more random, will actully INCREASE the dancing. the true problem, and it's been said often, is terrible hit detection.
Judging by E3, we should be getting the newer build with better hit detection next weekend. Let's find out then whether its the Tango or Tango Down. |
[Veteran_Meleth Hiril]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:48:00 -
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I actually totally agree with Max's ideas
These changes to the dropsuits give a good way to fitting options and would give more casual players a better chance to not simply get frustrated and stop playing.
I would suppose it'd hardly infect hardcore gamers as they should be able to easily cope wit the new dropsuit attributes and adjust theyr play to it. But what I did experience so far, it is frustrating if your enemy is simply hopping around and you don't even land a single shot. However only in close quarter combat so far.
The longer the distance, the better the chance to actually hit these players as they are, in the most cases not closely able to cope with tactical, long range, single shot weapons, such as the tactical assault rifle.
Strafing or not. Close quarter combat should be decided by high RPM, Melee or Burstfire weapons and not by "whois the better strafer - l2p noob" situations.
Afterall, Dust 514 is so far, a very nice tactical shooter, and it would be a waste if it were to become another 0815 fps shooter.
So long
Greetings Mel
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[Veteran_PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 06:55:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:You need to fix your silly lack of strafing. Any game where you have shields of some kind and require sustained fire to put down there will be strafing.
This is not a problem, this is a great thing. You need to not complain and learn how to play this style of shooter. This is not one of those fail games like CoD where a shot or two puts a person down and a fraction of second lag decides a whole battle.
they just want CCP to dumb the gameplay down so they can get kills. |
[Veteran_Kaerill]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:27:00 -
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Silly wabbit! casual is fo kids!!
strafing is in every shooter since the genre was created. if you cant keep your crosshairs on someone then you lack skills or your sensitivity is keeping you behind.
for all the other "childish" tactics bunny hopping, drop shooting, etc etc you can blame cod and other crappy games for that they now make up the fabric of every FPS's MP now.
the best advice i can give you if your out gunned try a different tactic, mess with your settings in options, and practices new ways you fight in firefights.
currently the movement in the game runs at a decent pace any tweaking with that would result in the game feeling slow like halo and on maps that are 3x+ bigger than some of halo's maps the servers would shut down before i made it to the end side of the map |
[Veteran_John Surratt]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:33:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Strafing is the spirit of EVE. Its all about keeping your transversal velocity high. lol
Also, EVE is a spaceship game where ships have a top speed in null grav (instead of real Newtonian physics), always re-orientate to level with "up" & "down", the planets/stations don't actually move, there are non existent metals that supposedly explode in atmosphere (tritanium, really?) except that ships that hold air are made out of them. . .and drugs are made from gas that is found in space instead of coca leaves from Colombia.
I want to be able to sig tank in DUST.
Also waiting for my DUST version of hotdropo'clock. |
[Veteran_Mars El'Theran]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:40:00 -
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I'm not sure how it's appropriate to slow a heavy down by 90% then reduce their hip-fire accuracy by 75% when their hip-fire accuracy is their primary means of shooting. Heavy weapons tend to be fired that way and aiming is often impractical with them or even impossible unless they are mounted somehow, and even then not too easy.
Actually, Heavy weapons might be too accurate in general in Dust, but I'm not sure. Not with regard to the swarm launcher obviously, as it's hard to hit the broadside of a barn with that given they just sort of seem to fly out there and explode. Not sure about any others as I've only used that one, and am only now getting to the point where I can kill players with it; still haven't hit a vehicle.
That said, there is something to be desired here. I'm not sure your numbers are anywhere near necessary or even in the right order, but overall, the bunny hopping, spinning lead slingers are slightly tiresome and unrealistic. Not sure there is an easy fix though. |
[Veteran_Hunter Cazaderon]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:44:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote:The current way of fighting gun battles, running and jumping in circles, is juvenile and does not fit with the spirit of Eve. Having every gunfight devolve into strafing and jumping not only feels childish and fake, but very dated. It reminds me of 1990's multiplayer Doom. I don't think CCP's vision of Dust is for it to be an arcade shooter like Doom, Unreal Tournament 3, Tribes, etc. I was under the impression Dust was supposed to be a hardcore, serious, tactical game that mirrors it's sister game Eve Online in depth, seriousness, and difficulty. Having every gun fight devolve into circling and jumping goes against that seriousness that is Eve. Internet spaceships is serious business, as should be internet drop suits.
The fix is quite simple really, a reduction in hip-fire accuracy and reduction in strafing speed when ADS. The penalties would be related to drop suit type.
Scout: 30% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 30% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Assault: 50% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 65% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Heavy: 75% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 90% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
Logi: TBD (Never played with a logi suit, need input.)
If i want to play in a straight line and feel like i'm moving a truck, i just go play BF3.....
