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Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 16:28:00 - [1] - Quote CCP Rattati wrote: Zaria Min Deir wrote: Yes. Because we sure don't want to pay any attention to the people who not only have extensive experience in planetary conquest in the past, but are still actively involved and are actually interested in its future. Because their opinions are obviously worthless. No-one has seen those opinions, why is there not a collective proposal from that distinguished group of major minds? Except for this little gold nugget: "Region locking is stupid" There is a massive conflict of interest, and lots of vested interest as well in that group. I have yet to see an idea from the current PC lobby, other than Pokeys. There was another group of vested interest players that tried something like this, i.e. refuse to admit there is a problem, refuse to be honest and offer ideas that addressed the problem, but much rather criticize all changes/ideas that were proposed. It didn't work then, and it won't work now. I talk about it all the time. It pisses off the portion of the PC community that's been able to control things with relatively few elite players. I like Pokey's ideas a lot. As long as there is some spontaneous raiding mechanic that takes away profits if land holders don't show up or successfully defend raids. If they no show in succession I think the raids should work to "soften up" districts where they could be attacked instantly and flipped if nobody shows. I don't like attacks happening 24-48 hours after the attack is made because I think it's always allowed groups to hire ringers they know can flip districts or prevent them from being flipped. Over time it caused many average corps to just give up and more and more talent poured into the corps that kept their hat in the game. BUT I do think the raiding mechanic would allow average players to keep elite players from holding too much of the pie. I have seen very few proposals from anyone from a PC power corp that would have done anything other than keep their thumbs on the masses. Ariana had a nice window timer proposal that I liked a lot, but outside of that I can't recall anything that would open PC at all. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 16:33:00 - [2] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: i have to repeat any kind of timers and districts control from corp will only result in stale PC and vets playing FW or pubs because their primary activity is locked for the time being timers and locks are a bad core mechanic that needs to disappear those people that want to be entitled to have a district and are anti social thus not in multi time zone alliance should not be able to defend the district or play 24/7 if you want to control a district and earn it while defending it with your alliance get a multi time zone alliance fro district security There's already a game for that. It's called Planetside 2. There has to be someway to manage it to make the landholding worthwhile. Having a window timer that's up-gradable to get a window of say 2 hours would be sufficient to create the gameplay you'd like to see. An elite corp would probably find it worthwhile to upgrade their districts for the smallest windows possible, but a large corp full of low to medium skill players would probably just leave it at 4-8 hours for example. During those windows battles would spin up nearly instantly. I don't think this is as critical if you have a raid mechanic that I described above. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:01:00 - [3] - Quote You wish 5% of the game played PC, it's nowhere near that high. This came from the only people versed in full team play being closed beta players that pooled their talent while participating in corporation battles. When PC dropped there was no way for anyone to practice for PC outside of spending 80 million ISK for a single clone pack. The number of players and corps in PC was much higher in the beginning, but it became clear that the mechanics were too much in the favor of those that were either small, elite groups or had those groups on speed dial. You can't go from one extreme to another. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:08:00 - [4] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ghostt Shadoww wrote: You can't wake up and defend. Then that's your problem ... For me its more like, I'm not going to leave my job to do a PC match. If my corp is working and we always get attacked while we're all at work, are we just screwed until the weekend? Would that not encourage you to recruit players to cover for you? With each District you add, you should be adding coverage /garrisons to your corporation. As Jaysyn said it would encourage that because it's necessary. But as I pointed out before, if you allow attackers to attack whenever they want, you're looking at any point in a 24 hour window. Sure people can wake up early to do a PC match, but if the other side is doing it in a comfortable afternoon and you're defending at 4AM, that's not sustainable. So you really have to go under the assumption of what is possible in the long rune. So if we say the average person can devote 8 hours to playing the game in a sustainable fashion, that means you need 16 guys for every 8 hours. You can recruit others to cover the empty time, so 2 more teams of 16 for a grand total of 48 players to defend a single district. 