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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 9 post(s) |
Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
101
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Posted - 2015.01.21 00:10:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:Dear players,
we want to talk about District Timers, in particular, the not-so-much-intended practice of safeguarding Districts into difficult timezones.
There are a few ideas already on the table, not a complete list and I expect Kain Spero to show up pretty much instantly.
Methods to reset, if we go that way
A) Randomize - all Timers will be reset to a random TZ within the allowed Begin and End settings
B) Redistribute - all Timers will be reset and fixed in a ratio that aligns with average PCU
C) Reset and allow +-X timers around the default District Timer
D) Reset and reduce the available option for Timers
E) Reset and allow incremental jumps from the default Timer, rising exponentially in ISK cost per 30 minutes.
I will add more.
Please discuss.
can we please just remove all timers from PC and give more tools for multi time zone alliances to defend districts pls?
seriously only no timers IMO will heal this PC stagnation, invigorate new corps to try PCs, invigorated to create multi time zones communities and let us at last measure the real power of corps or corporate/alliance leadership
that would also IMO just demand from every corp to take as many newbie players to join under their wings and care for those new players as it would really improve corp power output later on and with those new SP weekly caps it wont take that long
make PC a sandbox at last, where people and their ability to socialize build a community leads to reign and supreme victory in new eden planetary conquest ;)
every artificial limitation (aka timers for attack or defense) beside your ability to buy clones set up team of at least 16 man and deploy warbarges should be removed from PC for now untill we will have bigger eve dust connection
i really think this and only this would really measure the strenght of corporations and alliances (multi timezone would be a must!)
as a last note i only will add every artificial limitation aka timers is only preventing a power struggle that we could have in the game play IMO, limiting participation, creating a stale environment where small corps can hold more ground that they should (setting timers to prevent others from attacking the land that you have no real man power to defend is not a skill in the gun game type of game that dust 514 should be IMO sorry)
beside that introduce raiding districts for those "skilled" smaller corps so that they can earn the income and pillage smth
pillaged district should not have IMO 24h warning only 2 to 3 hours and should lock the district from production for a weak (debatable period)
those two mechanics plus added later on things from CCP should really invigorate and spice up PC battles IMO despite the drawbacks the positive will out weight the negative in the grand scheme of things thus making PC more competitive and demanding
please add back corp battles as well with this, standard income pub brawls for practice for newer corps
do not let those whining people in smaller corps dictate the game rules set in stone for the rest it should always be socializing and creating bigger corps then alliances and communities within the game setting the power struggle not some barriers like in this case timers on districts
nothing more nothing less cheers
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
101
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Posted - 2015.01.21 13:44:00 -
[2] - Quote
timers in any form in PC are only hindering game play
people that have few hours of play time and want to log in for some PC action are denied that form of fun only because any form of timers
if those so called "skilled vets" worry about not being able to hold a district only because there is no timer mechanic, they should just organize better within the game for alliance assistance
no one ever said that small corp or even a medium sized corp should be able to hold whole planet for them self, only with timers mechanic it is possible thus making the game stale and PC action on hold for everyone else, this is wrong direction then does more harm because bigger number of people wanting to get into PC is denied with this for the sake of smaller tight knit "skilled vets" that are and will abuse any form of timers and locks mechanic everytime (alts, district hopping, manipulation with attack windows etc.)
timers and locking mechanic is wrong at its core and will always make PC stale in any form and any time within multi time zoned game
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 15:06:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Zene Ren wrote:timers in any form in PC are only hindering game play
people that have few hours of play time and want to log in for some PC action are denied that form of fun only because any form of timers
if those so called "skilled vets" worry about not being able to hold a district only because there is no timer mechanic, they should just organize better within the game for alliance assistance
no one ever said that small corp or even a medium sized corp should be able to hold whole planet for them self, only with timers mechanic it is possible thus making the game stale and PC action on hold for everyone else, this is wrong direction then does more harm because bigger number of people wanting to get into PC is denied with this for the sake of smaller tight knit "skilled vets" that are and will abuse any form of timers and locks mechanic everytime (alts, district hopping, manipulation with attack windows etc.)
timers and locking mechanic is wrong at its core and will always make PC stale in any form and any time within multi time zoned game The funny thing is there is a contingent of PC vets that would like nothing more than to go to a completely timerless system. I think the key is to strike a balance between the two extremes of restrictive timers and timerless gameplay.
because it is the only way to do, to not prevent people in participating in PC thus making the mode accessible and active as it should be
what we have now is stale isk farm elite club and it will always be like that with timers and what we should have is 90% or 100% of SP eligible people to play PC all the time thus leaving PUBs for newbies and FW for medium advanced SP wise people
that it is why people are begging for corp battles back
why is it so hard for those elitists vets abusing mechanics of timers to open the game mode for all?!?!
everyone will benefit from that, well maybe not all because this 5% that we have now will cry i can not time lock my district because it is mine, because i won it and now it should always be mine, because my real life, because of my other hobbies, because i will lose my progress etc. etc. etc. kids logic
they are unable to understand that losing this progress for others and then fighting for it back, this activity is and should always be the dynamic for PC game mode in dust depending on power from your alliance people, numbers wise multi time zone, involved to defend it and not some silly timers mechanic shutting down the fun for other 95% of community
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 15:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
what we have now is stale isk farm elite club and it will always be like that with timers and what we should have is 90% or 100% of SP eligible people to play PC all the time thus leaving PUBs for newbies and FW for medium advanced SP wise people
that it is why people are begging for corp battles back
why is it so hard for those elitists vets abusing mechanics of timers to open the game mode for all?!?!
If you really think that most players in planetary conquest wouldn't like to see and end to the stagnation and more people in the game mode so folks can choose to be PCing most of the time I have a bridge to sell you.
man seriously i've read most of your comments about the matter, you do not need to double post this kind of stuff rather advocate for leaving the timers behind us that is what you can do
inventing a more complex "walls" as this this Pokey's forum user will only make things worse with every iteration
this needs to be an easy and straight forward mechanic, no timers at all, if you can't be online your alliance needs to have the tools to be aware that a district is in danger of attack and respond to that, nothing more nothing less
making more complex solutions will always destroy the dynamic , make this mode stale, leave most SP wise people out of it thus staying in status quo of the elite club
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 15:51:00 -
[5] - Quote
Kain Spero wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
man seriously i've read most of your comments about the matter, you do not need to double post this kind of stuff rather advocate for leaving the timers behind us that is what you can do
inventing a more complex "walls" as this this Pokey's forum user will only make things worse with every iteration
this needs to be an easy and straight forward mechanic, no timers at all, if you can't be online your alliance needs to have the tools to be aware that a district is in danger of attack and respond to that, nothing more nothing less
making more complex solutions will always destroy the dynamic , make this mode stale, leave most SP wise people out of it thus staying in status quo of the elite club
Your vision is that all organizations need to be global, have massive numbers, and be available 24/7. How is that balance towards the wide variety of groups that attempt to play this game and want to participate in planetary conquest? How does having land being taken while the owner sleeps give the system a sense of permanence?
the vision is like that because the foundations laid under Eve/dust are like that world wide, one server for all players
any other option will make the PC game mode stale with artificial boundaries
because we have multi time zone community don't we?
they don't need to be massive corporations just inter national, multi time zone alliances, eanlish is pretty common now around the world isn't it?
for small tight knit (anti social if i may say) groups there should be an option to RAID if they want to stay small and have good isk payouts and some instant PC action w/o obligations, this should be instant with 10 to 30 mins warning for defending alliance, with some penalty when the RAID is successful to hinder production from district for a time this could've stack more if more raiders want to ride this particular district
easy fix for PC and tons of fun for all, newbies have their own plays in pub matches because vets are only playing PC, medium advanced SP guys play FW as a prelude to PC, PC crowd is not locked from their primarily activity by some artificial (stupid IMO) boundaries and the game is on!
