| Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
|
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
898
   |
Posted - 2015.03.13 13:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Shield v. Armor
What Armor Gained :
40% Armor Hardeners - Huge.
Fitting Room - Giving them the ability to viably fit multiple hardeners of which there was very little incentive with their pre-echo slot layout and hardening percentages. It was better to fit plates.
Retaining of constant, uninterruptable rep rates of anywhere between 110-220 (without skill) on viable fits. This, combined with their uninterruptable high reps and multi-40% hardener fits, further stack the deck in Armor's favor.
Their natural counters in the form of Large Missiles and Large Railguns being nerfed.
What Shield Gained :
Shield Regulators. Of dubious usefulness due to the low natural shield regen rate (often times lower than what Armor gets uninterrupted) and the fact that they're useless in battle. If you're looking to use cover and find a moment to get some shields back you won't have regenerated enough at any given moment to be able to compete with Armor's constant regen.
Turret Balance
Blasters - Absolutely terrifying, so overwhelmingly powerful compared to the other turret choices in their current states that there's next to no reason to use anything else.
Railguns - Here's the main problem as I see it. Given the speed of tanks in any situation where you haven't caught your opponent (Blaster Maddy) in a bad position you will not have dealt enough damage even with a heat sink for them to choose retreating over laughing in your face and killing you instead. They'll double up on their hardeners, turn on their nitrous, and close the gap in no time. Then they'll destroy you. Essentially these tanks have been relegated to mountain top sniping and lurking in the redline.
Missiles - Hahahaha. Yeah, these need to be looked at.
So, unless I'm missing something, there's like no reason to use a Shield tank. Railguns and Missiles are more potent at killing Gunnlogi's than they are at killing Maddies and the Maddie as an attack platform is just way more effective as a whole. Couple this with Dispersion modules moving up to high slots and the Madrugar is going to be in a situation where it can act as AV and Anti Infantry without sacrificing anything in terms of tank in the process
Fixes?
The obvious one is to nerf Armor Hardeners back down to 25%. Shields are inherently more fragile so it makes sense that they'd harden at a higher percentage because (weirdly enough) the Shield Tanks are more based around raw hit points and the Armor Tanks are more based in making use of their regen. This'll have a side effect of encouraging armor tankers to pick plates which, in turn, makes it so that their ability to close the gap between a person who has Rails less potent.
Another option is to take the much more challenging route of reconsidering the mechanics of Armor and Shield regen as a whole. This would include doing something to address the huge always on rep rates and fixing shield boosters. I hate to beat a dead horse here but looking back at the Chromosome/Pre-Uprising 1.7 paradigm (active armor and shield repair modules that weren't interruptable, very small always on shield regen, no base armor regen. Shields were regen. Armor was eHP) just for this particular issue may give some insights as to how to move forward.
SHAV v HAV
I get that you don't want there to be an advantage to not picking turrets but in their current state SHAVs aren't "on par with HAV but lacking turrets" but instead just outright inferior because they're unable to replicate, on a purely module basis and disregarding turrets, my best Maddy/Gunnlogi fittings.
Overall it was a fun (seriously I haven't tanked this much since before Uprising 1.7) but rocky first step. I appreciate the adding of additional modules to the game as they've seriously encouraged fitting diversity but note that there's still a loooong way to go. Have fun trying to balance the current paradigm while still trying to come out with UHAVs in a timely manner, I certainly don't envy that burden, Rattati. 
|
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4142
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 13:57:00 -
[2] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:
Fixes?
The obvious one is to nerf Armor Hardeners back down to 25%. Shields are inherently more fragile so it makes sense that they'd harden at a higher percentage because (weirdly enough) the Shield Tanks are more based around raw hit points and the Armor Tanks are more based in making use of their regen. This'll have a side effect of encouraging armor tankers to pick plates which, in turn, makes it so that their ability to close the gap between a person who has Rails less potent.
Another option is to take the much more challenging route of reconsidering the mechanics of Armor and Shield regen as a whole. This would include doing something to address the huge always on rep rates and fixing shield boosters. I hate to beat a dead horse here but looking back at the Chromosome/Pre-Uprising 1.7 paradigm (active armor and shield repair modules that weren't interruptable, very small always on shield regen, no base armor regen. Shields were regen. Armor was eHP) just for this particular issue may give some insights as to how to move forward.
Everything before the fixes part and after is spot on generally hence why i deleted it.
The problem is your fixes, you nerf armor hardeners back down to 25% and we end with what we had before the patch, a useless shield and armor tank with armor AV putting holes in it.
The way has always been buff the weaker side to be level with the other side that way you have 2 useful things instead of 2 useless things.
Also armor is now a passive rep which belongs to shield really and armor does it alot better where as chrome had it the otherway around and it still worked.
The way the mechanics are i do not see it changing, it seems the they are trying to repliate the infantry side of the game onto vehicles and currently armor is king it seems so why is it a suprise that armor is king again.
Disclaimer:
The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
|
Foundation Seldon
Heaven's Lost Property
898
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:07:00 -
[3] - Quote
Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
Everything before the fixes part and after is spot on generally hence why i deleted it.
The problem is your fixes, you nerf armor hardeners back down to 25% and we end with what we had before the patch, a useless shield and armor tank with armor AV putting holes in it.
The way has always been buff the weaker side to be level with the other side that way you have 2 useful things instead of 2 useless things.
