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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 32 post(s) |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
725
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Posted - 2015.03.06 02:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Fizzer XCIV wrote:True Adamance wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Stefan Stahl wrote:Breakin Stuff wrote:Pre-release assessment: Heavy Machinegun [...] This is going to make the Sentinels cluster even tighter into the CQC maps and roam a lot less. Given the nature of the maps they're going to cluster up in, even with the 11% base DPS nerf I'm going to say this isn't going to do the job of dislodging the heavy meta. I concur. Earlier I said you can't get Sentinels out of CQC by reducing range and I still believe it's valid. Really bottom level game design question: When a HMG Sentinel and an AR Assault duke it out in a typical outpost at 0-30 m range, who should win at which probability? If the HMG Sentinel is supposed to win ~90% of the time, we don't have a problem. If the HMG Sentinel is only supposed to win less than 60% of the time, why have an HMG Sentinel? I'm not proposing a solution, I'm asking the question. Once we know how that situation is supposed to play out we can change the game to be like that. This is why I want heavies out of CQC. The primary resistance isn't because it's a bad idea. it's because people like winning 90% of the time. Making sentinels the open ground powerhouses would threaten that because they'd be exposed to the stuff that'll tear them to ribbons. in close it's just shotguns, REs, NK and other fatties with maybe occasionally being shot in the face with a PLC. in the open it's HAVs, ADS, charge sniper, tac sniper, forge guns, rail rifles, ACR, LAVs with decent turrets, also fast movers with the traditional assassination methods because you have to fall back to cover to regen/resupply sooner or later. For shield sents you have the additional threat of scrams, and the laser rifle. in close the HMG more or less outclasses everything. in the open, even if you outrange them with an HMG they still have a fighting chance to kill you. I've not yet come to understand why Sentinels don't wish to actually be juggernauts with large calibre weapons that can lock down infantry and vehicles from a range while being able to put down suppressive fire on tough to crack emplacements. Think mid way between Alex's HMG and a Mass Driver. Slower firing, much more powerful auto-cannon rounds, get in position and you are like a Mini Turret but up close you are subject to faster moving dropsuits like scouts and assaults. "because people like winning 90% of the time" They don't care whether their role fits into the game well...
Incorrect. Because area denial roles require mobility. Heavies don't have that. The idea of a heavy being outside but being dangerous at range doesn't work because the heavy can't move around the battle field and change their area of denial. All they do is become open area campers and can't really commit to the battle very often as, when said battle moves or changes, that heavy won't catch up to the next fight till it is already over. Heavies will earn virtually no WP. Basically, they will be the closer range, slower moving version of a redline sniper.
That's the reason why people who play a lot of Sent don't want to do this. Mobility is the single most important factor in long range battles -- and since Sents don't have it they won't be able to do it.
Heavies out of CQC is a ludicrous idea. Change map design so that more points are open with no cover. That would right there solve your problem with no changes needed.
Breakin is right about one thing though -- this won't kick heavies out of CQC at all. It might reduce the number of them though. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
725
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Posted - 2015.03.06 02:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Back on topic -- lots of interesting and scary things.
Instead of providing feedback on stuff I haven't tried out yet -- I'll just be excited to try it out. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
726
|
Posted - 2015.03.06 07:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Imp Smash wrote:
Incorrect. Because area denial roles require mobility. Heavies don't have that. The idea of a heavy being outside but being dangerous at range doesn't work because the heavy can't move around the battle field and change their area of denial. All they do is become open area campers and can't really commit to the battle very often as, when said battle moves or changes, that heavy won't catch up to the next fight till it is already over. Heavies will earn virtually no WP. Basically, they will be the closer range, slower moving version of a redline sniper.
That's the reason why people who play a lot of Sent don't want to do this. Mobility is the single most important factor in long range battles -- and since Sents don't have it they won't be able to do it.
Heavies out of CQC is a ludicrous idea. Change map design so that more points are open with no cover. That would right there solve your problem with no changes needed.