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 16:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
i have to repeat any kind of timers and districts control from corp will only result in stale PC and vets playing FW or pubs because their primary activity is locked for the time being
timers and locks are a bad core mechanic that needs to disappear
those people that want to be entitled to have a district and are anti social thus not in multi time zone alliance should not be able to defend the district or play 24/7
if you want to control a district and earn it while defending it with your alliance get a multi time zone alliance fro district security
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 16:39:00 -
[7] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Zene Ren wrote:i have to repeat any kind of timers and districts control from corp will only result in stale PC and vets playing FW or pubs because their primary activity is locked for the time being
timers and locks are a bad core mechanic that needs to disappear
those people that want to be entitled to have a district and are anti social thus not in multi time zone alliance should not be able to defend the district or play 24/7
if you want to control a district and earn it while defending it with your alliance get a multi time zone alliance fro district security There's already a game for that. It's called Planetside 2. There has to be someway to manage it to make the landholding worthwhile. Having a window timer that's up-gradable to get a window of say 2 hours would be sufficient to create the gameplay you'd like to see. An elite corp would probably find it worthwhile to upgrade their districts for the smallest windows possible, but a large corp full of low to medium skill players would probably just leave it at 4-8 hours for example. During those windows battles would spin up nearly instantly. I don't think this is as critical if you have a raid mechanic that I described above.
no
PS2 has 3 factions and and only few persistant maps thus it fails at "land holding"
we have corps and alliance and one big server for whole world unlike PS2 the whole community in one place
we have connection to eve that should be deepen later so that pilots needs to weeken the 1st defense and after that mercs come in
we have more maps and places that fight can be done and as it was planned PC should be an equivalent of previous corp battles for all
everybody has to have a chance to attack when online ATM and alliance security needs to be informed and ready for defence
it is critical to rid off all timers for people that only want to do PC while online, why hurt 95% of community when this 5% want to be elite and keep locks on "their" land
ity should be not possible for one small corp with elite players to keep the rest in check because of lock(artificial and stupid mechanic IMO) and keep the rest from playing their primarily game mode by doing so
PC needs to be open for everybody 24/7 or else we are back at status quo, broken game mode that hand full plays while rest needs to play FW or proto stomp pubs
this needs to end
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Ghostt Shadoww wrote:
You can't wake up and defend. Then that's your problem ...
For me its more like, I'm not going to leave my job to do a PC match. If my corp is working and we always get attacked while we're all at work, are we just screwed until the weekend? Would that not encourage you to recruit players to cover for you? With each District you add, you should be adding coverage /garrisons to your corporation. As Jaysyn said it would encourage that because it's necessary. But as I pointed out before, if you allow attackers to attack whenever they want, you're looking at any point in a 24 hour window. Sure people can wake up early to do a PC match, but if the other side is doing it in a comfortable afternoon and you're defending at 4AM, that's not sustainable. So you really have to go under the assumption of what is possible in the long rune. So if we say the average person can devote 8 hours to playing the game in a sustainable fashion, that means you need 16 guys for every 8 hours. You can recruit others to cover the empty time, so 2 more teams of 16 for a grand total of 48 players to defend a single district. 48 players needed for a single district seems excessive to me. Hell I think 8 hours might be a little much to expect, if people get off at 6PM and play till mightnight, that's only 6 hours for each group which would push the total needed players to 64). There is also the issue of imbalance between regions in that there are far more NA players than Oceania and I imagine Europe lands somewhere in the middle. So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot. As an aside, I'll admit that I'm not Uber Hardcore like some of the guys here. And while I'm willing to make some changes every once in a while, you have to remember that at the end of the day this is still a video game. Video games are supposed to be fun, and if I have to literally change my lifestyle, sleep, or work schedule so I can play the game....the fun starts to quickly evaporate and it turns into a chore.
just make multi time zone alliance you don't have to defend 24/7 alliance security is for that
people like you always think it seems my district only i have to defend it that is bad and only will hinder the game for others that want a shot at PC
you got friends outside of corp or alliances they are called mercs for a reason need two more because you're short hire them
if the attack is on the asia time zone let asia time zone corp from your alliance to handle it simple as that
if some one will take most oceania players so what man? it is politics and new eden life is harsh one time you lose one time you winn the community will balance it self w/o any artificial boundaries that are keeping others from playing their primarly game mode when they are online
seriously we need to stop with this elite approach and let the community dictate the power struggle alliances and corps not some timers and lock, we have one universe for that
no one demands for you to change your life style but still you're trying to be special not everything suppose to rely on only your or your corp shoulders, get into multi time zone alliance and problem solved
i have to repeat
more timers or any iteration of them will only result in stale game play and vets ruining noobs life in the game that will not grow because newbies will not have will to continue and grow to vets
PC should be dynamic and active like corp battles were and vets have to play it 24/7 w/o locks or the status quo will stay as it is
and that is small community because people needs time to grow in this game and they will not grow because vets have noting to do(locked districts) and will farm newbs in pub matches or q sync for them or play FW while wanting to play PC only
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:14:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:CCP Rattati wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Ghostt Shadoww wrote:
You can't wake up and defend. Then that's your problem ...
For me its more like, I'm not going to leave my job to do a PC match. If my corp is working and we always get attacked while we're all at work, are we just screwed until the weekend? Would that not encourage you to recruit players to cover for you? With each District you add, you should be adding coverage /garrisons to your corporation. As Jaysyn said it would encourage that because it's necessary. But as I pointed out before, if you allow attackers to attack whenever they want, you're looking at any point in a 24 hour window. Sure people can wake up early to do a PC match, but if the other side is doing it in a comfortable afternoon and you're defending at 4AM, that's not sustainable. So you really have to go under the assumption of what is possible in the long rune. So if we say the average person can devote 8 hours to playing the game in a sustainable fashion, that means you need 16 guys for every 8 hours. You can recruit others to cover the empty time, so 2 more teams of 16 for a grand total of 48 players to defend a single district. 48 players needed for a single district seems excessive to me. Hell I think 8 hours might be a little much to expect, if people get off at 6PM and play till mightnight, that's only 6 hours for each group which would push the total needed players to 64). There is also the issue of imbalance between regions in that there are far more NA players than Oceania and I imagine Europe lands somewhere in the middle. So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot. As an aside, I'll admit that I'm not Uber Hardcore like some of the guys here. And while I'm willing to make some changes every once in a while, you have to remember that at the end of the day this is still a video game. Video games are supposed to be fun, and if I have to literally change my lifestyle, sleep, or work schedule so I can play the game....the fun starts to quickly evaporate and it turns into a chore. If you can attack instantly anytime the districts just won't matter. I can only assume that you'd need some start up ISK to even enter the fray. If your district was lost the same day you took it while you were asleep I think people would lose interest pretty quick. It would be no different than the frustration corps felt when they thought they were fighting Team X and find 15 Team Players when they enter the warbarge, except they'd log in and see they had nothing. I can picture the CEO saying, well **** that. I can tell you with 100% certainty that PC corps now aren't going to recruit 500 players to maintain their holdings. They'll just turn on their PS4 and play PS2.
and this is the elite mentality i was refering to "PC corps only don't want" everyone needs to have a chance not only 5% as it is now
there will be no need for 500 players too, from where do you guys take those numbers, no alliance should have that many districts
again man i am not a seer or fortune teller but i know that 5% should not dictate or discurage 95% from participating in PC
because they can not handle 24/7 defence so what if you lose some because your alliance could not defend all
and after that not only will go on holidays those attackers will have them too
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:19:00 -
[10] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:
What you propose won't cause people to enter alliances. It would cause all the serious players to quit and the vacuum would be filled by people who can't spell grabbing people out of local chat.
