DUST Search - Ugh, Swarms

Knightshade Belladonna wrote:

DUST Fiend wrote:

Pokey Dravon wrote:

So you're ok with the forge which can engage and hit anything within 300m, but you're not ok with a weapon that can only engage at 175m but can hit at 400? Would you prefer Swarm Lock be 300m and max range be 300m?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Swarms to have a larger skill element associated with them, but I'm a little confused about why you're fine with Forges but no Swarms on a range-basis.

Forge gun is a skill vs skill engagement. Each player puts in an effort, and each has the opportunity to outplay the other.

Swarms is a mechanics vs skill engagement. Especially at range, where the swarmer just puts his swarms in the air and goes on about his day. I'm not quite sure what would make them feel better, I really feel they're just a poorly designed weapon and no amount of tweaks will ever make them satisfying to fight against, because they won't ever lead to skill vs skill engagements like forge guns and plasma cannons do.

Just me venting a little after blowing up to Proto Swarms waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay away from where they were fired lol.

swarms still require getting into lock on range, pretty much being in the open..and exposed in the process. Blame your team for letting a swarmer lock you then.


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DUST Fiend 16335	Posted - 2015.04.11 20:49:00 - [1] - Quote Why must an auto aim weapon travel so far? @_@ Give it some kind of buff I don't even care (even though they reaaaalllyy don't need one), just please for the love of God don't make them travel all over the map after you lol. Forge Gunners are like AV Unicorns ever since swarms got buffed lol Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16336	Posted - 2015.04.11 22:30:00 - [2] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: So you're ok with the forge which can engage and hit anything within 300m, but you're not ok with a weapon that can only engage at 175m but can hit at 400? Would you prefer Swarm Lock be 300m and max range be 300m? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Swarms to have a larger skill element associated with them, but I'm a little confused about why you're fine with Forges but no Swarms on a range-basis. Forge gun is a skill vs skill engagement. Each player puts in an effort, and each has the opportunity to outplay the other. Swarms is a mechanics vs skill engagement. Especially at range, where the swarmer just puts his swarms in the air and goes on about his day. I'm not quite sure what would make them feel better, I really feel they're just a poorly designed weapon and no amount of tweaks will ever make them satisfying to fight against, because they won't ever lead to skill vs skill engagements like forge guns and plasma cannons do. Just me venting a little after blowing up to Proto Swarms waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay away from where they were fired lol. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16336	Posted - 2015.04.11 22:40:00 - [3] - Quote Knightshade Belladonna wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: So you're ok with the forge which can engage and hit anything within 300m, but you're not ok with a weapon that can only engage at 175m but can hit at 400? Would you prefer Swarm Lock be 300m and max range be 300m? Don't get me wrong, I'd love for Swarms to have a larger skill element associated with them, but I'm a little confused about why you're fine with Forges but no Swarms on a range-basis. Forge gun is a skill vs skill engagement. Each player puts in an effort, and each has the opportunity to outplay the other. Swarms is a mechanics vs skill engagement. Especially at range, where the swarmer just puts his swarms in the air and goes on about his day. I'm not quite sure what would make them feel better, I really feel they're just a poorly designed weapon and no amount of tweaks will ever make them satisfying to fight against, because they won't ever lead to skill vs skill engagements like forge guns and plasma cannons do. Just me venting a little after blowing up to Proto Swarms waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay away from where they were fired lol. swarms still require getting into lock on range, pretty much being in the open..and exposed in the process. Blame your team for letting a swarmer lock you then. 175 meters isn't exactly "close" hahaha. The only swarmers who wander out into the open for a lock are the scrubs using basic and militia swarms lol. There is PLENTY of cover and roofs for swarmers to shoot from behind cover. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16339	Posted - 2015.04.11 23:35:00 - [4] - Quote Wasten wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why must an auto aim weapon travel so far? @_@ Give it some kind of buff I don't even care (even though they reaaaalllyy don't need one), just please for the love of God don't make them travel all over the map after you lol. Forge Gunners are like AV Unicorns ever since swarms got buffed lol Why do leave every battle you join? ? I haven't left a battle I've joined in years lol, unless I get dropped. My internet crapped out a lot today so I got dropped a few times, but that's about it. I'm the guy who loses 6 million ISK worth of tanks in a pub because I'm rolling solo against a double stacked proto squad of AV Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16340	Posted - 2015.04.12 00:43:00 - [5] - Quote jordy mack wrote: u say its more fun to have a skill vs skill fight. why? if the mechanics and results are the same who care if they are manually steered or auto lock. the fact would remain that there are missiles coming at you. also why is a forge gunner not seen as a "cowardly sniper" or "scrub swarmer"? why do vehicles not hate fg's? i dont get it. When facing a forge gunner, you actually have a chance to outmaneuver him, and for him to outplay you. It's more of a respect thing. No one with any skill really thinks "wow that noob is using a forge gun". And we think that because it's pretty even between us and them. If I have my understanding of their timings down just right, I can change direction or alter elevation at the last possible second to evade their shot. Same goes for the forge gunner. If he has an innate understanding of how long my hardeners last, or if I'm