Breakin is right about one thing though -- this won't kick heavies out of CQC at all. It might reduce the number of them though.
No they simply don't. I don't need to move for my Laser Rifle to clear entire sections of the map. I get into position I can stay there as long as I need to. In other games once I get my Tiger H1 into position (its a heavy tank with a big gun) very little but well placed high calibre shots can dislodge me. You simply do not need to move to fulfil an area denial role, you simply need to get into position within the area and BAM you have a sweet spot of wreaking havoc.
You can defend an open area. Seeing as map design puts the VAST amount of points in areas with plenty of cover --- no -- you won't be contributing to objective game modes with a laser.
I run a laser as well. And yes, there are some points on some maps where a laser (or a heavy with a laser like autocannon) could be helpful. But very little.
Add to that the heavy extra large hitbox (and head hitbox) giving a heavy less ability to take cover and you have a sitting duck to RRs, Scramblers, Lasers, snipers, and forgeguns. Simply because any suit can post up anywhere and shoot at that heavy, duck behind whatever rock or hill is in the area, and pop back out due to their mobility. Cloaked scouts will be having a field day. Heavies can't move so -- LAVS. Or HAVs. Basically when doing area denial you need to control range.
Let's imagine tactics. Ok. hack point in this building. Large open plains all around. Lets put a couple of Sents on the roof with their laser like HMGs. That will be plenty good defense.
Except Laser.
Ok lets assume the HMG outranges the laser.
Sniper or cloaky shotgun.
Sentinels will literally be unable to defend anything simply because before anyone hits them they will die. I mean, I like tactics, and counter tactics to Sents is a great thing. Unless there is no counter to that counter in which case no more heavies outside of forge sniping.
Oh wait -- you are an Amarr Assault just like me. You forget that 1. AmAss have more speed. 2.A shitton of HP for an assault 3. Smaller Hitbox and 4.A TON of stamina to use to help move around the battlefield.
Lets try to force heavies out into the open so that the MinSent and Am Sent become the only SemiViable heavies and laugh at the GalSent and CalSent.
All this is assuming the HMG stays the only 1 of 2 heavy weapons. We might get more heavy weapons. Should they all be outside only?
Way too many holes in this argument. |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
729
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Posted - 2015.03.06 23:52:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ok. 5 pages to catch up on. I don't know how you guys spend so much time on the forums :/ To be completed in edits...
Area Denial: Anytime anyone says anything "should be" a certain way -- |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 00:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Part 2. Reserved.
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Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 00:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Deleted |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
729
|
Posted - 2015.03.07 02:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Bright Cloud wrote:The "assault HMG" will just work like a glorified breach assault rifle. That will be probs the most used HMG on heavys or they just go back and put a light weapon on cause after all nothing stops them to put a shotgun in their weapon slot.
Ironically, heavies will be more able to use the shotgun. Problem with it was that a heavy was slow so you could backpeddle out of range while shooting them.
Now they will keep up!
KEROSIINI-TERO wrote: Increasing deployable equipment carried amount by THREE[/u] Oh no. That WILL increase nade spam. I promise, I will multiply my Core nade spam amount! That would require a nade nerf of sorts (nade resupply rate should be increased a lot)
I hadn't thought of that. Come to think of it, does the equipment change only affect uplinks? (which are getting an efficiency nerf) or does it affect nanohives too? Will we be able to carry 5 hives in a slot? Will they provide just as many nanites as before?
That will make mass drivers, lasers, grenades, forges and PLCs more...interesting shall we say? |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
732
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:29:00 -
[8] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:ery similar dps, a little lower than normal because it can harm vehicles whereas the other one can not. The clip is reduced to have similar damage per clip and ammo reserves.
What about dispersion? Will the Assault HMG's dispersion get a change? Or will it run on the same curve as it has been? |
Imp Smash
Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance
732
|
Posted - 2015.03.08 23:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Misclick and deleted! |
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