man seriously you behave like a fortune teller
how do you know that all would leave or that new players will not be able to seriously talking about self entitlement nvm mind though
community newbs and vets would control that after some time the community playing community would balance itself also as in every sandbox game the community always balance it self w/o any issue
those artificial boundaries (timers in this case) are what makes imbalance
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
i can tell you guys one thing for sure we had timers mechanic till now did it worked?
did a variations of it worked?
instead of game mode for all vets we have elite club that most people within even tell it does not work and every variation will not
i am only saying
most vets do stomp newbs because they are locked off from the game mode they want to play only
do not worry about holding the districts for now open the flood gates let everybody who wants to play it as a focused mode play it and then just do minor tweaks with penalties or benefits after that when we will have data what needs to be done
"I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle."
we got that because of those locks and abusing mechanics constantly needing tweaks instead of adding new things
still if there is not that many of those then why are you even mentioning the threat of being attacked constantly at 4 am or some other not good for you hours? ( on a side note your arguments are starting to contradict each other)
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
pokey, "So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot."
so what you will have at least what to do battling PC to reclaim them in your preferred time zone and the"wheel will be constantly turning"
PC guys will have constant PC, newbs will have peace in public contracts w/o proto stompers and advanced SP people will have FW where is harm in that?
i can't believe that only the honor of those PC vet elite group will be damaged a bit because they would have to reclaim lost districts but guess what PC will be open and the game mode everybody vet wants to be in will be used
in time as i said community will balance itself out with how many districts you can control and hold for longer as in every open sandbox environment
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren, you didn't fully read everything I said since I already addressed your counterpoints in the original post. Thor Odinson42 wrote:
If you can attack instantly anytime the districts just won't matter. I can only assume that you'd need some start up ISK to even enter the fray. If your district was lost the same day you took it while you were asleep I think people would lose interest pretty quick. It would be no different than the frustration corps felt when they thought they were fighting Team X and find 15 Team Players when they enter the warbarge, except they'd log in and see they had nothing. I can picture the CEO saying, well **** that.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that PC corps now aren't going to recruit 500 players to maintain their holdings. They'll just turn on their PS4 and play PS2.
My point exactly. Even with a full day's notice, being attacked any time of the day is going to quickly cause issues. If we had an even distribution of players around the world it would be less of an issue, but which certain regions have small player bases that tend to clump into singular groups, whoever grabs those groups first is going to dominate. What you'll end up with is a handful of alliances dominating PC because they hold all of the players from a certain region, allowing them to freely take any district because the defenders will simply be unable to find anyone to recruit in those time zones. I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle. To point out where he's coming from here Zene. No new to PC corps would be able to take anything from the sure to pop up super alliance during the North American prime times. Their only hope would be to hit them during Euro, Asian, or Australian prime times. But they'd quickly find out that the super alliance had locked up all the talent in that timezone as well. If CCP completely removed timers one of two things would happen: 1) ALL of the current PC community would band together to prevent the "wake up and everything is gone" scenario OR 2) CCP's most dedicated, highest spending clientele would exit the building and give up the last of the hope they had left.
i took that under consideration Thor but still PC will be open for others to try and play that mode only, we can not say that everybody will consolidate to "rule them all" but the game mode will be there and underdogs will have a constant shot at playing PC
where's harm in that for a start, later we can tweak that but w/o those forsaken timers and locking ready to be abused mechanic
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
103
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:
If it's a constant gain and loss of districts you'd never be able to recoup your ISK investment.
but the wheel for everybody that wants to participate in PC when he is online will be turning and that is what should be the point of PC IMO
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
104
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Posted - 2015.01.21 17:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Zene Ren wrote:Thor Odinson42 wrote:
What you propose won't cause people to enter alliances. It would cause all the serious players to quit and the vacuum would be filled by people who can't spell grabbing people out of local chat.
man seriously you behave like a fortune teller how do you know that all would leave or that new players will not be able to, seriously talking about self entitlement nvm mind though... community newbs and vets would control that after some time the community playing the game would balance itself also as in every sandbox game the community always balance it self w/o any issue those artificial boundaries (timers in this case) are what makes imbalance You think the best players in the game that have spent nearly 2 years fighting in PC feel entitled? I guess I'd have to agree. I'm sure all of null sec in Eve would feel pretty entitled and would act negatively to say the least if they made mining ships, ratting ships, and mobile siphon units invincible. That's basically the same thing right? Giving the casual players the ability to completely **** all over the sandbox they've worked to build. I'd rather CCP not go from one extreme to another.
there are no rules in null sec man...
that is why it is called null sec no timers and locks
only community owning particular system amt with man power and time availability
so why should we have rules in our null sec our timers and locks?!?!
it should be community power struggle not artificial boundaries...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
105
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:i can tell you guys one thing for sure we had timers mechanic till now did it worked?
did a variations of it worked?
instead of game mode for all vets we have elite club that most people within even tell it does not work and every variation will not
i am only saying
most vets do stomp newbs because they are locked off from the game mode they want to play only
do not worry about holding the districts for now open the flood gates let everybody who wants to play it as a focused mode play it and then just do minor tweaks with penalties or benefits after that when we will have data what needs to be done
"I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle."
we got that because of those locks and abusing mechanics constantly needing tweaks instead of adding new things
still if there is not that many of those then why are you even mentioning the threat of being attacked constantly at 4 am or some other not good for you hours? ( on a side note your arguments are starting to contradict each other) We never had a real variant on timers, only how end of battle results would proc to help mitigate the district locking. No major or substantial change was made to the way timers worked. You're running under the assumption that any sort of timer whatsoever will have the same results but that thought process is misguided. I'm not advocating for some elite club, I'm advocating that a corporation shouldn't just automatically win because it's in a time zone the other side can't defend against. And I'm not contradicting myself. If a single Japanese corp can casually launch PC matches during the afternoon against a NA corporation at some god awful hour in the morning, they can keep those attacks up forever and do so without breaking a sweat, whereas the NA corp will burn out quickly because of ****** times. Ok so the NA corp has to recruit a Japanese corp to fight the Japanese....but what do they do if all of the Japanese Corps are already taken? Additionally you'll come back with "Well the Americans can just attack back at a time that works for them and the Japanese will be in the same boat!" but heres the deal. Due to the LARGE spready in player count, a Japanese corp will NEVER have a hard time finding a NA alliance to defend for them becuase there are a lot of NA groups. However a NA Alliance will struggle to find a Japanese corp for their alliance. Even if we assume there are 2 NA alliances for every Oceanic corporation, that means that half the alliances will be unable to defend the Oceanic time slot. Does that seem right to you? So what choice do they have? THey'll be forced to just merge with another alliance, ok so now we have just a small handful of Super Alliances, and their numbers will basically be entirely dictated by the number of separate group available in odd time regions. And you're not really correct, there were indeed more Oceanic groups before PC went to ****, but there was never even close an even distribution of players globally, so this problem would have persisted anyways. Hell the Oceanic server was shut down BECAUSE there were so few players on it. No amount of increased activity will avoid this issue unless the global player population is brought up to be nearly even.
they will struggle to get other time zone corps but it will not be impossible like it is now with any form of timers and locks
yes you 're contradicting a bit because you aver estimate other regions fighting force and then try to put fear into people that stay behind opened mechanic by crating artificial scenarios although they are better then constantly abusing timers mechanic to rule them all by it
it still be always open to play for underdogs that want to do only PC and the wheels will turn all the time
yes but then they did not have any alliance tools to respond for an attack on any of their corp districts beside mailing and pub channels and that is not enough
where is the sense in playing PC if it is always closed for participants creating other issues for other game modes?
