This thread will serve as a place to focus the raid feedback in regard to CCP Rattati's PC proposal here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=188510

Please post your proposals regarding raiding below and any links you think are applicable as well.

Some of the most important issues (please feel free to point out others):

WHEN?

When can a district be raided?
I am leaning towards using a window of opportunity method.
We give raiders a 1~2 hr before and after window to attack a district during its main attack window.

HOW?

How are districts raided is it an ambush, 3 point skirmish, etc.?
I think a ambush would work ok (simulating the raiders murdering everyone while they are trying to get their pants on).
Larger raids should be either dom or 3 point.

WHAT?

What is the objective of a raid? Is it just salvage and ISK from gear destruction or do raids have an impact on the district somehow?

I would go with both say a district loses 25% production capacity (damaging infrastructure) you could determine this by using raid size as a determining factor.

What are the costs of a raid for the defender and attacker in terms of Command Points Etc?

I think it should cost 10~20% of a raiders CP to commence low level raids the more destructive raids should cost 20~30% of their CP. Defenders should be allowed to defend for free (CP). If for some reason defenders cannot be there it cost them the CP cost of the raid.

WHO?

Who can do a raid? What level does the Corporate Command need to be? Can ringers be used?

Raid Mechanics
The attacker should not need a district to launch an attack from i suppose this is self explanatory but it needs said. Removing that gap gives everyone the opportunity to perform this action. CP cost should be proportional to actually sending an attack to take a district, for corps that own land, and be substantially less for corps that do not. This gives an endgame for corps that do not wish to participate in PC but rather be a pirate type corporation. This makes it more difficult for a corp in PC to try to manage raiding with the other CP actions. As much as i want this to be a big battle a raid, as opposed to a battle, is a small scale event and should be handled as such. 6v6 or 8v8 in a domination type match would be ideal for a raid.
Battles should also have no clone limit and play until the MCC is destroyed to allow sides to use as many resources as possible/wanted to achieve victory. A vehicle cap should also be in place of 1 major vehicle HAV/ADS and 1 minor Vehicle LAV/DS. This makes the match much more tactical and prevents a corporation from deploying 6 tanks to hold the one point.
A 1 minute warning should be all a corporation receives and this 1 minutes can be within 1 hour of your timer for example 0.H has a district timer set at 01:00 A raid can happen at 00:01-02:01 if the raid is placed at 00:00 or at 2:00. This is a perfect raid style timer. Making your opposition scramble to find people not currently deployed to defend against the raid. The War Barge should also only be 1 minute long. Many may disagree with this short of a warning but a raid should not give you advance warning because with greater then 2 minutes i can get the 6-8 of the best 0.H players into this battle as if we knew it was going to happen the whole time. Even with 2 minutes it will still be relatively easy to field a team to fight those battles.
I also believe multiple raids by different corporations on even the same district should be allowed. Doing so would cause those small elite corps like 0uter.Heaven the inability to field the players necessary to prevent all raids from being successful and keep us out of pubs where we destroy the hopes of many players. Since raids cost CP this makes corps that have districts less able to Send Attacks, Sell Clones, Move Clones, Change Timers and (if anyone read my previous thread) Change Map Layout.

Raid Benefits
Raids need to have great incentive for the competitive player base not currently in PC to use their CP to do raids. So in light of that statement i believe

A successful Raiding Corporation should receive PC style payouts (ISK and Salvage) AND massively increased chance for random officer gear drops. Should the match result in a no show by the defending corporation there needs to be a severe penalty either through isk or CP I currently don't know how to penalize and need help from the CPM's and CCP to make it worthwhile to at least provide a resistance or for the attackers to stay through a noshow. This further takes competitive players from public matches and gives the new players a chance to love the game.

A successful Raided Corporation will receive NO isk, Enemy Salvage and a Massively increased chance for random officer gear drops. The no isk part is essential as this makes the defending corporation want to be as efficient as possible. If say 0.H gets raided by P.E we will want to attempt to win the match with minimal casualties due to the isk inefficiency possibility. However if officer gear is more circulated we will finally see them used in PC due to the ability to have a reliable way to earn more.

Can you post a link with all of our posts on previous thread plz. So they can see all of our constrictive discussion.

It might be a bit messy but I'll try. If you can summarize your previous points or bullet point them it would be good.

All very interesting suggestions.

My theory. To make raids much more attainable on both side...woukd be to make raids only be 8 attackers and 8 defenders.

Make the map always a 4 point map.

Reasons why. Raids are lightning fast. They hit you hard. The enemy wouldn't form a large army to do a raid. It would be seen. Instead the pick the best of the best. The small elite raiders. And they hit.

The defender...When sensing a battle always prepares. They man the walls and have their army ready to repel. In a raid. It may be tough for every corp...even large corps...more so for the smaller corps to get 16 players to go defend it. 8 tho is very manageable.

