DUST Search - Damage profiles and what are they good for ?

Himiko Kuronaga wrote:

Let's be serious here.

Caldari suits are ass. Shields themselves are not. The theory behind shields is still solid, its just that they are only good on a suit that can make proper use of them.

You trade a smaller HP value for currently nothing. It used to be that you traded it for some extra speed, making those suits ideal for hit and run with their faster movement, ability to disengage, and faster regen once behind cover.

Ever since Ferroscales became a thing and have been continually buffed, the speed advantage was lost. Shield or hybrid tanking as a theory still works quite well on Min assaults, but for all the Caldari suits it is pointless.

A cal assault will have a lower HP value than a gal assault, with equal speed. And the gal can rock damage mods on top of that without hurting his primary tank.

When you view it like that, the problem is obvious. It's not an issue of profiles being bad, it's just the primary suits designed for shield warfare can't make legitimate case for themselves.

If the Cal suits were faster, or if they made use of extremely fast regeneration akin to how the Cal Sent works (but needing to recharge faster outside of shield depletion), it might be another story.

"This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"

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Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1943	Posted - 2015.04.10 00:22:00 - [1] - Quote So you have shield based weapons that cut threw shields and maul armor as well and armor based weapons that have zero problems cutting threw shields as well as armor , so what are damage profiles for if the weapons are truly as effective against both but more or less ... suppose to be one or the other . The CR cuts threw shields like butter and then proceeds to do the same to armor with no problem but it's armor based , shouldn't it have a problem cutting threw shields .. it's truly unrecognizable with the difference . The ScR cuts threw shields with no problem and proceeds to do the same to armor with less trouble and don't mention charge shots , shouldn't it be one or the other . The RR kills shields and armor stands no chance ... shouldn't the same apply .?. it's range makes the difference unrecognizable at times . The PR has some trouble with shields unless your using a TAC but murders armor like it should but it's far from the CQC king it's suppose to be . Vehicles and AV is the same story . One shield based weapon that kills shields but has trouble with armor like it should , it takes time to kill a HAV with a PLC , most of the time you need grenades and an extra person so that's understandable . Swarms are killer against armor as rightfully so but it seems that the only vehicle that it has problems with are Pythons and the sort but against a shield hardened Gunnlogi , it seems to not have much trouble against shields if you can put enough volleys up . FG blasts have not too much trouble with shields and has no problem taking out armor unless it's a double hardened Maddy . Turrets are screw up all the way . Blasters cut threw everything with no problem , rails only are good against armor and seems to have trouble against shields , same as missiles but the thing is to get them down to their armor but clearly the large blaster and small rails are the go to turrets . I'm just seeing what looks like flat damage all over the board , shield and armor based weapons are just too good against both for it to be a noticeable difference unless your talking about a few weapons and the explosive weapons like the MD and FP kills both shield and armor even though their armor based weapons . Where is the noticeable difference at ? Is this why CCP was talking about vehicle turrets having a flat damage profile .?. it seems like we have that now not only with the turrets but with AV weapons as well as infantry . Thoughts ? Can anyone of you tell a noticeable difference in our weapons performance ? Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
Alena Ventrallis Ahrendee Inc. Negative-Feedback 2978	Posted - 2015.04.10 00:24:00 - [2] - Quote The reason the CR seems to cut through shields as easily as armor is because shields simply has less health to cut through. 600 shields falls just as quick as 800 armor, because the CR shots take out a similar percentage of HP from the shields as they do the armor. Whirly gun make much thunder! - Victor
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1943	Posted - 2015.04.10 00:34:00 - [3] - Quote So I'm wondering what can be done so that a noticeable difference is obtained .?., what you say seems to be fact but because of it's " profile " that shouldn't be the case like so many of the weapons that we use . I just wish that their was more of a noticeable difference . Maybe that would help the weapons stand out , help with TTK and give the game more flavor in setting up fits and such . Right now it just seems that instant death is the reoccurring theme no matter what combo one creates . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