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
105
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:LOL @ the people who can't manage to make a dent or foothold in PC as it currently stands. You really think your interests are best served by complete timer removal?? That a "Suprise Raiding" mechanic will grant you an ability to "be in PC"? Better think that one through- Who, exactly, do you think will comprise the most prolific raiding groups? Small groups that couldn't gather a competitive 16 team or existing Molden Heath Mafia Hitsquad corps, who already are able to field multiple top-tier teams as needed? OH my, the tears will be fantastic in here when the QQnoobs realize they've just advocated to never exist in PC since they will never have a moments rest since they'll be attackable by pro's 24/7. US Civil War history has an example of what timer removal will do to Molden Heath/PC. Its called "Sherman's March". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea
raids are for people who want to attack and play PC without the obligation to defend or conquer, they just want to play PC and earn ISK on the win scenario while dwindling production for defenders from attacked district
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
they will struggle to get other time zone corps but it will not be impossible like it is now with any form of timers and locks
yes you 're contradicting yourself a bit because you over estimate other regions fighting force and then try to put fear into people that stay behind open mechanic by crating artificial scenarios although they are better then constantly abusing timers mechanic to rule them all by it
it still be always open to play for underdogs that want to do only PC and the wheels will turn all the time
yes but then they did not have any alliance tools to respond for an attack on any of their corp districts beside mailing and pub channels and that is not enough
where is the sense in playing PC if it is always closed for participants creating other issues for other game modes?
Im not creating artificial scenarios, I'm staying that there is not enough of a player balance globally for everyone to properly defend all time zones, this is a fact. There are other options that can deal with the Timer associated issue other than simply removing them. For the sake of discussion, could you please clearly list out the issues you see with the current timer mechanic so I can offer up solutions?
there is only one and it is the most irritating people from what i know and it is inability to play PC constantly for players with enough SP and is and with 16 man of friends when they are online ATM
sorry pokey but you can not anything with this with timers
PC was meant to be a replacement for corp battles and with timers people can not play their game mode of choice when and where they want because 5% lock districts with the entitlement of IT IS MINE
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:LOL @ the people who can't manage to make a dent or foothold in PC as it currently stands. You really think your interests are best served by complete timer removal?? That a "Suprise Raiding" mechanic will grant you an ability to "be in PC"? Better think that one through- Who, exactly, do you think will comprise the most prolific raiding groups? Small groups that couldn't gather a competitive 16 team or existing Molden Heath Mafia Hitsquad corps, who already are able to field multiple top-tier teams as needed? OH my, the tears will be fantastic in here when the QQnoobs realize they've just advocated to never exist in PC since they will never have a moments rest since they'll be attackable by pro's 24/7. US Civil War history has an example of what timer removal will do to Molden Heath/PC. Its called "Sherman's March". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea raids are for people who want to attack and play PC without the obligation to defend or conquer, they just want to play PC and earn ISK on the win scenario while dwindling production for defenders from attacked district Now who's making up artificial scenarios? Raids as you've described them will attract the current PC slayersquad masses who will roflstomp the everliving **** out of EVERYONE. And then the QQnoobery about how PC is too elitist will continue, albeit from the perspective of, " Waaa, we tried to raid in PC and got punked and then *big inhale* we got our district stomped out from under us * big inhale* and now our asses are just being passed around for clonefarming like a hackeysack at a Dave Matthews show!!! *big inhale* WAAAAAA!!!!!"
man seriously are you some kind of Pokeys parrot attorney? you know you don't have to be, pls keep it civil and i can respond w/o any issue
the artificial scenario is: people want to play only PC because they are online they have enough SP and they have the team and with timers it is not possible simple as that
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 18:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:there is only one and it is the most irritating people from what i know and it is inability to play PC constantly for players with enough SP and is and with 16 man of friends when they are online ATM Sorry I'm not tracking what you mean, could you rephrase it?
players with the right amount of SP, team mates, and time at the moment they are online, want to queue for PC and play that mode
this is not possible with timers
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:el OPERATOR wrote:LOL @ the people who can't manage to make a dent or foothold in PC as it currently stands. You really think your interests are best served by complete timer removal?? That a "Suprise Raiding" mechanic will grant you an ability to "be in PC"? Better think that one through- Who, exactly, do you think will comprise the most prolific raiding groups? Small groups that couldn't gather a competitive 16 team or existing Molden Heath Mafia Hitsquad corps, who already are able to field multiple top-tier teams as needed? OH my, the tears will be fantastic in here when the QQnoobs realize they've just advocated to never exist in PC since they will never have a moments rest since they'll be attackable by pro's 24/7. US Civil War history has an example of what timer removal will do to Molden Heath/PC. Its called "Sherman's March". http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherman%27s_March_to_the_Sea raids are for people who want to attack and play PC without the obligation to defend or conquer, they just want to play PC and earn ISK on the win scenario while dwindling production for defenders from attacked district Now who's making up artificial scenarios? Raids as you've described them will attract the current PC slayersquad masses who will roflstomp the everliving **** out of EVERYONE. And then the QQnoobery about how PC is too elitist will continue, albeit from the perspective of, " Waaa, we tried to raid in PC and got punked and then *big inhale* we got our district stomped out from under us * big inhale* and now our asses are just being passed around for clonefarming like a hackeysack at a Dave Matthews show!!! *big inhale* WAAAAAA!!!!!" man seriously are you some kind of Pokeys parrot attorney? you know you don't have to be, pls keep it civil and i can respond w/o any issue the artificial scenario is: people want to play only PC because they are online they have enough SP and they have the team and with timers it is not possible simple as that Not at all, Pokey and I actually butt heads pretty often (kinda often? Sometimes. We disagree sometimes. ) My point is you're making a case to increase the exacerbation of noobs in PC, as you think you are making a case to improve your own odds of success. End results: 1) you no more "active" in PC than you are now, 2) existing PC corps being little to no less dominant in PC than they are now, 3) and all those other PCnoobs that used to at least be able to buttress their PC holdings in a minimal manner so they could defend them actively will be vulnerable to the predatory mindsets of the existing PC murdercorps all day, every day. I really think your naivete of PC and what being competitive in PC means is becoming clear here. HINT: Anything you do to make it easier for yourself to succeed will make it easier for the guys that are already able to succeed. So, ask yourself, in that scenario, who winds up ultimately more successful? And who winds up QQing (*cough* again *cough*) that the rules/conditions are too hard?
man seriously hide that ego of yours as i do not mean me in my concept i mean that:
people above some level of SP and ISK and with friends online ATM are simply bored to pub stomp naps in pub contracts and want to have the big boys game approachable at all times because this is the mode they want to play only ATM
with timers or any similar mechanic it is impossible
if noobs want to try ti too why stop then let them try they may have their ass handled to them or they may suprise defenders we do not know but the wheels of PC game mode will be always turning not leaving any interested behind artificial boundaries of timers and locks that are and in any form will be abused by "cool kids"
as in eve politics win, it should be in dust bigger will dictate but the smaller will not be prevented to try to give it a whirl and test the bigger boys it is the sandbox nature, community sets the rules and bounds not a timer or locked stade like in null sec in eve only people with force set the rules
what is wrong with that beside that everyone that think of himself of being able, will have open entry into PC at any given moment?
new eden is harsh place if they hit those "elite skilled" self proclaimed protos it will be a lesson for them but it will be still an open mode if someone wants to play it only
nothing more nothing less
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene, could you please answer my question at the top of the page?
