DUST Search - To Rattati: Help the logis PLEASE

Adipem Nothi wrote:

Meee One wrote:

Adipem Nothi wrote:

el OPERATOR wrote:

Especially with a GalLogi who is quite likely detectable itself. And very likely underpowered for any sort of direct confrontation against a combat-superior frame that capitalizes.

Those arguments ring a bell ...

Remember when Zatara was campaigning to change "360 Wallhacks" and "Trifectas"?

Well, Scouts pointed out then just like you're pointing out now that Recon Scouts were super squishy. They were squishier than any GalLogi, and unlike the GalLogi they had to get within Fine Rifle range of a unit to scan it. Scouts also pointed out that they couldn't simultaneously run Damps and Range Extenders, so (just like your GalLogi) they were very likely being scanned if they were running scans. Unlike your GalLogi, they didn't earn WP; their unpaid job was to get close and keep the scans up by trying not to die.

But they had cloak! Right? Nope. Cloak-blind went into effect before we retired the Recon Scout.

You're conveniently leaving out the fact that those 360 wallhacks worked 100% of the time.

Where as scanners work once every 30-45 seconds.

Not while cloaked!

And where are you getting 30-45 seconds? The Creodron Prox Scanner has 10 second cooldown. I use it all the time. Pretty sure scanner cooldown times are still listed in game. One GalLogi with four, 21dB scanners can keep a significant portion of a map perma-scanned. Count how many seconds pass between the "you've been scanned" messages next time you play Ambush against Nyain San. If the match lasts 300 seconds, I'll bet you'll have been scanned for 250 of 'em.

Open-Beta Vet.
Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.


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el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:40:00 - [1] - Quote Alena Ventrallis wrote: Logis need so much work and haven't been touched in months. They have VERY low health, low speed, high profile, no sidearm, the list goes on. Whule they need a major overhaul, all I ask is please please PLEASE make the following simple changes. 1. Normalize slot layout with assault suits. 2. Normalize equipment slots across all tiers (basically add 1 equipment slot to basic tier logis) 3. Adjust PG/CPU to account for the extra slots I'm begging you, even this simple change would do wonders for the logi class. While we debate how to balance them further, at the least these changes will help aleviate the frustration dedicated logibros are having to deal with. 1. Opposed to this at this time. Slot-parity with assaults at all levels leads to mod layout duplicity with assaults at all levels. Its not an assault frame, the slot layout difference reinforces this. 2. Opposed to this at this time. "WPWhoring" is a major issue with these frames and is the basis for much of the criticism of leaderboard position which has in part led to misconstrued conclusions about the frames, their use and their overall survivability . This circumstance is undoubtedly a large part of why they've gone unfixed for so long. 3. CPU/PG buffs need to happen for all of them, Cal and Amarr being most in need currently. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:51:00 - [2] - Quote Sole Fenychs wrote: Edit: In fact, if you could fix the issue that causes the "max active" count of equipment to only apply to identical pieces of equipment, Pretty sure thats not an "issue" but is how equipment limits and maxes are supposed to work. If they worked as you describe (limits on equipment type, irrespective of individual model) then eq deployment and use in general would be drastically affected in very negative ways, which will degrade the quality of the force multiplication Logis are supposed to provide as well as make the overall job even harder. Sole Fenychs wrote: P.S. The most important addition to Logis is likely a bandwith/active module count UI. This is actually the most important post-bandwidth addition all frames need. So important it should've been a part of the BW rollout to begin with. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 20:52:00 - [3] - Quote Ku Shala wrote: resupply equipment @ depot is a good idea +1 Agreed, eq resupply @ depot is a good idea. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 23:32:00 - [4] - Quote Assert Dominance wrote: nothing wrong with logis other than gal scan bonus is broken Almost forgot this one. I disagree, nothing broken about a scanner scanning suits that aren't stealth focused or dedicated. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.02 23:42:00 - [5] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Assert Dominance wrote: gal scan bonus is broken Agreed. To fix, swap Gal precision bonus with cooldown bonus. Alena Ventrallis wrote: add 1 equipment slot to basic tier logis adjust PG/CPU to account for the extra slots Agreed. Also swap Logi and Assault Speeds, such that Class Speed and Class HP become inversely related. Also reduce price of Logi frame and reduce EQ pricing; the role is disproportionately Isk-intensive by comparison to other infantry roles. EQ price reductions would be benefical to everyone, if this idea is to be Logi-centric then it should be a purchasing discount, maybe applied when indivdually restocking modules in the fitting screen. We definitely need to be faster however simply swapping us around from Assaults is a disservice to the Assaults, who should be tankier at speed. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.03 00:46:00 - [6] - Quote Gyn Wallace wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: EQ price reductions would be benefical to everyone, ... But disproportionately so for Logis. By all means let us all enjoy the benefits of cutting equipment costs in half. Logis will be saving about twice as much as anybody else. Combined with reducing logi suit costs, since they carry more expense in their fittings, and we'll have a more reasonable isk balance among the infantry classes. I'm not saying that eq pricing isn't in need of adjustment, just that it's a boon for everyone so don't mistake it as a "Logi buff". Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 868	Posted - 2015.03.03 02:05:00 - [7] - Quote Varoth Drac wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Assert Dominance wrote: nothing wrong with logis other than gal scan bonus is broken Almost forgot this one. I disagree, nothing broken about a scanner scanning suits that aren't stealth focused or dedicated. I agree with your statement, but I think the Gal logi bonus makes it too difficult to focus your suit on stealth, to the point where it's not really viable. Which means people don't bother with fitting for stealth and variety / counter play in the game is diminished. Basically I think 3 complex damps is too much for an assault to hide from scans (i'm not getting into focused scans, just the other variants). 2 damps, like it was in the past, seems fairer for people who want put the effort into dampening. This would promote greater fitting variety and put a stop to people complaining about perma-scan (ok, whishfull thinking), as you could more reasonably expect people to dampen if they have a problem with scans. If you swapped the precision bonus for something like cooldown, it would buff Gal logi scans against the high profile majority. As I doubt many people would take the option to dampen, this would probably be a net buff to Gal logis. But we would have a fairer EWAR situation overall. Thing is, stealth frames already have the ability to beat scanners. Dialed back farther we regress the tenative balance that exists between stealth and detection. A fully stealth stacked assault frame can only be so effective at stealth in general or it begins to overlap too far onto what is supposed to be Scout territory. The whole point of the GalLogi bonus is as a Counter-Recon capacity. Counter-Recon, it's worth noting, that can still be defeated by Recon-Specialized frames. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 888	Posted - 2015.03.03 03:41:00 - [8] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: The whole point of the GalLogi bonus is as a Counter-Recon capacity. Counter-Recon, it's worth noting, that can still be defeated by Recon-Specialized frames. There are no competitive Recon or Counter-Recon units other than the GalLogi. Any Scout that is capable of dampening under the scanner is. EDIT: Should Be The onus is on the user to perform in a recon capacity. I see this done and done well in PC often. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 889	Posted - 2015.03.03 04:32:00 - [9] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: The whole point of the GalLogi bonus is as a Counter-Recon capacity. Counter-Recon, it's worth noting, that can still be defeated by Recon-Specialized frames. There are no competitive Recon or Counter-Recon units other than the GalLogi. Any Scout that is capable of dampening under the scanner is. Serious Questions: How does a fully dampened Scout provide Recon? Is that Recon competitive when compared to GalLogi Recon? By inserting, undetected or remaining in the periphery, undetected and providing scans. OR worthwhile verbal communications. OR hacking the unprotected. OR any one of the countless other OP TEAMWORK support actions you should generally be doing. Of course it's competitive. Especially with a GalLogi who is quite likely detectable itself. And very likely underpowered for any sort of direct confrontation against a combat-superior frame that capitalizes. I see this done and done well in PC often. Adipem Nothi wrote: :: My Face :: As of Falloff, Scouts no longer provide Recon. Any Recon you get comes from an active scanner, and no Recon competes with GalLogi Recon. The very best at Recon. The very best at Counter-Recon. Somebody find Zatara; these GalLogis are having cake and eating it too. Sounds like some Gal somewhere is eating your cake. Quit giving to them. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.
el OPERATOR Capital Acquisitions LLC Bad Intention 894	Posted - 2015.03.04 19:01:00 - [10] - Quote Adipem Nothi wrote: Meee One wrote: Adipem Nothi wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Especially with a GalLogi who is quite likely detectable itself. And very likely underpowered for any sort of direct confrontation against a combat-superior frame that capitalizes. Those arguments ring a bell ... Remember when Zatara was campaigning to change "360 Wallhacks" and "Trifectas"? Well, Scouts pointed out then just like you're pointing out now that Recon Scouts were super squishy. They were squishier than any GalLogi, and unlike the GalLogi they had to get within Fine Rifle range of a unit to scan it. Scouts also pointed out that they couldn't simultaneously run Damps and Range Extenders, so (just like your GalLogi) they were very likely being scanned if they were running scans. Unlike your GalLogi, they didn't earn WP; their unpaid job was to get close and keep the scans up by trying not to die. But they had cloak! Right? Nope. Cloak-blind went into effect before we retired the Recon Scout. You're conveniently leaving out the fact that those 360 wallhacks worked 100% of the time. Where as scanners work once every 30-45 seconds. Not while cloaked! And where are you getting 30-45 seconds? The Creodron Prox Scanner has 10 second cooldown. I use it all the time. Pretty sure scanner cooldown times are still listed in game. One GalLogi with four, 21dB scanners can keep a significant portion of a map perma-scanned. Count how many seconds pass between the "you've been scanned" messages next time you play Ambush against Nyain San. If the match lasts 300 seconds, I'll bet you'll have been scanned for 250 of 'em. I'm curious, when did Recon become a passive activity? I knew the passive detection of scouts was strong but are you saying that it was so strong you forgot how to actually do it? That CreoProx is a 28db scanner, 45-¦ sweep, 10 second light time. Plenty of wiggle room for a scout that knows it's been scanned to respond accordingly. One GalLogi with 4 of the powerful scanners available, cycling them as efficiently as possible is only able to light 180-¦ MAX (45-¦ each) for I think 40 seconds TOTAL (10 seconds lit each) AND because Active Scanning is an ACTIVE activity, unlike your previous 360-¦ 24/7 passive "wallhack" (your term) that coupled with your movement speed actually displaced moving based vehicle scanners in effectiveness, there's the scanner cycling and firing gaps which mean you never actually achieve that 180 for 40 seconds scenario. Instead it's 45-¦ worth one after the other. AND the whole time this is happeneing the scanner-using suit is occupied using the scanner and NOT participating directly in combat, ie one less GUN on the field. UNLIKE the previous scout behaviour of 360 passives lighting everything from an invisible gummybear that's simutaneously bouncing in and out of combat zones spamming re's and shotgunning people. And then coming to the forums to tell people they need better "situational awareness". If a GalLogi is getting you down, gtfo the forums and go kill him. Anything else is a waste of everybody's time. Open-Beta Vet. Drunk Night Tree Burner. This is my Main and Original. DUST514 is WARFARE, not WAR-FAIR.