Or as we see now in PC(myself as guilty party) included...The 16 defenders will be picked not from your corp...but from who ever you can scramble.

raids need to be small party's. Please make them 8 vs 8. Attacker has the advantage of selecting the best 8 and preparing before they attack. Defender needs the benefit of the doubt that they can field 8 players aswell. 16 may be very tough for small corps.


Other than that..If you successfully defend a raid...your district should be free from being raided for a locked period of time but not locked from being hit with real attack. When a district gets hit by a real attack it should cease all production of goo. This prevents people from locking them selves with alt corps and cashing in on goo.

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The idea is to promote fights correct? If you want fights. Make raids 8 vs 8. Both teams can manage finding 8. For a raid and 8 for the defense.

Also. Make raids...corp only. Attack and defense. This will promote using your own guys. It will also prevent well established large groups from forming raiding party's based off their elite friends. Make it corp exclusive.

Yes. Defenders with land...will need to recruit. And will stop alt corps from just using alts to raid and bringing in their real corp as ringers.

8 vs 8. Way to go with raids.

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Can raids be a dom or an ambush. It should be about inflicting clone damage. Smash and grab. 8V8 dom or ambush woukd be an exciting change.

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8v8. My answers final lol.

Would be good for both sides.

Make it 100 clones. If the defender no shows easy penalty. They lose a hundred clones on their districts. This will weakened their defence against a real attack.

Point of raid. Strategic strike.

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Reason why I believe raids are suppose to be exclusive to Corp members..... because if not. This is going to be easy for us to form 16 elite players....not launch real attacks for pc..watch weak corps come online. Hit them. Split profit. Don't even launch real attacks ever. Farm on our districts. Or launch vs each other. Because raids more profit. I don't want that. Corp exclusive means we include our corps in our attacks. ..and makes it so weak corps don't get raided by the elites farming them

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In reference to 16v16 raid battles

Do you not see the huge issue here. You are forcing the fcs to be online at all times during their districts being online. Fcs control 16 players. With help of squad leaders. This will be a mess to defend vs 16. Unless you are in a very large and elite corp.

But it's very easy for us to form 16 elite players. And watch and wait for districts to hit.

defender has no advantage. 8v8. Corp exclusive. Prevents us farming corps.

trust me. I know. I am not concerned for my corp. Right now if this change is implemented. I will hold 4 districts. And not attack with them. Or attack friends for fun battles. I will dedicate our time to what we will call Raid Farming. We will pillage everyone using 16 elites. The small corps use to be able to counter this. Because they had time to prepare. Now. They won't. They will be slaughtered. I do not want this because I care about the game. This will greatly benefit me.

8V8. Corp exclusive. Limits the noon farming

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In reference to no show raids forcing districts to become unoccupied.

Horrible idea. No. Raids are for resources. Not occupation. District shouldn't be effected.

This is not promoting good fights this is promoting noob farming.

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What is going to happen point blank. Is Planetary conquest will turn into....no conquest. Just launching 200 clones for a fun competitive fight. Then we all form raiding parties and pillage noobs.

Because it will find out fun pc fights. We will farm you.

This is a bad idea. Unless it's 8v8 and corp exclusive. So teams can defend vs us.

We will focus purely on raid ddefences. Ans farm

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Hence Corp exclusive. It is imperative. Defends and attacks. Corp exclusive.

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Farms of resource yes. Clones no

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In reference to ringers in raids.

Kane. Roman837 the CEO will thrive on this change. We will farm everyone via raids. My corp will do great given our connections.

Dan the dude who plays on Roman837. Sees this as a bad idea. And will promote huge coalitions of farming. We will fight each other in pc for the thrill of competition. Shake hands..then go to our raiding chat. Check the star map for people outside our "friend zone" and raid them.

Because as you all have pointed out there is no reason for us to go own much land. So why try and take land. When you and your corps can own that land. And through your hard work...fund us.

Sad. But very true

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No more room for the other posts you lazy *******

Raid Mechanics
The attacker should not need a district to launch an attack from i suppose this is self explanatory but it needs said. Removing that gap gives everyone the opportunity to perform this action. CP cost should be proportional to actually sending an attack to take a district, for corps that own land, and be substantially less for corps that do not. This gives an endgame for corps that do not wish to participate in PC but rather be a pirate type corporation. This makes it more difficult for a corp in PC to try to manage raiding with the other CP actions. As much as i want this to be a big battle a raid, as opposed to a battle, is a small scale event and should be handled as such. 6v6 or 8v8 in a domination type match would be ideal for a raid.
Battles should also have no clone limit and play until the MCC is destroyed to allow sides to use as many resources as possible/wanted to achieve victory. A vehicle cap should also be in place of 1 major vehicle HAV/ADS and 1 minor Vehicle LAV/DS. This makes the match much more tactical and prevents a corporation from deploying 6 tanks to hold the one point.
A 1 minute warning should be all a corporation receives and this 1 minutes can be within 1 hour of your timer for example 0.H has a district timer set at 01:00 A raid can happen at 00:01-02:01 if the raid is placed at 00:00 or at 2:00. This is a perfect raid style timer. Making your opposition scramble to find people not currently deployed to defend against the raid. The War Barge should also only be 1 minute long. Many may disagree with this short of a warning but a raid should not give you advance warning because with greater then 2 minutes i can get the 6-8 of the best 0.H players into this battle as if we knew it was going to happen the whole time. Even with 2 minutes it will still be relatively easy to field a team to fight those battles.
I also believe multiple raids by different corporations on even the same district should be allowed. Doing so would cause those small elite corps like 0uter.Heaven the inability to field the players necessary to prevent all raids from being successful and keep us out of pubs where we destroy the hopes of many players. Since raids cost CP this makes corps that have districts less able to Send Attacks, Sell Clones, Move Clones, Change Timers and (if anyone read my previous thread) Change Map Layout.

Raid Benefits
Raids need to have great incentive for the competitive player base not currently in PC to use their CP to do raids. So in light of that statement i believe

A successful Raiding Corporation should receive PC style payouts (ISK and Salvage) AND massively increased chance for random officer gear drops. Should the match result in a no show by the defending corporation there needs to be a severe penalty either through isk or CP I currently don't know how to penalize and need help from the CPM's and CCP to make it worthwhile to at least provide a resistance or for the attackers to stay through a noshow. This further takes competitive players from public matches and gives the new players a chance to love the game.

A successful Raided Corporation will receive NO isk, Enemy Salvage and a Massively increased chance for random officer gear drops. The no isk part is essential as this makes the defending corporation want to be as efficient as possible. If say 0.H gets raided by P.E we will want to attempt to win the match with minimal casualties due to the isk inefficiency possibility. However if officer gear is more circulated we will finally see them used in PC due to the ability to have a reliable way to earn more.

I think allowing raids to happen 24 hours will quickly become frustrating for corporations being attacked by people on the other side of the world, and vice versa. It would lead to many attacks happening against corps that are likely asleep, and even if raid defense was open to alliance members, you would likely see massive holes in defendable time and a lot of boring no-show battles.

I think at the least allowing corporations to set a maximum 12 hour window where the district is vulnerable to being raided. It's large enough so that the window can't be hidden at an obnoxious time and allows for surprise attacks without a clear idea of when the attack will happen, but small enough that defenders can at least assure battles will happen on their side of the clock.

I think 24 hours would be a bit much.

Some performance or activity metric could bring this down significantly. Penalizing inactive landholders, perhaps signaling a district ripe for takeover.

You're read this obviously but for those who have not:

https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=187670&find=unread

Partially where I got the maximum 12 hour metric (even though I initially wrote it for Conquest battles and not Raids). I think allowing corporations to reduce the raid window a little is fine but it should probably still be quite a bit larger than an hour. Perhaps at max activity level Raid window can be brought down to 8-6 hours and Conquest down to 1.

Raids should yield more for attacks against the better corps... Both corp win/loss and K/d should come into play.

District Count / Corp Member <--- easily fudged

Daily Missions Completed <--- not-so-easily fudged
Daily Clone Sales <--- not-so-easily fudged

This thread will serve as a place to focus the raid feedback in regard to CCP Rattati's PC proposal here: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=188510






Please post your proposals, feedback, and ideas regarding raiding below and any links you think are applicable as well.

Some of the most important issues (please feel free to point out others):

WHEN?

When can a district be raided?

HOW?

How are districts raided? Is it an ambush, 3 point skirmish, etc.?

WHAT?

What is the objective of a raid? Is it just salvage and ISK from gear destruction or do raids have an impact on the district somehow?

What are the costs of a raid for the defender and attacker in terms of Command Points Etc?

WHO?

Who can do a raid? What level does the Corporate Command need to be? Can ringers be used?

A good point has been made. Raid attacks large or small need to require an MCC/CLone pack. Essentially a raid needs require the same resource build up as a normal district attack.

I actually thought that this would always be the case, but it seems other didn't think so.

Adipem,

I think you schedule of attack types works well. I don't think the core clones on a district should be affected by raiding though. Raiding being about the daily clone production would strike a good balance for Risk v Reward.

Hypothetical:
Assume that districts at maximum clone capacity generate passive Isk.

not autosell, they will be need to be managed manually, and districts cleared out so as to not lose due to over capacity production

I could be wrong, but PC 2.0's Conquest Model presently lacks incentive sufficient to justify its risk exposure. From what we know so far, most corps would favor the Raider Model. I think it likely that Rattati will "add value" to holding Districts to bring Risk/Reward into equilibrium. Hence my assumption of passive Isk.

(it very well may end up being something else of value)