"So...so we're clear, you want people to be able to attack a district at any time of the day with minimal notice? "
sure i can
raids should have minimal notice but still it should be whole alliance of the attacked that gets the message 10 to 30 minutes before raid
you should be able to flip districts always also although it should require more costs, as to set up you infrastructure, with a longer notice about 1 hour to 3 or even set up your attack for 24 h prior still with the alliance noticed when getting ready to do so.
raid would be 1 to 2 matches while flip should require 3 to 4 matches still debatable, still available all the time, we could later add still skirmish 1.0 for flipping districts for first and second match
while raids are a two stage pub matches with PC reality something for proto stompers their mode of choice w/o obligations to defend because no district will flip thus constant PC game mode will be open for vets and the income will be high like after PC match now, just w/o district
as i said with out PC timers pub contracts will be free from q syncs and proto slayers terrorizing newbies, improoving those newbies experience and game play w/o doing anything more
advanced SP players will mostly play FW or trying the raiding mechanic while the big boys will have constantly open PC game mode as we had corp battles with raids and district flipping
those are only first ideas that come to mind but with minimal effort and resources we could fix most bad things that happen within the game (proto stomping newbies, q syncs for pub contracts etc. etc. etc.) and improve new players numbers also the list goes on and on
the most important thing is and will be PC will be approachable and open to all that want to participate and not blocked by game mode breaking rule set
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 19:59:00 -
[23] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Ok so lets say players are on in 6 hour shifts, 16 players each, 4 shifts a day... are you saying that an alliance needs to have 64 players for every district the alliance owns to properly defend it?
pokey i think you are exaggerating a bit, this is still a game
when you're writing shifts etc. i am starting to think you're more hardcore gamer then you think you're saying ;)
basically if you want to defend it above all cost yes but that is the wrong mind set that i think was hindering our PC community from the beginning
we will manage this by in game community deals within the game after initial chaos of district flips and it will not be that hard to manage alliance security, it will IMO spice the end game play for vets make politics more relevant and beside that as you said in earlier post either EU or asia/oceania will not have enough fire power or will to flip constantly or try to
after the "dust" sets down we will have open PC game mode w/o restrictions of play time which every player wanted from the beginning
we will have tiers of modes set up w/o any more messing within code to change things, there is still going to be an option for a vet to slay newbs but what for if they compete with vets constantly.
about the district holds i think the PC game mode should be unforgivable seriously yes 64 to properly defend, if PC will be set up with timer/lock rules the game play will always be stale and stale end game is bad for every end game
so yes i think dedication and proper constructed alliance force should be a must to hold ground in PC district owning part
easy end game > boring end game (locking)
boring end game > stale status (current PC)
stale status = not enough of fresh blood (pub stomping out of boredom and locked game play of choice)
not enough fresh blood = boring game play (vets leaving the game)
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:02:00 -
[24] - Quote
Alaika Arbosa wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
raids should have minimal notice but still it should be whole alliance of the attacked that gets the message 10 to 30 minutes before raid
you should be able to flip districts always also although it should require more costs, as to set up you infrastructure, with a longer notice about 1 hour to 3 or even set up your attack for 24 h prior still with the alliance noticed when getting ready to do so.
raid would be 1 to 2 matches while flip should require 3 to 4 matches still debatable, still available all the time, we could later add still skirmish 1.0 for flipping districts for first and second match
while raids are a two stage pub matches with PC reality something for proto stompers their mode of choice w/o obligations to defend because no district will flip thus constant PC game mode will be open for vets and the income will be high like after PC match now, just w/o district
My view on raids differs from yours, here's how Raids are a "Zero Warning" activity. What this means is that there is absolutely no warning that the raid is about to happen or is progress unless you have someone actively monitoring your District(s) on the Star Map (or some other new UI related to revamped PC). Raiders can bring a single squad, if other Raiders are encountered on the same District they are treated as though they are red. Defenders can bring up to 16 mercs to defend their District. Defenders are obviously red to all Raiders. Raids would be a simple single Skirmish match, Raiders controlling Letters generates Asset Wealth for the Raiders that they receive in the EoM screen. Defenders need to hold onto the Letters to prevent themselves from hemorrhaging said Asset. If the Defenders don't defend then it will be a quick match ripe with easy loot. Perhaps eventually, there could be other benefits to Raiding that would be directly related to the SI that the Defenders had on the District.
this is really nice but it will require a ton of coding when my proposal for start will just set up PC open for all at minimal cost and after that we could try some more elaborate techniques ;)
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:
man seriously hide that ego of yours as i do not mean me in my concept i mean that:
people above some level of SP and ISK and with friends online ATM are simply bored to pub stomp naps in pub contracts and want to have the big boys game approachable at all times because this is the mode they want to play only ATM
with timers or any similar mechanic it is impossible
if noobs want to try ti too why stop then let them try they may have their ass handled to them or they may suprise defenders we do not know but the wheels of PC game mode will be always turning not leaving any interested behind artificial boundaries of timers and locks that are and in any form will be abused by "cool kids"
as in eve politics win, it should be in dust bigger will dictate but the smaller will not be prevented to try to give it a whirl and test the bigger boys it is the sandbox nature, community sets the rules and bounds not a timer or locked stade like in null sec in eve only people with force set the rules
what is wrong with that beside that everyone that think of himself of being able, will have open entry into PC at any given moment?
new eden is harsh place if they hit those "elite skilled" self proclaimed protos it will be a lesson for them but it will be still an open mode if someone wants to play it only
nothing more nothing less
PC IS accessible. Especially to smaller groups. EVERYTHING you've advocated for is currently available, EXCEPT the ability to stage district attacks and have them opened on a whim. Be careful what you ask for though, if the existing PC powerhouses have the ability to stage attacks on-the-fly it will be those same smaller groups that will bear the majority of the burden. Theirs will be the districts most profitable to hit. Put it this way- We're all BankRobbers. What banks are most likely to be robbed most often, the occasional large one, with layers of security, located in the center of a metropolitan area OR the tiny podunk countrybanks dotting the countryside? Which banks will more appealing for a robbery by the strongest crews? You want to "open" PC. And I maintain it already is. Is it as easy as forming a squad and searching a PC battle in your battlefinder? No. But why should it be? Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight. Lame.
yes
yes
and yes
to play PC at whim when we got players with vet status online is the most valued thing in that all and a crucial one
it will give vets their home mode to play w/o terrorizing newbies as it is now
new eden is and should be a harsh place w/o artificial rules only with in game community set up rules that are still not preventing anyone from trying on the whim because they are online ATM
that is the dust i always wanted free from artificial rules like eve is, where only the players communicate and make those rules by power struggle of corps and alliances and pirates, that is what i always thought it would be in dust
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:20:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote: pokey
extreme cases are spicing things up so that boredom is not coming in
but pokey you do not need to own a district as you can play a pirate with raids till you build a proper security for owned land
but do not prohibit it for others that have time and will to do it freedom of choice because there are some that have this time now and are discouraged by the timers limitation thus limiting our player numbers also
it should be opened as possible
"suddenly it takes very few people to attack but a shitload more to defend" only when you want to bite more then you can chew
solutions in between are always bad "Thats why I'm pushing for a more hybrid system, seperating Raids vs Conquest so that the Zergs and the Elites can each have a place in the game without totally dominating the field." no one will be happy with this
we can make flipping a district to require more wins and matches but the timer system is a really bad thing
i have nothing against bigger gets more but not when even when he is bigger he is still secured by locks and abusing them thus any hybrid system within this game will also fail
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:23:00 -
[27] - Quote
pub match with PC rule set and penalty for defenders if they lose
nothing wrong with that
competition will be hard, reward will be big enough to run proto in it and it will be always open game mode for vets what do you want more?
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote: Null-sec is nothing but timers and I'm actually really offended by your assertion that it has none. Initiative lost the Second Catch War because we got burnt out from shooting stations and POSes every damn day while AAA came in with Triage Carriers and undid the damage... every day. That's all it was for months until we finally just gave up and went back to high sec because of the gimmicky timer system. We had plenty of momentum, were winning the war by a land-slide using good tactics and strategy, but we eventually lost because no-one likes station bashing and waking up on Thanksgiving morning to go shoot a station that will just get repped as soon as we leave.
that is why i dont want any timers in the game
we had corp battles we were assured PC will be corp battles 2.0 but with timers of any kind it is impossible...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:38:00 -
[29] - Quote
Thor Odinson42 wrote:Just to clarify things on what I think is going on.