Also armor is now a passive rep which belongs to shield really and armor does it alot better where as chrome had it the otherway around and it still worked.
The way the mechanics are i do not see it changing, it seems the they are trying to repliate the infantry side of the game onto vehicles and currently armor is king it seems so why is it a suprise that armor is king again.
Yeah the AV side of the equation definitely complicates things and it's even more tricky because I actually think Anti Armor AV is able to take on even the newly buffed Maddies without much issue. I know Rattati mentioned that he wanted to make AV omni damage (does same amount of damage to both armor and shields) as a way of uncomplicating AV. As a side effect Swarms and Forges (the main AV) would do inherently less damage to armor. So if Swarms lost 15% extra damage to armor at the same time as Tanks losing 15% from their hardeners then that'd be one solution to the AV equation.
But then Swarms doing more damage to Shield Vehicles puts the Python in a weird position ...
|
Takahiro Kashuken
Red Star.
4143
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 14:15:00 -
[4] - Quote
Foundation Seldon wrote:Takahiro Kashuken wrote:
Everything before the fixes part and after is spot on generally hence why i deleted it.
The problem is your fixes, you nerf armor hardeners back down to 25% and we end with what we had before the patch, a useless shield and armor tank with armor AV putting holes in it.
The way has always been buff the weaker side to be level with the other side that way you have 2 useful things instead of 2 useless things.
Also armor is now a passive rep which belongs to shield really and armor does it alot better where as chrome had it the otherway around and it still worked.
The way the mechanics are i do not see it changing, it seems the they are trying to repliate the infantry side of the game onto vehicles and currently armor is king it seems so why is it a suprise that armor is king again.
Yeah the AV side of the equation definitely complicates things and it's even more tricky because I actually think Anti Armor AV is able to take on even the newly buffed Maddies without much issue. I know Rattati mentioned that he wanted to make AV omni damage (does same amount of damage to both armor and shields) as a way of uncomplicating AV. As a side effect Swarms and Forges (the main AV) would do inherently less damage to armor. So if Swarms lost 15% extra damage to armor at the same time as Tanks losing 15% from their hardeners then that'd be one solution to the AV equation. But then Swarms doing more damage to Shield Vehicles puts the Python in a weird position ...
AV hasn't changed with the new vehicles, it is still the same as it was.
If it goes omni damage then we are not in New Eden and it is a lazy way of balancing because armor would recieve quite a buff while shield gets another set of nerfs due to how much AV does armor damage.
DS wise armor gains and shield loses.
Again vehicles would need to have stats changed but this time shield would need more HP, infact both hulls could have the same amount of HP for shield and armor because omni damage just will do x amount of damage againt y hp number.
It would lead to why have 4 racial tanks? You don't gain an advantage against AV if you picked shield or armor since it is omin damage.
Disclaimer:
The above post is respectful, contains no ranting, contains no personal attacks, contains no trolling, contains no racism, contains no discrimination, contains no profanity, contains no spamming. This post is an opinion and is related to DUST514
CCP Rattati - "One giant vehicle nerf with more power to AV", you have got to be kidding...''
|
Thaddeus Reynolds
Facepunch Security
219
|
Posted - 2015.03.13 16:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
well...the SHAVs are bugged right now, known issue and they're working on it.
As far as the rest goes, shields cannot maintain a large enough buffer and not enough utility (partially because it seems that shield HAVs have a lower fitting cap, and practically require fitting mods to work...which would have been problematic in the least if the fitting mod changes had gone through)...additionally, shields have the issue that their only other way of recovering shields (besides passive regeneration which cannot have its rate modified) the shield booster requires so much PGU (Which cannot be reduced) that fitting would be impractical if they weren't as temperamental a module as they are.
overall the change I think was a positive one, as we now have the new player friendly base armor regen (which might need to be smaller imo) more slots to work with to enable us to make a larger verity of fits when we get new modules, and at least we saw the beginning of the reintroduction of combat utility modules.
Things that may need to happen in the near future:
Shield Hardeners probably didn't need the nerf to be as hard as it was to them, reduce fitting cost slightly
Shield Boosters need a major reduction in PG and/or a skill to reduce shield module PG usage before I could justify putting them on most HAV fittings
Damage Modifier Modules will need their boost potential looked at, given how many can be fit at a time
Gunnlogi/Gladius need a healthy fitting increase (So that the lows might one day be used for something)
Maddy/Marduk may need a very slight fitting increase (nothing nearly as major as the Gunnlogi/Gladius could use)
Railguns are in a touchy place, they can be very potenet, but require the use of a high-slot to make them so...they're not in a Caldari Railgun place right now, but they are closer to the "Main Gun" role that they have been trying to fill for HAVs...they'll need their old proposed damage numbers to do it now though imo
Utilities in the lows would also be nice, things like passive heat sinks/damage mods, the return of overdrives etc etc (which would help balance out the Gunnlogi/Gladius ability to use fitting mods, by giving them an opportunity cost...regulators are nice but they don't help you in the brawl, which is traditionally a Caldari thing to do)
Farther future is where I think we'll see the debate on weather to change shield/armor mechanics at all, and I know I'll be campaigning to change things to work more like they do on my starships myself....but it isn't something I expect to be pursued until after phase 3 of the whole vehicle initiative.
Khanid Logi and Tanker, sometimes AV Heavy or Sniper.
Vehicle Re-vamp Proposal
|
|
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |