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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
483
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
I am sure this has been brought up before, perhaps since before i even began playing Dust, but here goes.
Diminishing Returns
This is something that governs Eve with an iron fist. Everything gets less and less for more and more. You never get a huge benefit progressing through tiers, only culmination of negligible bonuses that amount to whatever advantage that may be.
Basic -- Adv. -- Proto.
100% -- 105% -- 109%
I am proposing that any piece of advanced gear be only 5% better than it's basic counterpart, and any prototype gear be only 9% better than it's basic counterpart. I don't care if we keep proto as it is now, then buff basic and advanced, or go the other way around. Diminishing Returns is how we can fix many of the combined issues that are on the table right now.
We see a lot of talk about meta level lock out and proto stomping and reducing squad sizes and team deployment.. etc.. All of this is tied to trying to improve the gaming experience in Dust and avoid one sided or unchallenging battles. I don't know much about tiercide and I am not necessarily advocating it. However we need to apply a heavier hand of "Diminishing Returns" to the progression system in Dust514.
Since we have tiercided the ranges on weapons, I feel like they almost fit this philosophy perfectly. Even Prototype weapons are only negligibly better than basic. This is NOT the case with the other Modules in the game, nor is it the case with the suits in the game. |
Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
484
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
EXAMPLES:
Shield Extender
Proto: 66HP (current)
Adv.: 63HP (96% of proto)
Basic: 60HP (91% of proto)
Armor Plate
Proto: 135HP (current)
Adv.: 130HP (96%)
Basic: 123HP (91%)
Precision Enhancer
Proto: 20% (current)
Adv.: 19.2% (96%)
Basic: 18.2 (91%)
etc...
These are just examples, perhaps tweaking based on meta-game would be necessary. I am just trying to get the idea across that there should be much higher "diminishing returns" on the progression through dust. Please take it with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind that in these examples I use proto gear as the baseline because the current meta is balanced by Rattati based on proto gear, as far as I know. The reverse could be done as well. |
Breakin Stuff
Goonfeet
Special Planetary Emergency Response Group
7059
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
It's easier to balance from the top down.
If you set the absolute top limit and work down it sucks a lot less.
AV
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Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4892
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
What you're saying is sound in concept, however...it's not a direct translating between EVE and Dust, and I don't think anyone would use Proto in the case of your examples. The additional cost of proto in order to gain 6HP over standard? I know they're just examples, but even if you tweak those values, the cost/benefit ratio is not attractive. Honestly if we're going to push to bring up the STD and ADV items to be closer with Proto, let's start with normalizing slots so that all suits have the same number of slots (within their class/race obviously) and then evaluate if we need to start messing with the modules themselves.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
484
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:It's easier to balance from the top down.
If you set the absolute top limit and work down it sucks a lot less.
Good point, I left some examples in the second post that go top down. I agree with you. I will also edit the original post to be top down.
Pokey Dravon wrote:What you're saying is sound in concept, however...it's not a direct translating between EVE and Dust, and I don't think anyone would use Proto in the case of your examples. The additional cost of proto in order to gain 6HP over standard? I know they're just examples, but even if you tweak those values, the cost/benefit ratio is not attractive. Honestly if we're going to push to bring up the STD and ADV items to be closer with Proto, let's start with normalizing slots so that all suits have the same number of slots (within their class/race obviously) and then evaluate if we need to start messing with the modules themselves.
Reducing the difference between suits was implied as well, so we already agree on all that.
As for "no one would use proto" in the competitive atmosphere of Dust people will and they already do ! Look at our weapons. People are using Proto weapons even though they are a measily 5% better than Advanced, and Advanced are 5% better than Basic (this is in the case of rifles, I double checked with the progression of the standard assault rifle). |
Pokey Dravon
OSG Planetary Operations
Covert Intervention
4892
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Posted - 2015.02.09 22:43:00 -
[6] - Quote
Again what you're saying is true that there is an obvious advantage to more HP even if its a small amount, and Im not disagreeing with squashing the numbers closer together, but I think 5% is a bit too small.
Also something that may be worth noting as food for thought, but Skills in EVE typically offer a much larger benefit than they do in Dust, turrets being a good example of 25% more damage and 10% more fire rate in EVE with operation/proficiency, whereas in Dust we only get 15% damage on shields or armor. That being said, differences in power in EVE is more centric on skills, whereas Dust puts far more emphasis on the modules themselves. Not saying one is better than the other, but it is an important difference to note.
"That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
Dust514 // Podcast
www.biomassed.net
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
486
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Posted - 2015.02.09 23:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
Great points ! |
tritan abbattere
DBAG CORE
28
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Posted - 2015.02.10 01:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
TBH i think tiers should not be improvements over all but rather improvements towards a certain role. We kinda have this. Going from a medium frame to logistics. so everyone could have access to basic logi suit which has barely any bonus for logi but has 2-4 equipment slots. Then you skill into more and you get a bonus toward your logistical role of repping stacked from the old.
Example:
Minmatar logi
Basic logi gets a bonus to repair range.
Advance logi get the bonus Basic skills and the the advanced skills of increased repair amount.
Proto logi gets a 0.4+ target locks for the rep tool per level. (level 5 you gain 2 extra locks)
Caldari assualt
Basic assault would get a bonus to reload speed.
Advanced get a bonus to recoil reduction + basic bonus
Proto gets a bonus to Range + advanced and basic
Galente Scout
Basic gets a bonus to cloak PG/CPU reducion per level
Advance gets a bonus to sensor damps per level with basic stacking on this.
Proto gets a bonus to armor HP regen 0.25 per second. with both advanced and basic stacking on top of this
so on and so forth. You gaining advantages but not in a direct way. you will have to know how to implement this into the battle and if it is worth it. In stomps Having a proto assault may not be worth it if your in a city but if your a sniper proto might be good for you for extra range.
Scout you may need that health regen if your doing hit and run in rapid succession but if your just taking out high valued targets you may just need the advanced for stealth.
Proto logi only help if you have a armor squad sticking together but advance is only needed if your repping a heavy.
As for modules i don't think you could apply this to them as well. There very primitive in what they do. give you more HP , give you more damage, give you better passive scans. but you could have them give more downsides or downsides like armmor modules do. The slow speed for more HP is a decent trade off. passive scan modules your give up Direct combat capability for awareness. But theirs a passive trade off when you don't pick a Scan module for a HP module that stealth scout can kill your squad or keep them distracted and paranoid. So this in its self is a Trade off.
But im not sure you need to look at modules because when you take up a slot on a suit thats a slot you can get any other befit from. so putting a ferro scale there gives you maybe 2 extra bullet impacts before you die with not lose but you can't gain extra passive scan range or armor regen from that slot. Complex Armor Pltes has a downside of speed. you maybe gain 3-4 bullets from it but you lose the ability to get into cover as fast. Its all about knowing what your suit is cable of when you put those modules on.
Now the ideas i posted above would allow for specialization and not to much gain. And you could remove some slots as you progress or not stack the old basic and/or advanced to the proto. you could also have varriants that start the bonuses in different order. so maybe assault variant for caldari gets a bonus to range first. which makes the battle field more interesting. With this setup your getting 1 extra benefit for increase in price that scales faster then the benefits. But in some situations those benefits would be worth the price.
This could also allow for skills to get you into basic variants faster. becuase the basic gallente medium skill book could get you skilled into basic logi and basic assault right away.
someone posted a very similar if not same idea at this thread and its child threads.
Link to forum post
Pokey Dravon wrote:Again what you're saying is true that there is an obvious advantage to more HP even if its a small amount, and Im not disagreeing with squashing the numbers closer together, but I think 5% is a bit too small.
Also something that may be worth noting as food for thought, but Skills in EVE typically offer a much larger benefit than they do in Dust, turrets being a good example of 25% more damage and 10% more fire rate in EVE with operation/proficiency, whereas in Dust we only get 15% damage on shields or armor. That being said, differences in power in EVE is more centric on skills, whereas Dust puts far more emphasis on the modules themselves. Not saying one is better than the other, but it is an important difference to note.
Because of this the bonuses may need to affect the modules directly rather then the suit more so but this is me mainly thinking out loud what could help this game and the changes im suggesting are quite a big one at that. So idk if it fits well into dust or not because its more focus around modules rather then skills points. its hard to say from my point of view as im partially biased towards this idea and input from others would help.
I am the all mighty Tritan. Fear me for I am a MassHole
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
501
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Posted - 2015.02.24 18:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Some great points Tritan. I would also like to see more sidegrades and I think it's a worthy endeavor. I'd also love to see roleless "frames" become more useful. |
killertojo42
KnightKiller's inc.
160
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Posted - 2015.02.24 19:05:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kaeru Nayiri wrote:Some great points Tritan. I would also like to see more sidegrades and I think it's a worthy endeavor. I'd also love to see roleless "frames" become more useful.
Minmataar medium frame MK.0 = 2 complex damage mods 2 complex shield extenders 1 complex shield energizer 1 complex shield energizer 1 complex regulator a kincat and then put a scrambler rifle, that's how you get use out of a roleless frame and because it's cheaper it's slightly spammable
Because both of us dying as I'm in my nomad BPO is to my benefit
Rank 10 winmataar
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Talos Vagheitan
Ancient Exiles.
1024
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Posted - 2015.02.24 19:07:00 -
[11] - Quote
Interesting idea. Basically, bring the tiers closer together in terms of performance, and leave prices the same?
Can't say if I'm totally for or against, but I'm not sure this would have even a noticeable impact on game balance. I don't think gear is as big a factor as many think.
When AE was active, we did a few 'basic-gear' stomps just to show that it wasn't all about the proto.
Think about this scenario: If every single player in Dust were forced to wear the exact same loadout, do you think the game would be automatically balanced? Do you think Nyain San would start losing ambush? I don't. I think they'd stomp just the same because they're good players who are coordinating.
It's more the imbalance between super hardcore squads and filthy casual blues. Squads who are good players, know the game, coordinate, use teamwork (and yes, also have better gear) going up against a bunch of solo players.
Dust isn't an arena shooter. Being a skilled slayer is useless if your team isn't performing the other roles needed to win the match.
Who cares what some sniper has to say.
CCP, let's push for the license of Dust/Legion on both current Gen consoles!
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Kaeru Nayiri
Ready to Play
502
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Posted - 2015.02.24 20:28:00 -
[12] - Quote
Talos Vagheitan wrote:
[...]
Think about this scenario: If every single player in Dust were forced to wear the exact same loadout, do you think the game would be automatically balanced? Do you think Nyain San would start losing ambush? I don't. I think they'd stomp just the same because they're good players who are coordinating.
[...]
I agree with you completely on this. I am hoping others catch on as well. We mustn't continue to find excuses with gear and team building.
Overall game balance would remain the same, though people fighting in lower tier gear will feel like they have a much stronger chance of winning. Whether that perception is true or not doesn't matter. Right now people have complained enough about stomps and are willing to blame gear enough that meta level lock outs are actually on the road map. I am proposing this as a type of alternative.
Most balance patches have focused on performance at prototype level, which is a bit crude but effective. If we give a bit more power to the lower tiers, that balance will not change, you are absolutely correct. |
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