Current PC groups want: the same but with more ISK
Soraya: Doesn't want it to be the same, but wants to keep 24 notice of battles. Adding some bells and whistles, thinks things will change.
Random Dudes with no PC experience want: PS2
Is this about right?
this char is closed beta char, yeah still random for community though been playing in and out through the time the game is on
thus i have ideas coming from participation in few PC matches when i was still in tritan industries back in the day
within new eden it will not be PS2 or something similar when you build right infrastructure for defense you will not lose your land the possibility will be there it wont be instant gratification though just a ton of communication and socializing while building proper security alliance
this will also prevent of over biting more land then you can chew as the ingame community will verify your ability to defend not some timers or locks
and it will be constant open game mode for vets, when they leave newbies terror in pubs or semi vets in FW maybe our community will grow more w/o to much coding
win
win
win
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:44:00 -
[30] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote: No, it will take multiple teams of 16 to defend a district, but only one team to attack it. Owning a single district would mean it takes more defenders than it takes attackers.
i never said that when a district is attacked ATM some one else can attack it in the same time that is over interpretation from your side attackers should be queued for the fight for the attacked district
Pokey Dravon wrote: In a true compromise, no one is 100% happy. If you're not interested in working towards a compromise, then there is really no reason to continue debating. In the end the only person I need to convince has a blue tag next to his name.
again over interpretation P. never said i am not interested but a compromise with any form of timers will be staying at status quo
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 20:50:00 -
[31] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote: No, it will take multiple teams of 16 to defend a district, but only one team to attack it. Owning a single district would mean it takes more defenders than it takes attackers.
i never said that when a district is attacked ATM some one else can attack it in the same time that is over interpretation from your side attackers should be queued for the fight for the attacked district It will take multiple teams of 16 to cover the defense of the district over a 24 hour period. Thus it will take more than 16 unique players to be available to defend the district.
this will only encourage to build bigger alliances nothing more IMO
you do not need every defender to be a "pro gamer" also as there will be not only pro gamers attacking ;)
and i've edited my last post also but i will add here that i am not against compromise only that i am against any form of timers for a veteran players game more that will hinder an accessibility to that mode and that will lead again to proto stomping pubs from boredom etc. etc.
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 21:04:00 -
[32] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Heres what I don't get about your argument is that I offer up "Here, Raids will give you exactly what you're asking for, the ability for vets to jump into a PC pretty much whenever they want, the only thing they can't do is capture whenever they want." but you come back with "Nope if they can't capture then they'll just go back to stomping pubs" even though they're getting the PC battles you're asking for, the only difference is the end condition of the district.
this will only lead to abusing any form of timers and locks by land owners again as it is now, limiting accessibility and motion in MH, thus i seriously do not want timers.
we had this till now big guys will be untouchable as they are now...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 21:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Zene Ren wrote:Pokey Dravon wrote:
Heres what I don't get about your argument is that I offer up "Here, Raids will give you exactly what you're asking for, the ability for vets to jump into a PC pretty much whenever they want, the only thing they can't do is capture whenever they want." but you come back with "Nope if they can't capture then they'll just go back to stomping pubs" even though they're getting the PC battles you're asking for, the only difference is the end condition of the district.
this will only lead to abusing any form of timers and locks by land owners again as it is now, limiting accessibility and motion in MH, thus i seriously do not want timers. we had this till now big guys will be untouchable as they are now... Um zerging their districts and stealing all of their profits is hardly "untouchable". And what exactly are you getting at with "Locking"? Do you mean moving them to an undesirable time slot? Or are you talking about self attacking to lock? I've already proposed a solution to the first and there is a thread discussing how to prevent the latter.
alt corps, region time zone locking there are and will always be people that abuse timer system in their favor and seriously it will leave us in the place that we are now, all in all timers are bad and the argument about PS2 is not that valid as people claim to be
we can now build mulit time zone alliances within the game to keep our land w/o the need to leave it unguarded
we have one server and one community and we should have one end game mode for vet players that want to do PC only
i seriously need to repeat myself ;( having timers will and are leading to vets playing in pub matches because they can not do PC at any given moment
solutions like the fuel and other for the latter thing you mentioned plus a solution for pub proto stompers and q syncs are only a band aid for PC that is available 24/7 seriously so many proplem dealt with one solution, no timers
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 21:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:Zene Ren wrote:pub match with PC rule set and penalty for defenders if they lose nothing wrong with that competition will be hard, reward will be big enough to run proto in it and it will be always open game mode for vets what do you want more? LOL I'm curious what you're talking about with, "PC rule set"? And a penalty for defenders if they lose? But no penalty for attackers when they lose? Exemplify my statement about what I said about this being all about minimizing risk while maximizing reward more.
lol man seriously no comment...
penalty for attackers that fail: 0 pay, nada, non only costs for lost suits
penalty for defenders when they fail smaller dwindled or halted isk or any other district generated resource
PC rule set, you do not understand even that?
FF on and only vets on the other side
what do you want more?
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 22:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
A raid is PC.
I can be done at any given moment.
The only difference is that they cant steal a district by default at some god awful hour.
Raiding encourages alliance to have 24 hour patrol, but doesn't make it a complete necessity.
I mean honestly would you be fine If I solo flipped all of your alliance's districts by doing it in a time slot where you don't have people on? Are you REALLY ok with that mechanic?
i seriously do not understand how can you be so hesitant to try and build after some time of chaos and district flipping a proper security multi time zone alliance
this is seriously strange IMO we have one server one universe why lock players behind timers in the game with that core system is really beyond me
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:02:00 -
[36] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
And again, to avoid the situation I described, you would need people online, 24/7. We're talking 48-64 players for every single district an alliance owns. There's what....245 districts or so? So in order for all alliances to properly defend 24/7 you would need 11,760-15,680 players playing PC actively every day for 6-8 hours a day.
We do not have the player count to support that kind of system no matter how you try to justify its existence.
player number would increase IMO substantially when we will remove veterans from pub contracts thus removing proto stompers from the newbie game mode as i mentioned before but those new players need time to learn that the era of q syncs and proto stomping in pub matches has ended by opening PC 24/7
why do you intend to defend all districts from the get go and why are you assuming that one alliance should have and defend all districts this mode will thrive on dynamic flipping at start till we adjust it later just w/o timers
while i agree that later in development there should be an orbital bombardment required to open the district for flipping as of now we should just lay the foundations for that systems with removing artificial timers that prevent attacking the districts and limiting vets from playing end game mode of choice aka PC w/o 24 hour preparation or timer windows
there is a lot of districts plenty of targets not necessary yours will be the target all the time while you assume with your statement that it will be, this is wrong when we will have more systems opened it will be even bigger pool of targets
but the game needs to grow and with timers we are running in a magic cycle of band aid for bad end game mechanic that constantly leaves veterans terrorizing pubs newbies
IMO we need to open the flood gates first adjust it later with bigger bonuses for successful defense, penalties will be controlled by the community in game. the penalty is losing a district by not being able to defend it 24/7, or temporal losing of bonus from owning a district by being the victim of constant raiding
players within the game will create everything they need to succeed newbies , newer and older vets
i know the numbers yes they are correct but as i said timers= stale game play for vets when we need ASAP a game mode for vets from the get go when they are online so that they will not stomp new players straight out of academy
as i said before at start there will be chaos with district locking but after some time players will organize just stop preventing them from doing what they want only and this is PC combat quick and approachable
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:11:00 -
[37] - Quote
el OPERATOR wrote:
So attackers get paid for losses when their attacks fail? Is another example of "Failure=IskReward" available somewhere in New Eden? I'm curious and would like to compare the two.