using my NOS on my tank, he can adjust his timing for that engagement and destroy me. No one ever thinks "wow that swarmer really outplayed me" because the swarmer never had to really do much of anything. He got his lock, spammed his missiles blindly, and went on about his day. No opportunity for either player to out play the other, just plain, boring, mechanical win / lose situations for both players. Also pretty much everyone can accept that having to lead your shots is a skill intensive endeavor, something swarmers will never have to worry about. Hell, literally the only leg swarmers have to stand on is "I can't shoot infantry", and it's basically the only argument that ever gets thrown around At this point I'd rather make swarm launchers be able to effect infantry in some way, and make it so swarm missiles have to be guided to their target by a targeting laser. Probably up the damage at the same time since less swarms would be launched at once. At least then maneuvering and positioning become important for both players, instead of seeing red, waiting three seconds, and collecting points. Buuuuut, that would require programming, sooooooooo....not gonna happen lol. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16340	Posted - 2015.04.12 01:14:00 - [6] - Quote jordy mack wrote: when u say "facing" do u mean u are trying to kill them in a 1v1? if so i would agree that fg and ds are probly pretty good battle. but i tend to think of swarms like a massdriver. an area denial weapon that gives u some warning but if u ignore the warning ur guna have a bad time. fg actually pisses me off more because there is no warning just insta pop after taking damage from someone else. but i no complain, ds's are pretty cheap now. Well I don't fly anymore for the most part, not till dropships get the vehicle treatment too. If you wait literally 1 second too long to run away (which generally must start BEFORE the first volley hits), you die. And nevermind that as you run away, you get chased for 400 meters by auto lock death, and god forbid anyone else on the map shoots you during this time. I just got tired of always having to run away from everything ever. If they were putting more effort into it I wouldn't mind as much, but area denial weapons aren't supposed to be as powerful as precision anti armor. But, they are. It's just an unsatisfying weapon to face, and I can't imagine it's very satisfying to use either. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16349	Posted - 2015.04.12 18:04:00 - [7] - Quote danthrax martin wrote: Somebody's on crack. I mainly swarm because forge gun was too easy... Lmfao I'm gonna assume this is troll bait, because I refuse to believe anyone could actually be so dense Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16350	Posted - 2015.04.12 18:32:00 - [8] - Quote Ripley Riley wrote: "It requires no aim or effort in order to land hits and gain WP, and thus requires no skill" So glad you agree Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16359	Posted - 2015.04.13 01:50:00 - [9] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I see pilots that dodge swarms with good flying skills. First of all, define "Dodge" Secondly, that's something I would have to see to believe, but please elaborate anyways. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16359	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:27:00 - [10] - Quote ROTFL wrote: LMAO @ pilots crying about swarms........... GG Serious, you MUST suck. I pilot and have NO problems ducking behind a building. Only a scrub will sit there and get popped like a cherry. TEAM WORK is the key. Even if you just get on mic and ask someone to wack the guy....... Swarms are in a good place! Adapt or die.... Ahh, someone who didn't actually read my post, welcome :) It was a musing about my discontent with the sheer amount of space that swarm launchers deny. A full clip entering the air is all but GUARANTEED unless the swarmer is entirely incompetent or extremely unlucky. Swarm tracking still definitely finds its way around buildings, particularly if you're closer to the launch point. So the answer to swarms, at least for Incubus, is to run. Unless you run a double hardener fit then you can stay and tank the first couple hits, but it's situational thanks to the long window of opportunity. Basically I would envision swarms like this. Not that I have any confidence that the mechanics can be adjusted at this point, but anyways: Higher zoom at least, possibly a short range scope. There's a dotted circle on in the center of the screen, something like the one the HMG has, but more noticeable. When aimed at a hostile installation or vehicle, it will turn red and you can immediately fire, or acquire your lock first and then fire. If fired without a lock, they will scream forward in a straight line until you acquire your lock. Once locked, you can only maintain your lock by keeping that circle red; if at any point you fail to maintain this lock, the missiles explode. This leads into the next change: 50% additional acceleration, 225 meter lock on range, 225 meter flight duration. Much lower turning capability, so they mostly move in a slowly altering curve, but at really high speeds. This will allow for pilot skill to come into play by being able to outmaneuver the missiles if they react quickly enough. Damage needs a significant spike to maintain similar dps, math junkies, please feel free to chime in here. Leading into: 2 round in the magazine, slightly longer reload than plasma cannon, total clip should be between 6 to 8 I think. This gives the swarmer excellent surprise advantage, but adds in more vulnerability due to having to stay still to maintain a lock. A swarmer could dispense of installations rather quickly up close with the help of a nanohive or two. Nevermind if they come across a tanker not paying any attention and loafing around. It becomes an engaging activity between two players, instead of something automatic and frustrating. I'm the worst player in the history of ever, which upsets me deeply when I wander into the top 3 pretty consistently when playing solo. I don't care, I haven't cared in a very long time now. All I care about is that it's a boring engagement right now from both sides, and I wish imagination was possible with this game, but CCP has put a strangle hold on the budget, and it's suffocating. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe

DUST Fiend 16360	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:35:00 - [11] - Quote MythTanker wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why must an auto aim weapon travel so far? @_@ Give it some kind of buff I don't even care (even though they reaaaalllyy don't need one), just please for the love of God don't make them travel all over the map after you lol. Forge Gunners are like AV Unicorns ever since swarms got buffed lol How I imagine Swarm Launchers My FG works just fine. Just ask 0.H. FG's are in a wonderful place, and they have been for some time. I just mean that there are a lot of swarmers and not so many forge gunners lol. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16360	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:38:00 - [12] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: MythTanker wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Why must an auto aim weapon travel so far? @_@ Give it some kind of buff I don't even care (even though they reaaaalllyy don't need one), just please for the love of God don't make them travel all over the map after you lol. Forge Gunners are like AV Unicorns ever since swarms got buffed lol How I imagine Swarm Launchers My FG works just fine. Just ask 0.H. FG's are in a wonderful place, and they have been for some time. I just mean that there are a lot of swarmers and not so many forge gunners lol. I agree. I would love to see a rational method design built around the forge gun, to use it as a baseline for all the other AV weapons. READ MY OVERLY LENGTHY RE-IMAGINING OF SWARM LAUNCHERS AND UNLEASH THINE WRATH!!!!!! Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16361	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:42:00 - [13] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: READ MY OVERLY LENGTHY RE-IMAGINING OF SWARM LAUNCHERS AND UNLEASH THINE WRATH!!!!!! You know if I thought you and Breakin' Stuff could not kill each other, you two could probably come up with something pretty solid. Sadly I don't know enough about flying dropships to comment much in that regard. I don't handle the numbers. That's why we have smart people. And computers. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16364	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:50:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: READ MY OVERLY LENGTHY RE-IMAGINING OF SWARM LAUNCHERS AND UNLEASH THINE WRATH!!!!!! You know if I thought you and Breakin' Stuff could not kill each other, you two could probably come up with something pretty solid. Sadly I don't know enough about flying dropships to comment much in that regard. I don't handle the numbers. That's why we have smart people. And computers. Which is why you could come up with something solid, but again I think you would try to kill each other, and not in the good way. I refuse to engage in actual rigorous balance and design discussions without the means for those discussions to potentially bear fruit. My little bitter shriveled berry can't handle it anymore. Such vet. Very bitter. I do like to muse from time to time though, when I'm not busy rustling jimmies. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16364	Posted - 2015.04.13 02:59:00 - [15] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: I refuse to engage in actual rigorous balance and design discussions without the means for those discussions to potentially bear fruit. My little bitter shriveled berry can't handle it anymore. Such vet. Very bitter. I do like to muse from time to time though, when I'm not busy rustling jimmies. Just continue to muse in my general direction and I'll try to De-bitter it and pull out useful information thingies. DON'T TELL ME HOW TO LIVE MY LIFE POKEY!!!!! (pâÄa¦át¢èa¦á)pâÄs+íGö+GöüGö+ Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe
DUST Fiend 16365	Posted - 2015.04.13 03:11:00 - [16] - Quote SILENTSAM 69 wrote: DUST Fiend wrote: SILENTSAM 69 wrote: I see pilots that dodge swarms with good flying skills. First of all, define "Dodge" Secondly, that's something I would have to see to believe, but please elaborate anyways. I mean that I watched my swarms go toward him, and when they were almost there he had a hard turn and they missed him. He may have used an Afterburner to turn that quickly, I am not sure. I have seen some pilots do some crazy stuff. I once watched my buddy do a backflip in a Drop Ship in order to crash it into one that was chasing him. Sure they both died, but it looked amazing. I'm imagining that was a Python you were shooting? I've heard it's technically possible from time to time, but I've never witnessed it. First hand or otherwise. At worst I've watched the seemingly endless swarming of missiles in a circle around your ship till they finally impact, but that hasn't happened in quite a while. Contests, Sales, Writing etc Fly Safe