LUGMOS Corrosive Synergy Rise Of Legion. 3376	Posted - 2015.04.10 01:43:00 - [4] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: So I'm wondering what can be done so that a noticeable difference is obtained .?., what you say seems to be fact but because of it's " profile " that shouldn't be the case like so many of the weapons that we use . I just wish that their was more of a noticeable difference . Maybe that would help the weapons stand out , help with TTK and give the game more flavor in setting up fits and such . Right now it just seems that instant death is the reoccurring theme no matter what combo one creates . poor TTK... TTK woes is the cause for all this, as shown by the obvious differences on high TTK targets like sents and vehicles My 'Quafe' Assault A-1 is made of a Sulfur-Tungsten-Silver-Gallium Alloy First to PM me with common name wins
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1944	Posted - 2015.04.10 01:51:00 - [5] - Quote Yes indeed , I would like more flavor in set ups . Right now I can just kill a scout so to speak , with just a scrambler pistol or magsec smg because it will kill armor and shields , I wouldn't have to swap weapons depending on that persons skill and movement . It would be nice to have to use a shield weapon to knock down the shields and then use a armor weapon to finish them off but now that's not even a factor , I can just use a CR , ScR , RR or sidearm like a BP because they do both , kill shields and armor so fit setups really have no importance when one weapon does it all even though the profile says it shouldn't be that easy . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1944	Posted - 2015.04.10 01:57:00 - [6] - Quote I just would like the profiles to have more of an effect on the battlefield and become more pronounced in engagements because right now there's not much of a noticeable difference to me when you can just use one weapon for most engagements most of the time . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
Leadfoot10 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 3699	Posted - 2015.04.10 01:58:00 - [7] - Quote Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: The PR has some trouble with shields unless your using a TAC but murders armor like it should but it's far from the CQC king it's suppose to be Do you mean AR? Are you using the same gun as me? It's +10 shields, -10 armor. Also, the reason why you think everything eats shields is because nobody really runs them at HP levels comparable to armor.
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1944	Posted - 2015.04.10 02:01:00 - [8] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui wrote: The PR has some trouble with shields unless your using a TAC but murders armor like it should but it's far from the CQC king it's suppose to be Do you mean AR? Are you using the same gun as me? It's +10 shields, -10 armor. Also, the reason why you think everything eats shields is because nobody really runs them at HP levels comparable to armor. Because you can't , I can tank an amarr assault with more armor then a caldari assault can shields , same with heavies , cal heavies don't come near a ammar in shields , much less gal compared to the armor . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 18123	Posted - 2015.04.10 02:01:00 - [9] - Quote Where is the "Absolutely Nuthin'!" GÇ£That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die.GÇ¥ -The Nameless City
Himiko Kuronaga Fatal Absolution Negative-Feedback 5672	Posted - 2015.04.10 02:05:00 - [10] - Quote Let's be serious here. Caldari suits are ass. Shields themselves are not. The theory behind shields is still solid, its just that they are only good on a suit that can make proper use of them. You trade a smaller HP value for currently nothing. It used to be that you traded it for some extra speed, making those suits ideal for hit and run with their faster movement, ability to disengage, and faster regen once behind cover. Ever since Ferroscales became a thing and have been continually buffed, the speed advantage was lost. Shield or hybrid tanking as a theory still works quite well on Min assaults, but for all the Caldari suits it is pointless. A cal assault will have a lower HP value than a gal assault, with equal speed. And the gal can rock damage mods on top of that without hurting his primary tank. When you view it like that, the problem is obvious. It's not an issue of profiles being bad, it's just the primary suits designed for shield warfare can't make legitimate case for themselves. Usually banned for being too awesome.

Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1944	Posted - 2015.04.10 02:09:00 - [11] - Quote Leadfoot10 wrote: I absolutely notice damage profiles and try to use them to my advantage. That's good and all but can you truly tell me that you can't start and finish a confrontation with the same weapon ? Most people do , they don't switch , hence the side arm buff which was an attempt to get people to use their side arms more , hell we even had an event for side arms . Most players start and end a confrontation with the same weapon because damage profiles are not really a factor besides calculations on paper , they really have zero effect on the battlefield . I would just like them to be more pronounced and have more of a meaning and impact in engagements , because right now there's no noticeable difference . Infantry , AV and vehicle turrets . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers
Joseph Ridgeson warravens 3712	Posted - 2015.04.10 06:53:00 - [12] - Quote Himiko Kuronaga wrote: Let's be serious here. Caldari suits are ass. Shields themselves are not. The theory behind shields is still solid, its just that they are only good on a suit that can make proper use of them. You trade a smaller HP value for currently nothing. It used to be that you traded it for some extra speed, making those suits ideal for hit and run with their faster movement, ability to disengage, and faster regen once behind cover. Ever since Ferroscales became a thing and have been continually buffed, the speed advantage was lost. Shield or hybrid tanking as a theory still works quite well on Min assaults, but for all the Caldari suits it is pointless. A cal assault will have a lower HP value than a gal assault, with equal speed. And the gal can rock damage mods on top of that without hurting his primary tank. When you view it like that, the problem is obvious. It's not an issue of profiles being bad, it's just the primary suits designed for shield warfare can't make legitimate case for themselves. If the Cal suits were faster, or if they made use of extremely fast regeneration akin to how the Cal Sent works (but needing to recharge faster outside of shield depletion), it might be another story. Caldari Suits are generally ass. Logistics has a crap bonus, Assault has a crap bonus, Sentinel doesn't work considering Sentinels are supposed to be all about the close quarter fighting with a bunch of HP however the Scout is awesome. I believe some of this has to do with the fact that Scouts are better designed than Assaults but I think it is actually the fact that the Scouts have AWESOME Shield stats. 50 HP/S, 3 Recharge, 4 Depleted for the Scouts compared to the 30 HP/S, 5 Recharge, 6 Depleted for the Assaults. I would like to see all Caldari Suits closer to this; just damn good at getting Shields back. However, I do think a lot has to do with Shields being inferior to Armor. I am not going to talk about HP because if Shields had the same HP as Armor and still repaired faster, they would clearly be superior in ways that shouldn't happen. 1. Shield modules take a lot more resources. Prototype Armor Plate is 37/12 CPU/PG, Ferroscale is 23/8, and Reactive is 25/8. Complex Shield extenders require 54/11. If you divide every Prototype Assault's CPU by PG, you get about 5.5:1 (Minmatar has a high of 6.03 while Amarr has a low of 4.99). For costing 17 more CPU than basic Plates, Extenders 'should' cost about 3 less PG 2. Shield modules require more slots. The response to the posts about Shield being inferior to Armor generally go with "you need to fit it right; use Regulators." This is supposedly able to bring Armor and Shields on the same level. Armor has no such requirement to use their High slots in order for their defenses to be considered effective. 3. Shields require 3 skills while Armor only has 2. Regulators and Recharges are considered two separate skills, meaning that Shields have a higher SP requirement. Minor, minor point but it is still worth making. 4. "Shields are supposed to hide, use cover while Armor is meant for CQC." The problem with this is that Armor has no negative when fighting at range. It isn't "Shields are better at long range and Armor is better at close range", it is "Shields and Armor are the same at range and Armor is better at close range." Also, "use range and cover" has more to do with the weapon you are using than your defensive doctrine. Doesn't matter how much EHP you have, you probably don't want to use that Sniper Rifle at 2 meters. 5. Repair Hives and Repair Tools. 6. Armor can build themselves in more viable ways. They can go with a slower fit with higher EHP, they can use Reactives to move faster, they can even potentially be better at Shield's game of recharge by throwing in Complex Armor Repairers to hit 9.38 HP a second. Shield are generally either max EHP or use Regulators and Rechargers, both of which I would argue still end up being less effective than Armor. In theory, the idea of "Less HP but Recharge faster" should work. However, it really isn't working as well as it is at the moment. I think some of the issue has to deal with EVE lore. Caldari build ships that are slow, have a lot of shields, and shoot at long range. That doesn't really work in a FPS as a whole. If the Sniper in a class based shooter like TF2 is a slow, lumbering behemoth of flesh (just using words that my high school year book used to describe me), it works because the Sniper is never going to have an Assault Rifle and be expected to toss it in with people that are faster or have more HP. While I do agree that some of the issue is that Caldari suits (Scouts aside) are ass, I do think that Shield modules have a fair amount of play to it. Like between 40:60 - 60:40. To the OP: Aye, Damage Profiles are kind of pointless currently. Grenades tear apart by Shields and Scramblers tear apart my Armor. This is probably more to do with the fact that the duration of fights is fairly short. If it takes 2 seconds to kill a suit with the positive profile weapon and 2.5 seconds to kill a suit with a negative profile weapon, it will matter a lot less than "who started kicking first and who is wearing the bigger boots." "This is B.S! This is B.S! I paid money! Cash money, dollars money, cash money!"
Reign Omega T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K 1398	Posted - 2015.04.10 07:17:00 - [13] - Quote Plasma rifle has no trouble with shields. Mark a$$ tricks, and bags of dicks....
Shinobi MumyoSakanagare ZaShigurui Onikanabo Brigade Caldari State 1945	Posted - 2015.04.10 12:49:00 - [14] - Quote Spot fracking on as you are for the most part Joseph , you touched on the inferiority of shields and the fact that their more of a effort tax with less then stellar results for the most part and your understanding where I'm coming from on the topic . Fantastic but not just from you but from many that posted on this comment . While the idea and system of damage profiles is something that most if any other game , cannot compare to in the ingenuity department ... hence bringing a dynamic that's never if at all rarely seen in ANY game , it's lackluster and has zero effect in the battlefield for the most part because it's usage is under-pronounced and unutilized . This needs to change because this dynamic is not having the intended effect and it would help with TTK instead of buffing or nerfing a particular item , also it might just stop that process all together because the mechanics of weapons would have MORE of a meaning then just calculations on paper . This game could and should be the game that's copied and need not to copy ... ergo halo jumps , while they are good , this game should be setting the president in the next level . Doubts are like flies and should be treated as such and crushed . #PubsShouldBeRandomPlayers


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My 'Quafe' Assault A-1 is made of a Sulfur-Tungsten-Silver-Gallium Alloy