No, "PC rule set" without an explanation I do not understand, that's why I asked. Funny thing about what you describe:
FF on <- identical to Faction Warfare, so no, not unique as a "PC rule"
Only vets <- Not created by your idea. Since attacks will happen at will, defenders will be composed of members available, not all of whom will neccessarily be "vets". " Only Vets" is a condition created by corps having the ability to take the time to ensure they have PC capable teammembers available.
You realize you're just asking for PC to be a pub match, but without the competition, yet?
pc rule set also means team deploy does it not?
only in PC you can deploy full 16 man squad
above that friendly fire and a few million isk rewards with some nice salvage
raid attacker winner takes tons of isk while being able to deploy full team for the match w/o any hassle q syncs and nice salvage
(we clear FW from q sync stompers as they will have their end game mode with better/bigger rewards)
raid attacker defeated lose suits and does not get money or salvage when they lose plus loses the initiation cost required for raid attack
big ISK risk/big ISK reward
raid defender winner gets tons of ISK is able to deploy whole team again no q sync hassle and praying for success while doing so and salvage
raid defender loser does not get ISK or salvage and loses some % of district production for instance and cost of suits
here you go
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:29:00 -
[38] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:
You don't seem to understand. We don't have the playerbase in the entire game to support what you're asking for. Fixing PC is not going to make people magically flock to play Dust, and certainly not in the required numbers to support your idea. Additionally you still have not told me how your idea gets past the imbalance in regional playerbase as well as excessive talent pooling we see in other areas such as Japan.
this thing will solve itself out by it self, when we will have alliance tools for response after the initial chaos people will get it that they need to have a multi time zone alliance to have and own a district for longer, do not worry about this as this will be the thing for community to consolidate within the game as they will know for sure that w/o owning a district will be not possible.
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Because why bother even trying to get a district if you know some guy in a different time zone will steal it out from under you? You're basically going balls deep with "Oh just send the entire system into total chaos and hopefully the player base will magically triple to make it all work!"
yeah man i would not worry about that 24/7 veteran mode open means people need to think and get into world wide alliance and yes till they make that happen it will be chaos, after first multi time zone alliances form we will be able to polish this mode more
Pokey Dravon wrote:
Here's the deal. PC is unique because people always bring the best of the best to the fight. You want EVERYONE to be involved, everyone in the game. All the time. Which means what you get is a mix of everyone, newbies, vets, and everyone in between. You know what other game mode is like that? Public Contracts.
players will know that in PC mode only vets are playing trust me when they enter the fray and will get their asses delivered for them on the plate because full 16 man enemy defends it and profits it greatly while attacker when fails loses every invested isk
trust me this penalty will teach them and no in public contracts we have a reward either way if you lose or if you win to some extent and we can not deploy full 16 man team for that
Pokey Dravon wrote:
If you make PC so chaotic, so manpower intensive that alliances are scraping together anyone they can get just to fill the damn time slots....what do you end up with? A public match. And since ownership wont matter because it'll just get flipped the second your patrols have an opening, how is that any different from a pub match?
no man a full team deployed match still that teaches team play and coordination and i will doubt that more then 1-3 new players will be invited for PC defense or attack and i am sure that when enabled, the no timer rule, vets who want to own and play will consolidate for sure so do not worry they will have their end game mode while new players will still play public contracts on its rules so 6 man squad deploy tons of random people etc. etc. etc.
that was my vision for end game in dust from beta and yet i still wonder why no one wanted to achieve that ;(
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.21 23:52:00 -
[39] - Quote
Pokey Dravon wrote:Holy ****. What part of "WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH PLAYERS IN ALL THE TIME ZONES TO MAKE TRUE MULTI-TIME ZONE ALLIANCES" are you not getting? If we had 50,000 players logging in and playing daily I would actually probably agree with you *but we dont*. Yeah there will be total and utter chaos, and then 90% of the people will say "**** this, it's cheaper to just play pubs!" and we'll be right back to where we are now.c Not good enough to take a district in PC? Just do it at a weird time when they're not online! But that's ok because the group that's better than you that you ganked the district from will come right back and kick you in the teeth anyways and take it back. What you want is a place for a group to deploy as a 16 man team to learn teamwork and practice for PC. What you're asking for is to turn PC into a training ground rather than a competative enviroment. What I'm offering is allowing part of PC to be used for training without completely undermining the competative nature of PC. Want to give your new guys a chance to train? Put them in charge of defending against Raids. Want to give your vets a change to fight against the best of the best? Put them in charge of defending against Conquest. If your corporation is not good enough to forcefully take a district without making use of ambush attacks, then they are not good enough to defend that district.
don't worry that much about player base when we will have good rule set and proto bears and q sync will stop terrorizing pubs community will grow not instantly but trust me it will, dust is free and unique people when not stomped will come towards it and will want to learn more about it we just need some brave moves from devs ;)
i see though you will not leave the timer idea that is your right but i will not let timers to stay either in our debate
ps. thanks for the time and replies though
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
106
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Posted - 2015.01.22 00:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aeon Amadi wrote:
Consider this for a moment:
If we removed timers all together and allowed for districts to be attacked, whenever, however. How many people would have to be online to attack and defend at any given time?
245 districts * 16 players = 3,920
245 districts * 32 players = 7,840
Let's assume that only half of that is being attacked at any given time, throughout the day. That's still 1,920 players.
Even in the best case scenario, we don't have enough people to field to be able to engage in battles constantly, non-stop. There has to be some sort of filter, barrier, or limitation in order for players to have down-time between matches and be able to coordinate. We haven't had more than 3,500 players online at any given time since August.
that is nice and yeah you have a point but if we do not give our vets a game mode for them dust new players will still be stomped and discouraged to invest more time in this game thus leaving us in a dwindling spiral
no longer academy or things like that will prevent them from hitting the reality after, with proto stompers and q syncs from pure boredom in pub matches thus going deeper into tier side and other solutions that will only make the game experience more sterile and not appealing
on the opposite side if we enable vets their end game mode 24/7 with lots of targets and an option to start the PC almost instantly vets will be happy and new players also
veterans needs to have high risk high reward mode enabled for them 24/7 or we will stay in status quo
that is the base for my argumentation
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
112
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Posted - 2015.01.22 12:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
bigolenuts wrote:steadyhand amarr wrote:Based on what facts... it won't happen like that. Also grabbing people out of local to take part in PC is exactly what we want. Please get out of pro club only mentality. We want everyone in PC not just a few. This stuiped pro gamer ides is a large factor that screwed up dust.
It should have always been about corps throwing everything and the kitchen sink at each other.
24 hour wars mean you recruit till u can plug the gaps. Only idots would count on the same players 24/7 a well run corp will always have men and women it can count on.
If that means all the old powers die out so be it. I would rather see PC full of 1000 idots having fun. Than 100 pro gamers who do everything they can to avoid a fight
Edit.....so my phone posted this message 6 hours late....opps Get your 16 mercs from local and attack someone then. Please post your results. You'll see, that playing with the same corp group of players is very advantageous. The game mode is called Planetary Conquest. Do I need to define, "conquest" for you?
why do you care if this 16 man pug will win or lose OMFG it is not about that
it is about the availability of the mode 24/7 so that this pug group has a shot (yes they will probably lose so what? ) and this 16 man team will have the game mode of their choice available to play also
wheels are turning game mode is active and dynamic everybody gets their instant chance when they can afford it they got the skills and a team even of randoms
the whole idea of this 1337 club is broken at it's core and the idea of timers also it is and always will be shutting this game mode from everybody just so that 16 man "skilled vets" lol can have their G damn prize, their name on the planets pixel jeez
this is the worst thing that can happen
it is the barrier of entry for people that are online ATM and want to compete against similar killed vets in 16 man team mode deploy and any form of timers prevents that
simple as that
veterans community needs their end game mode enabled for instant action 24/7 or else, as i said before, proto stompers proto bears and q syncs will still be terrorizing newbs in pubs from bordom
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
112
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Posted - 2015.01.22 12:27:00 -
[42] - Quote
bigolenuts wrote:steadyhand amarr wrote:bigolenuts wrote:steadyhand amarr wrote:Based on what facts... it won't happen like that. Also grabbing people out of local to take part in PC is exactly what we want. Please get out of pro club only mentality. We want everyone in PC not just a few. This stuiped pro gamer ides is a large factor that screwed up dust.