And decreasing hip fire accuracy while straffing ? Do you want a game where you just stand still shooting at people ? Oo |
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[Veteran_Heinikikin]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 07:50:00 -
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if your **** at aiming like me due to slow, old synapses, an across the world latency and a low amount of practice with ps3 controllers then you'll have to gang up on the circle jerkers and flood their area with rounds. Also wait for the apparently improved build coming our way or when they fix hit detection if that indeed is an issue. |
[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:19:00 -
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I really hope CCP is good at ignoring posts like this one. They say all the things that set off alarm bells. Talking about not scaring casual gamers and making things easier, and things being childish.
It is sad that people like this get in games and try to ruin them by trying to appeal to casual gamers. Casual gamers are ruining the quality of games. DUST is our hope for hardcore gamers.
Appealing to casual gamers is something you only do if you want the game to have a short life span. If you want the game to last you make it appeal to the far more loyal crowd, the hardcore gamers. Those that will stick with the game and see it grow a reputation as something greater than the rest. |
[Veteran_Zanzibar Kilminster]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:41:00 -
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What about changing jump to climb / go over, more like BF3 and Ghost recon? Or introduce a depletable stamina bar like in Day of Defeat? So people can still jump, sprint dodge etc but opnly for a limited time. Give a longer bar to lighter classess maybe?
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[Veteran_SILENTSAM 69]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 08:52:00 -
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Zanzibar Kilminster wrote:What about changing jump to climb / go over, more like BF3 and Ghost recon? Or introduce a depletable stamina bar like in Day of Defeat? So people can still jump, sprint dodge etc but opnly for a limited time. Give a longer bar to lighter classess maybe?
No!
Why do you want to ruin the game?
The jumping is great how it is. The stupid jump/climb of CoD and BF3 and other fail games is annoying.
As for the stamina bar, they already have one. The stamina goes down when you sprint, jump, or knife. Jumping takes nearly a third of your stamina and you can not keep it up long. |
[Veteran_Meleth Hiril]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 12:48:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Zanzibar Kilminster wrote:What about changing jump to climb / go over, more like BF3 and Ghost recon? Or introduce a depletable stamina bar like in Day of Defeat? So people can still jump, sprint dodge etc but opnly for a limited time. Give a longer bar to lighter classess maybe?
No! Why do you want to ruin the game? The jumping is great how it is. The stupid jump/climb of CoD and BF3 and other fail games is annoying. As for the stamina bar, they already have one. The stamina goes down when you sprint, jump, or knife. Jumping takes nearly a third of your stamina and you can not keep it up long.
why would it ruin the game?
Have you ever tried to perma sprint and keep jumping with a 30 kilo backpack and a weapon which weighs around 7-9 kilo?
Guess not, you wouldn't be talking like this then.
It's a matter of reality to keep certain mechanics and drop or change others. And constantly jumping or bunny hopping as it might be called is by far off reality in any ways. Ofcourse we're talking about bits and bytes being calculated and controlled by nerds. But still, some physics should be kept even in modern games.
Even being hit should give you an animation of being struck, thus you loose your concentration, aim and endurance. Thust you'd loose the possibility to keep bunnyhopping.
Remember, every shooter is nothing but a simulation game where players simulate combat. So please stay on topic and try to forget silly FPS shooters and childish talking about others you might consider childish. It's all just a matter of your standpoint.
My standpoint is, that DUST 514 should not become a FPS shooter like CoD, CS, Doom, Quake whatsoever, but more of a real time combat with real environment and a feeling of reality. Thus it should not be able to exploit jumping to evade fire. If you want to evade bullets, grenades or whatsoever, try asking a soldier. You have to DUCK and COVER from enemy fire. You'd never see a GI running through the battlefield jumping around.
Afterall, you carry a 30 kilo backpack plus personal equipement plus your weapon plus helmet and armor. Resulting in about 50-60 kilos of extra weight. You simply couldn't jump like a bunny with that.
So long
Mel |
[Veteran_Zanzibar Kilminster]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 12:53:00 -
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Good to know about the limited stamina - I'm not sure the rest of your argument is valid when you talk of 'fail games' - My opinion is not superior / inferior to yours, just different.
However if you consider the games where circle-strafing, bunny hopping and the like are prevalent vs those where it isn't, the more tactical shooters tend not to have a jump button.
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[Veteran_iwillrock yourworld]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 14:16:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Zanzibar Kilminster wrote:What about changing jump to climb / go over, more like BF3 and Ghost recon? Or introduce a depletable stamina bar like in Day of Defeat? So people can still jump, sprint dodge etc but opnly for a limited time. Give a longer bar to lighter classess maybe?
No! Why do you want to ruin the game? The jumping is great how it is. The stupid jump/climb of CoD and BF3 and other fail games is annoying. As for the stamina bar, they already have one. The stamina goes down when you sprint, jump, or knife. Jumping takes nearly a third of your stamina and you can not keep it up long.
Your arguments are pointless.
I dont care about other games. Clearly whats "Fail" or "Win" is a matter of personall opinion.
Same as thinking bunny hopping is "pro".
The question is the pace of the game is not coupled with the style of play Dust must have to be able to accomplish its goals of long term, risk based gameplay, and use of all assets they want ot make available. The current pace dosent allow for logistics and orbital bombardments, per example.
Why use them if we can just storm every objective?
Fact is the current build is not sync'ed with what CCP want Dust to be able to do.
Plus, another matter of opinion, to me circling and jumping are the short term player way. We dont need those. |
[Veteran_Jin J'Rayle]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 14:23:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Strafing is the spirit of EVE. Its all about keeping your transversal velocity high. lol
I have to disagree with you Sam buddy.
I agree that strafing is the spirit of EVE. But I don't think that can necessarily apply in Dust. Here's why.
In EVE. You are orbiting your target while your turrets are aimed at your target and tracking. Your turrets are angled approximately 90 degree from your vector.
If we were to apply that same concept to Dust that means you are running in a circle around your target while your torso is twisted 90 degrees to aim at him. That there is already awkward. And ... you shouldn't be able to switch directions on the fly. You'd have to twist your legs in the other direction first.
The only way to be switching direction that quickly means you must be running sideways or side-stepping. You can't honestly tell me you can run sideways as fast as you can sprint forward. On that same note, you can't tell me that you can run backwards as fast as you can run forwards. Regardless of how futuristic the suit it.
I think movement forward and backwards need to be less than movement going forwards.
I have no problem with scout suits being faster than the other suits. But it's movement sideways and backwards should not be as fast. |
[Veteran_Mavado V Noriega]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 14:28:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:You need to fix your silly lack of strafing. Any game where you have shields of some kind and require sustained fire to put down there will be strafing.
This is not a problem, this is a great thing. You need to not complain and learn how to play this style of shooter. This is not one of those fail games like CoD where a shot or two puts a person down and a fraction of second lag decides a whole battle.
+1
@ OP *facebrick* another newcomer i assume that didnt realise the hit detection issue. once that is fixed fights wont last long. strafing will still be there but if u got good aim u will hit and wont have to lead |
[Veteran_Jack McReady]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 14:38:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote:*TEARS* I can adapt!
adapt or die, simple. oh and can I have your stuff? 
this is not another generic shooter where "we ran at each other, then stand still and shot each other till someone dies" game.
this game is about super soldiers fighting in a never ending war for ressources. why would such a super soldier suddenly decide to stand still and get blown up when he can just ran around to avoid getting hit?  |
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[Veteran_Max Trichomes]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:36:00 -
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Have you guys ever heard what they said about assuming making an ass out of you? You all assume I can't strafe, I can it's easy but it's lame and childish. Only one person posting in this thread has a higher K/D ratio than me, but he's a try hard. My K/D is over 2 and quickly approaching 3.
PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote:f those fail games like CoD where a shot or two puts a person down and a fraction of second lag decides a whole battle.
they just want CCP to dumb the gameplay down so they can get kills.
I get plenty of kills, in fact I finish first on my team usually unless you are on my team Mr. Tryhard. I just want CCP to SMARTEN the game up, because it doesn't get much more dumb and childish than dancing around your enemy. If you want a run, gun, and dance game go play Halo 4, it's coming out soon (saw it at E3, actually thought it was Dust for the first 15secs). There is a reason the average age of a Halo player is under 18 years old, because the gameplay is juvenile.
How does stopping every dropsuit from running around dodging bullets like the matrix makes people fall quicker? People still aren't going to die to two bullets.
Over use of strafing limits tactics and encourages lone-wolfing, both go against the spirit of Dust/Eve. All you guys who think the strafing is fine just don't want to learn how to aim. You are happy with you no tactic, dance, spray and pray. I am an adult now (like most of the Eve customers) and that childish gameplay does not appeal to my demographic. |
[Veteran_Xocoyol Zaraoul]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 15:50:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote:Heavy: 75% Decrease in hip-fire accuracy, 90% Decrease in strafing speed during ADS
You are out of your mind if you want my massive reticule for the HMG to increase by 75%.
No.
These are all awful suggestions. |
[Veteran_JysN Quasai]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 16:18:00 -
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I also think strafing and jumping ist definitly not the sprit of EVE. I mage you have a epic meaning full Battle and everyone ist jumping arround, that is kinda hillarious. |
[Veteran_Venix]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:02:00 -
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SILENTSAM 69 wrote:Strafing is the spirit of EVE. Its all about keeping your transversal velocity high. lol
I agree with this guy. It is totally in the spirit of EvE. |
[Veteran_Venix]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:04:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote: Only one person posting in this thread has a higher K/D ratio than me, but he's a try hard. My K/D is over 2 and quickly approaching 3.