It should have always been about corps throwing everything and the kitchen sink at each other.
24 hour wars mean you recruit till u can plug the gaps. Only idots would count on the same players 24/7 a well run corp will always have men and women it can count on.
If that means all the old powers die out so be it. I would rather see PC full of 1000 idots having fun. Than 100 pro gamers who do everything they can to avoid a fight
Edit.....so my phone posted this message 6 hours late....opps Get your 16 mercs from local and attack someone then. Please post your results. You'll see, that playing with the same corp group of players is very advantageous. The game mode is called Planetary Conquest. Do I need to define, "conquest" for you? I am unable to express how stuiped this comment is. We are not talking about PC right now we talking about how we would like to make it. And that was a repose to a covo while ago I forgot to quote Please try and keep up! It normally involves reading the tread no need, comments from people who do not participate in a mode does not interest me. Not everyone started in PC. Some worked at the game and got in the hard way. Participation medals are what has made todays youth weak,
laugh my ass off seriously? really?
5% elite dictating the shut down of game mode for 95% vets geez talking about self entitlement no need to discuss the matter with you any longer...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
113
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Posted - 2015.01.22 12:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
bigolenuts wrote:
Get your 16 mercs from local and attack someone then.
Please post your results.
You'll see, that playing with the same corp group of players is very advantageous. The game mode is called Planetary Conquest.
Do I need to define, "conquest" for you?
I am unable to express how stuiped this comment is.
We are not talking about PC right now we talking about how we would like to make it. And that was a repose to a covo while ago I forgot to quote
Please try and keep up! It normally involves reading the tread[/quote]
no need, comments from people who do not participate in a mode does not interest me.
Not everyone started in PC. Some worked at the game and got in the hard way. Participation medals are what has made todays youth weak,
[/quote]
laugh my ass off seriously? really?
5% elite dictating the shut down of game mode for 95% vets geez talking about self entitlement no need to discuss the matter with you any longer...
[/quote]
If there are 95% of you, get them together. See, that is where the problems lies. You guys are lazy. Get together these mercs you claim that are in the game and come to PC. You'd be surprised at how easy it is really.
Hell, I gave away all of our districts when we retired. I was practically begging in GD for new corps to come over and at least give it a try. They wouldn't. Main reason was they didn't have proto gear. So according to you, since players put time in the game, made a team of like-minded individuals and practiced tactics, they should be punished. Talk about self entitlement. no need to discuss the matter with you any longer.[/quote]
man seriously this is a closed beta character...
been playing few PC as a EU player within US corp named tritan industries before when outer heaven was removing RofL from the MH
the issue is and always will be timers
locking game mode for instant team deployed action and no defense from your side will change it
no one wants your grace ohhh "lord" lots of F. laugh free districts when you retire lol seriously OMFG now you are starting to remind me a delusional person no more comment here needed...
people want to be able to jump into the fray when they are ATM in game ready for some PC and not wait for the grace of defender to show up because their district is magically locked
it should be simple you don't have the man power to hold your ground 24/7 you will lose it
not an abusing timer mechanics because wait i can not play ATM so we will lock them then...
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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Zene Ren
Hired Ghost
115
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Posted - 2015.01.22 20:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ghostt Shadoww wrote:
bunch of crap
tritan industries to be frank open beta PC corp never a top dog yet still owners of some district back then and an active PC players for some time, i wasn't taking the credit i was simply referring to someone that was stating i just came here...
true life warrior, please do not make me laugh, irrelevant sorry man
we can always meet in person and we can talk those things out
such statements and bunch of random photos do not impress nor they make your arguments any more valid to me
i could even call this behaviour a bit different but i am too old for that...
sorry again but your isk mostly farmed because of abusing the system that was out after 1.0v of the game does not impress me either sorry
calling a coward someone that you know nothing of, is really a sign of intellectual impotence IMO, keep it up though and cheers (you do not impress me with that one too)
easy is and it probably was for every defender in a multi time zone game with one server and one community to artificially lock most districts so that only your "1337" group could defend them because when it would require to build a multi time zone alliance you would not be on that ISK level with you higher authority attitude
yes keep telling yourself that the 95% of the rest will never understand what you know or don't, man seriously now you're just funny in not a positive way i will leave the rest to your imagination...
"Simply because we have been here since day one" you are not unique with that but maybe if you will repeat that more often to yourself you can feel like that for real...
"We Want (Dust Vets) everyone possible in PC that can hold at least a 20 man active Roster. To have a spot in PC. All top PC corps can leave PC today. Leave it open for x amount of time. And we can come back and take it ALL at any moment. It takes Isk,skill, teamwork etc etc to take and HOLD land."- this will never work good in multi time zone environment, it would if every region had its own server nice thing you read my comments though...
"But you know this Mr. Ren. Hince why you want the easy way out." if you seriously think that the game would be easy when no timers rule would be applied man you're just wrong completely opposite, we would have situation, at last, that promotes attackes and not COWARD defenders behind timers, cowards that not once or twice abused the system to get this ISK status that you're so proud of having
"You want to be a coward and have No Notice and come get what you can and leave in the night" never said no notice, alliance tools to be able to respond and proper structure to defend your land 24/7 w/o an ability to abuse one way or another
"Since you own no land there is no way for anyone to retaliate against you. This is not Eve this is Dust" again "elite" mentality ego maniac i am not talking and was not talking about myself nor i was referring to me learn to understand what you read...
"So why do you think it's okay. For you to come while a corp is sleeping to take what you want." multi time zone server/game
the create multi time zone alliance for security 24\7 tough guy no comments further needed
and you cowards want to stay behind timer locks to show your e peen pixel districts man you're my hero (not) lol
keep telling yourself you're special though
Ghostt Shadoww wrote:
Dust Community.........After reading all these pages of comments. Sounds like to me that the public want a way to attack the big boys. And they want to get something out of it. Not only that but some how hurt us in some kind of way.....Sounds like some of you have 6 good players on every day some of you hav 16 some of you have 30. But can't get into PC due to real life time issues. Or you just don't have enough Isk to battle the Vets. Some of you don't want to take the time to make a corporation. Do all the hard work. Go thru u 6 months of building and training. And spy's , and good corps taking your best players. Blah blah blah blah blah....so many factors involved just to be able to one day Attack one of the big guys. To then realize oh my goodness. This is really expensive. How the heck do these top guys fight in PC all day every day. I'll never be able to get them out. Not only do you have to deal with a corp. But it's alliance of 6 to 10 corps all with active bad ass players.....
Oh my goodness Dust is so huge how am I ever going to even scratch those big guys. Aaaarrrrrgggggggggggg......
I get it. It's overwhelming I know been there done that. In the game and IRL. So you have some Badasses from COD on Right Now. You have a proto gun and proto suit. You ready and wish you could fight those leaderboard punks....cuz now you have 20sp and you feel hard....but what I said above you just don't want to go thru.....
Corp Battles....no major Codeing involved. You already had this system at one
i am responding because you called me out thinking about yourself you're special grow up pls...
no one will be able to jump in and win those "big boys" they will be able to attack you though if they got ISK and train
and please don't worry about ISK of others not only you abused the time when it was really profitable seriously i am starting to think of you a lot less then before i got to the part you called me a coward now you're just delusional too many hours in virtual world probably...
while i agree with one thing skirmish 1.0 and corp battles would be welcomed addition again along with raiding and no timers
Balance is the key to achieve knowledge and understanding
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