[c.
My K:D is 3, is that higher then yours?  |
[Veteran_Max Trichomes]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:15:00 -
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But you hadn't posted in the thread when I originally made that comment, so there.  Plus you being on my side just goes to prove my point, it's not that we can't play this silly game we just want a smarter, more mature shooter.
Xocoyol Zaraoul wrote:
You are out of your mind if you want my massive reticule for the HMG to increase by 75%.
No.
These are all awful suggestions.
It will only increase by 75% if you're firing from the hip, if you ADS no penalty to accuracy. Heavies are meant to be heavy, high damage, high HP, low mobility powerhouses that need support. Heavies aren't supposed to be able to dominate an open battlefield solo. They should be a tactical asset that requires support, much like a tank. I am sorry I propose a change to your easy mode. Heavies are currently OP'ed and are getting a nerf in the next patch. If they nerf the HP of the heavy they kind of destroy it's role as anti-vehicle. Heavies need the HP to take a tank hit, and heavies shouldn't be strafing and running all over the place firing their massive weapons. Heavies are massive mobile turrets, they need high HP and low mobility. If you want to play a child's dancing game Halo 4 is coming out soon. Dust should not model it's self after a Halo game, I don't want a bunch more 13yos in New Eden. |
[Veteran_Daalzebul Del'Armgo]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:17:00 -
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Afterall, you carry a 30 kilo backpack plus personal equipement plus your weapon plus helmet and armor. Resulting in about 50-60 kilos of extra weight. You simply couldn't jump like a bunny with that.
hurm oh yea futuristic power suit guess i can do that till i drain the power supply Woot! |
[Veteran_FatalFlaw V1]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:34:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote:The current way of fighting gun battles, running and jumping in circles, is juvenile and does not fit with the spirit of Eve. Having every gunfight devolve into strafing and jumping not only feels childish and fake, but very dated. It reminds me of 1990's multiplayer Doom.
Except you could not jump in the original Doom..
Using speed is a viable tactic that needs to remain in the game. If you remove it you completely negate any reason for the scout class as it becomes merely a dps/tank race which the heavy wins every time.
The game is set up like Eve in that a fast ship can out maneuver the tracking of a large slow one, just as a fast scout with lower tank and dps can kill a heavy when they get "under their guns." If this isn't working as intended I don't know what is. In fact, wasn't heavy turn speed nerfed in the last update? Why would that have been done if not to make them vulnerable to strafing tactics? It's their only vulnerability. Deal with it.
And if you play a light armor and still cant handle the strafing, try running backwards, they wont be able to strafe you if you're just as fast. Once again, the same as the Eve solution to trying to deal with a faster ship...
Quit with all the "realism" arguments. There is nothing in this game meant to be life-like. If you can't keep up with the pace of the gameplay, Eve is that way -> |
[Veteran_FatalFlaw V1]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:37:00 -
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Max Trichomes wrote:But you hadn't posted in the thread when I originally made that comment, so there. Plus you being on my side just goes to prove my point, it's not that we can't play this silly game we just want a smarter, more mature shooter.
Do you define more mature as requiring less hand-eye coordination, less emphasis on reaction time, and less emphasis on tactics such as close range strafing?
If anything you are trying to limit the skill factor from the gameplay and make it all about who has the bigger gun and more armor. |
[Veteran_J'Jor Da'Wg]
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Posted - 2012.06.05 17:43:00 -
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PUT-PROTOMAN-IN GAME wrote:SILENTSAM 69 wrote:You need to fix your silly lack of strafing. Any game where you have shields of some kind and require sustained fire to put down there will be strafing.
This is not a problem, this is a great thing. You need to not complain and learn how to play this style of shooter. This is not one of those fail games like CoD where a shot or two puts a person down and a fraction of second lag decides a whole battle. they just want CCP to dumb the gameplay down so they can get kills.
I'm not really sure what side this should fall on... on one hand, I don't really like the whole running in a circle while facing me and shooting and jumping all at once deal...
But on the other hand, I don't really want this to become a SOCOM paced shooter.
I hate to bring MAG back into the discussion again but I felt they had a very good speed of movement for their game. Honestly, I would be totally fine with it if they emulated MAG's movement system and slightly sped it up/ decreased it depending on the suit.
However, having ADS strafing speed be the same as movement in hipfire mode is rather silly. I agree with the OP on that matter with slowing down your speed when aiming down the sights, but hopefully once the next update possibly fixes hit detection issues and lag/framerate problems, the hipfire won't have to be tweaked. |
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