48 players needed for a single district seems excessive to me. Hell I think 8 hours might be a little much to expect, if people get off at 6PM and play till mightnight, that's only 6 hours for each group which would push the total needed players to 64). There is also the issue of imbalance between regions in that there are far more NA players than Oceania and I imagine Europe lands somewhere in the middle. So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot. As an aside, I'll admit that I'm not Uber Hardcore like some of the guys here. And while I'm willing to make some changes every once in a while, you have to remember that at the end of the day this is still a video game. Video games are supposed to be fun, and if I have to literally change my lifestyle, sleep, or work schedule so I can play the game....the fun starts to quickly evaporate and it turns into a chore. If you can attack instantly anytime the districts just won't matter. I can only assume that you'd need some start up ISK to even enter the fray. If your district was lost the same day you took it while you were asleep I think people would lose interest pretty quick. It would be no different than the frustration corps felt when they thought they were fighting Team X and find 15 Team Players when they enter the warbarge, except they'd log in and see they had nothing. I can picture the CEO saying, well **** that. I can tell you with 100% certainty that PC corps now aren't going to recruit 500 players to maintain their holdings. They'll just turn on their PS4 and play PS2. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:11:00 - [5] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: CCP Rattati wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Ghostt Shadoww wrote: You can't wake up and defend. Then that's your problem ... For me its more like, I'm not going to leave my job to do a PC match. If my corp is working and we always get attacked while we're all at work, are we just screwed until the weekend? Would that not encourage you to recruit players to cover for you? With each District you add, you should be adding coverage /garrisons to your corporation. As Jaysyn said it would encourage that because it's necessary. But as I pointed out before, if you allow attackers to attack whenever they want, you're looking at any point in a 24 hour window. Sure people can wake up early to do a PC match, but if the other side is doing it in a comfortable afternoon and you're defending at 4AM, that's not sustainable. So you really have to go under the assumption of what is possible in the long rune. So if we say the average person can devote 8 hours to playing the game in a sustainable fashion, that means you need 16 guys for every 8 hours. You can recruit others to cover the empty time, so 2 more teams of 16 for a grand total of 48 players to defend a single district. 48 players needed for a single district seems excessive to me. Hell I think 8 hours might be a little much to expect, if people get off at 6PM and play till mightnight, that's only 6 hours for each group which would push the total needed players to 64). There is also the issue of imbalance between regions in that there are far more NA players than Oceania and I imagine Europe lands somewhere in the middle. So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot. As an aside, I'll admit that I'm not Uber Hardcore like some of the guys here. And while I'm willing to make some changes every once in a while, you have to remember that at the end of the day this is still a video game. Video games are supposed to be fun, and if I have to literally change my lifestyle, sleep, or work schedule so I can play the game....the fun starts to quickly evaporate and it turns into a chore. just make multi time zone alliance you don't have to defend 24/7 alliance security is for that people like you always think it seems my district only i have to defend it that is bad and only will hinder the game for others that want a shot at PC you got friends outside of corp or alliances they are called mercs for a reason need two more because you're short hire them if the attack is on the asia time zone let asia time zone corp from your alliance to handle it simple as that if some one will take most oceania players so what man? it is politics and new eden life is harsh one time you lose one time you winn the community will balance it self w/o any artificial boundaries that are keeping others from playing their primarly game mode when they are online seriously we need to stop with this elite approach and let the community dictate the power struggle alliances and corps not some timers and lock, we have one universe for that no one demands for you to change your life style but still you're trying to be special not everything suppose to rely on only your or your corp shoulders, get into multi time zone alliance and problem solved i have to repeat more timers or any iteration of them will only result in stale game play and vets ruining noobs life in the game that will not grow because newbies will not have will to continue and grow to vets PC should be dynamic and active like corp battles were and vets have to play it 24/7 w/o locks or the status quo will stay as it is and that is small community because people needs time to grow in this game and they will not grow because vets have noting to do(locked districts) and will farm newbs in pub matches or q sync for them or play FW while wanting to play PC only What you propose won't cause people to enter alliances. It would cause all the serious players to quit and the vacuum would be filled by people who can't spell grabbing people out of local chat. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:25:00 - [6] - Quote Zene Ren, I've advocated to open up PC to more players through different mechanics for nearly 2 years. I've begged CCP for nearly 2 years to give us some other form of team deploy to get the masses prepared for PC. I've asked for more incentives to win pub matches, to push people into squads, etc. It's not an elite mentality that I am coming from. You think that a new to PC corp will be willing to invest 100s of millions of ISK to see it all lost while they sleep? They may once, but they won't do it again. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:32:00 - [7] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Zene Ren, you didn't fully read everything I said since I already addressed your counterpoints in the original post. Thor Odinson42 wrote: If you can attack instantly anytime the districts just won't matter. I can only assume that you'd need some start up ISK to even enter the fray. If your district was lost the same day you took it while you were asleep I think people would lose interest pretty quick. It would be no different than the frustration corps felt when they thought they were fighting Team X and find 15 Team Players when they enter the warbarge, except they'd log in and see they had nothing. I can picture the CEO saying, well **** that. I can tell you with 100% certainty that PC corps now aren't going to recruit 500 players to maintain their holdings. They'll just turn on their PS4 and play PS2. My point exactly. Even with a full day's notice, being attacked any time of the day is going to quickly cause issues. If we had an even distribution of players around the world it would be less of an issue, but which certain regions have small player bases that tend to clump into singular groups, whoever grabs those groups first is going to dominate. What you'll end up with is a handful of alliances dominating PC because they hold all of the players from a certain region, allowing them to freely take any district because the defenders will simply be unable to find anyone to recruit in those time zones. I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle. To point out where he's coming from here Zene. No new to PC corps would be able to take anything from the sure to pop up super alliance during the North American prime times. Their only hope would be to hit them during Euro, Asian, or Australian prime times. But they'd quickly find out that the super alliance had locked up all the talent in that timezone as well. If CCP completely removed timers one of two things would happen: 1) ALL of the current PC community would band together to prevent the "wake up and everything is gone" scenario OR 2) CCP's most dedicated, highest spending clientele would exit the building and give up the last of the hope they had left. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:41:00 - [8] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: i can tell you guys one thing for sure we had timers mechanic till now did it worked? did a variations of it worked? instead of game mode for all vets we have elite club that most people within even tell it does not work and every variation will not i am only saying most vets do stomp newbs because they are locked off from the game mode they want to play only do not worry about holding the districts for now open the flood gates let everybody who wants to play it as a focused mode play it and then just do minor tweaks with penalties or benefits after that when we will have data what needs to be done "I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle." we got that because of those locks and abusing mechanics constantly needing tweaks instead of adding new things still if there is not that many of those then why are you even mentioning the threat of being attacked constantly at 4 am or some other not good for you hours? ( on a side note your arguments are starting to contradict each other) I understand your frustration with how PC has played out. But I think you don't totally understand how and why things have played out the way they have. The locking and the abusing of mechanics came about because the people that couldn't contend with the super corps needed something to keep themselves on the field. If not for the ability to lock, PC would have been dead a LONG time ago and we probably would have seen the need for an ISK wipe. Your concerns for accessibility and entry for the masses into PC are addressed by a raiding mechanic. If done properly they would put pressure on established corps to maintain their districts or they'd risk losing them easily. BUT it would still keep a place for a small, elite corp to be successful through quality not quantity. CCP can't make it 100% about the zerg. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5777	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:42:00 - [9] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: pokey, "So if an Alliance snatches up most of the Oceanic players (Which would be easier given the lower player count), they're going to have a distinct advantage that is nearly impossible to counter since no one will be left to defend against them in that time slot." so what you will have at least what to do battling PC to reclaim them in your preferred time zone and the"wheel will be constantly turning" PC guys will have constant PC, newbs will have peace in public contracts w/o proto stompers and advanced SP people will have FW where is harm in that? i can't believe that only the honor of those PC vet elite group will be damaged a bit because they would have to reclaim lost districts but guess what PC will be open and the game mode everybody vet wants to be in will be used in time as i said community will balance itself out with how many districts you can control and hold for longer as in every open sandbox environment If it's a constant gain and loss of districts you'd never be able to recoup your ISK investment. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5778	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:49:00 - [10] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: What you propose won't cause people to enter alliances. It would cause all the serious players to quit and the vacuum would be filled by people who can't spell grabbing people out of local chat. man seriously you behave like a fortune teller how do you know that all would leave or that new players will not be able to, seriously talking about self entitlement nvm mind though... community newbs and vets would control that after some time the community playing the game would balance itself also as in every sandbox game the community always balance it self w/o any issue those artificial boundaries (timers in this case) are what makes imbalance You think the best players in the game that have spent nearly 2 years fighting in PC feel entitled? I guess I'd have to agree. I'm sure all of null sec in Eve would feel pretty entitled and would act negatively to say the least if they made mining ships, ratting ships, and mobile siphon units invincible. That's basically the same thing right? Giving the casual players the ability to completely **** all over the sandbox they've worked to build. I'd rather CCP not go from one extreme to another. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5778	Posted - 2015.01.21 17:52:00 - [11] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Zene Ren, you didn't fully read everything I said since I already addressed your counterpoints in the original post. Thor Odinson42 wrote: If you can attack instantly anytime the districts just won't matter. I can only assume that you'd need some start up ISK to even enter the fray. If your district was lost the same day you took it while you were asleep I think people would lose interest pretty quick. It would be no different than the frustration corps felt when they thought they were fighting Team X and find 15 Team Players when they enter the warbarge, except they'd log in and see they had nothing. I can picture the CEO saying, well **** that. I can tell you with 100% certainty that PC corps now aren't going to recruit 500 players to maintain their holdings. They'll just turn on their PS4 and play PS2. My point exactly. Even with a full day's notice, being attacked any time of the day is going to quickly cause issues. If we had an even distribution of players around the world it would be less of an issue, but which certain regions have small player bases that tend to clump into singular groups, whoever grabs those groups first is going to dominate. What you'll end up with is a handful of alliances dominating PC because they hold all of the players from a certain region, allowing them to freely take any district because the defenders will simply be unable to find anyone to recruit in those time zones. I mean honestly, can someone list out the remaining active PC-capable corps from Australian/Japan? How many can there be? 5? 10? Whichever alliances recruit those corps first will be holding all of the cards and we'll just have another blue waffle. To point out where he's coming from here Zene. No new to PC corps would be able to take anything from the sure to pop up super alliance during the North American prime times. Their only hope would be to hit them during Euro, Asian, or Australian prime times. But they'd quickly find out that the super alliance had locked up all the talent in that timezone as well. If CCP completely removed timers one of two things would happen: 1) ALL of the current PC community would band together to prevent the "wake up and everything is gone" scenario OR 2) CCP's most dedicated, highest spending clientele would exit the building and give up the last of the hope they had left. i took that under consideration Thor but still PC will be open for others to try and play that mode only, we can not say that everybody will consolidate to "rule them all" but the game mode will be there and underdogs will have a constant shot at playing PC where's harm in that for a start, later we can tweak that but w/o those forsaken timers and locking ready to be abused mechanic Why not start with timer mechanics and tweak them as needed? Going from what we have now to zero timers would be a horrible mistake. I can assure you as can anyone that knows me in this game that I've wanted to see PC accessible to more of the community for a long time. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5779	Posted - 2015.01.21 19:15:00 - [12] - Quote Zene Ren wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Zene Ren wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: What you propose won't cause people to enter alliances. It would cause all the serious players to quit and the vacuum would be filled by people who can't spell grabbing people out of local chat. man seriously you behave like a fortune teller how do you know that all would leave or that new players will not be able to, seriously talking about self entitlement nvm mind though... community newbs and vets would control that after some time the community playing the game would balance itself also as in every sandbox game the community always balance it self w/o any issue those artificial boundaries (timers in this case) are what makes imbalance You think the best players in the game that have spent nearly 2 years fighting in PC feel entitled? I guess I'd have to agree. I'm sure all of null sec in Eve would feel pretty entitled and would act negatively to say the least if they made mining ships, ratting ships, and mobile siphon units invincible. That's basically the same thing right? Giving the casual players the ability to completely **** all over the sandbox they've worked to build. I'd rather CCP not go from one extreme to another. there are no rules in null sec man... that is why it is called null sec no timers and locks only community owning particular system amt with man power and time availability so why should we have rules in our null sec our timers and locks?!?! it should be community power struggle not artificial boundaries... Null Sec is/was driven by timers. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5779	Posted - 2015.01.21 19:24:00 - [13] - Quote Flyingconejo wrote: Timers are not the problem. Low PC population is. Juggle with the timers all you want, in the end, it wont change anything, and PC will still be empty save for the 100-150 players that have always been there. There are not enough players to make the current system work. There are not enough players to make any of the proposed changes work. And that is because you have focused so much in making your game hard, that forgot to make it fun. For most players trying to get into PC, they get a very low Fun/Effort ratio. PC battles are the best thing this game has to offer, but for most new corps, it takes too much time to get good enough so they can start having fun with them, and they give up, never to come back. Give them an intermediate step where they can train and have fun. FW is not good enough because you can't choose your opponent, so bring back the corp battle system from the open beta, but with 16 vs 16, with both sides knowing who they are going to fight beforehand, and very low stakes beyond the equipment used. That would be fun and help people prepare for PC. And being in PC should offer something to district owners that would compel them to bother with it instead of playing in the minor, corp battle league. That's my 2 cents. Anyway, for me PC is broken at its core from the start, so any band aid you try will have very little effect. Unless you scrap it and start over from zero, you might as well leave it as is. I'd argue that the current timer mechanics are the number one reason why PC is played by so few. There is no element of surprise. In war a lesser enemy can overcome a stronger opponent if they time their attack right in an advantageous location. We can't really set ambushes in advantageous geological locations, but an element of surprise could and should be implemented. The details are the problem. People have been hung up on far reaching complexities and it appears we will get stuck with timer mechanics that only favor a Zerg. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5779	Posted - 2015.01.21 19:28:00 - [14] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: IDK, I agree and disagree at the same time. Flipping a District should be possible through raiding though much, much harder to do than to just mount a formal attack. If I am constantly raiding one of your outlying District and you never pay attention to it doesn't it make sense that I would eventually become more familiar with that District than you are? If I raid your District a dozen times over the course of a month and you have shown no activity there wouldn't it make sense that your grip on the District would decay as my raids became more frequent? By no means should it be a simple "we're going to raid this District tonight and it'll be ours tomorrow". Though if I wage a war of attrition on that District and you simply ignore it shouldn't it make sense that I would eventually be able to embezzle your profits while you still foot the bill on paper? Can raiding have a factor in weakening the defenses of a District? I don't see an issue with that. But I think the final battle that decides the ownership really needs to have more notice so both teams can make sure the best of the best are online for the big finale. I think this is the area where future tweaking could swing the pendulum of quantity vs quality. If AE is able to get a couple of squads worth of guys to log in and swing an entire war then obviously they might need to look at battles spinning up quickly while making the window of attack smaller. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5780	Posted - 2015.01.21 20:20:00 - [15] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Zene Ren wrote: man seriously hide that ego of yours as i do not mean me in my concept i mean that: people above some level of SP and ISK and with friends online ATM are simply bored to pub stomp naps in pub contracts and want to have the big boys game approachable at all times because this is the mode they want to play only ATM with timers or any similar mechanic it is impossible if noobs want to try ti too why stop then let them try they may have their ass handled to them or they may suprise defenders we do not know but the wheels of PC game mode will be always turning not leaving any interested behind artificial boundaries of timers and locks that are and in any form will be abused by "cool kids" as in eve politics win, it should be in dust bigger will dictate but the smaller will not be prevented to try to give it a whirl and test the bigger boys it is the sandbox nature, community sets the rules and bounds not a timer or locked stade like in null sec in eve only people with force set the rules what is wrong with that beside that everyone that think of himself of being able, will have open entry into PC at any given moment? new eden is harsh place if they hit those "elite skilled" self proclaimed protos it will be a lesson for them but it will be still an open mode if someone wants to play it only nothing more nothing less PC IS accessible. Especially to smaller groups. EVERYTHING you've advocated for is currently available, EXCEPT the ability to stage district attacks and have them opened on a whim. Be careful what you ask for though, if the existing PC powerhouses have the ability to stage attacks on-the-fly it will be those same smaller groups that will bear the majority of the burden. Theirs will be the districts most profitable to hit. Put it this way- We're all BankRobbers. What banks are most likely to be robbed most often, the occasional large one, with layers of security, located in the center of a metropolitan area OR the tiny podunk countrybanks dotting the countryside? Which banks will more appealing for a robbery by the strongest crews? You want to "open" PC. And I maintain it already is. Is it as easy as forming a squad and searching a PC battle in your battlefinder? No. But why should it be? Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight. Lame. PC isn't accessible. The mechanics are on the extreme spectrum as they stand currently. Not only are the mechanics such that only the best of the best can succeed, but there is currently no way to prepare for it other than by participating in PC itself. PC is the most accessible it's ever been currently because there are no rewards for ownership. If the stakes were what they were before passive ISK was removed most of the people holding districts currently would not be on the map. Most of the corps currently in PC are nowhere near ready for battles against veteran PC corps. I think the pendulum has to swing in the favor of quantity over quality for some time while more people are introduced and versed in team play. The only thing that I see that allows for this is the ability for lesser corps to surprise and zerg more powerful corps. If that's through raids or a more favorable timer mechanic then great. If new to PC corps are not allowed some level of success then it's going to fall on it's face. We can either have hardcore mode with dozens of players or we can swing it back to intermediate mode and capture a large portion of our community. As players adapt to a more serious style of gameplay the pendulum could be swung more in the other direction. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5780	Posted - 2015.01.21 20:24:00 - [16] - Quote Alaika Arbosa wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Craziest thing, this "Raiding " proposal ( which I'm not against) doesn't even scratch the surface of what PC is currently, organized matches between organized combatants. All you're proposing is the ability to have a Skirmish match, but be paid for it by the district holder. You want a departure from pubs but all you've proposed just equals another pub. The gamemode doesn't change. Only the number of people available to fight. Lame. This is exactly the problem, you don't want PC to change from the status quo. You don't want it to evolve into something more than a glorified, overly complex tournament ladder. Where is the Open World Sandbox gameplay if everything 100% revolves around sitting in a lobby waiting to fight the same 16 guys that you fight every time you attack a District because everyone just hires them as ringers? We've seen where the status quo gets us, now is the time for change. I don't think you are seeing where he is coming from. PC currently takes a lot of organization and planning. This is no different in huge nullsec groups. The problem we have here is that we are limited to 16 v 16. You can't have an open sandbox with 16 v 16. Why does it have to be hardmode or easy mode? Why can't it be somewhere in the middle? I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5780	Posted - 2015.01.21 20:30:00 - [17] - Quote Just to clarify things on what I think is going on. Current PC groups want: the same but with more ISK Soraya: Doesn't want it to be the same, but wants to keep 24 notice of battles. Adding some bells and whistles, thinks things will change. Random Dudes with no PC experience want: PS2 Is this about right? I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5780	Posted - 2015.01.21 20:37:00 - [18] - Quote Aeon Amadi wrote: Linking this proposal that I made a few pages back because there was no feedback given on it and I feel it might have been over-looked over the "Thor, Pokey, and Zene discuss whether or not timers should be a thing". Pokey has proposed something similar. I don't like the 24 hour notice. I guess I don't see much of a difference if an active PC corp is on during their prime time handling battles that happen that instant or if they are fighting battles initiated the day before. I think the biggest difference is that you'd have to have more people in your PC chat ready to go that instant vs making arrangements with people to be there the next day. My scenario seems to be the one more likely to cause current PC corps to recruit and train more players. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5781	Posted - 2015.01.21 20:59:00 - [19] - Quote el OPERATOR wrote: Alaika Arbosa wrote: This is exactly the problem, you don't want PC to change from the status quo. You don't want it to evolve into something more than a glorified, overly complex tournament ladder. Where is the Open World Sandbox gameplay if everything 100% revolves around sitting in a lobby waiting to fight the same 16 guys that you fight every time you attack a District because everyone just hires them as ringers? We've seen where the status quo gets us, now is the time for change. Any "Ownership" system will be paintable as a "Tournament Ladder". Any " Evolution" that could be even remotely considered an "evolution" needs a change NOT in PC timers but in the PC GAMEMODE. Are you tired of seeing the same 16 ringers? Maybe, just maybe, coordinate an attack (like a raid must have a defense coordinated, just spur of the moment) so that any of those terrible ringers are committed there and not available elsewhere. "Status Quo" currently has PC fully active for those not so busy crying about how PC sucks they actually play PC. Currently PC is able to be participated in by newer corps because veteran PC corps let them. I don't think the mechanics should be kept such a way that we have wars started because one corp got in trouble for taking a corporation's last district. I assume you are saying that you believe the FEC style coalitions where billions of ISK is spent mass attacking resulting in little or no territorial gains is the way for new PC corps to break into PC? I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5781	Posted - 2015.01.21 21:06:00 - [20] - Quote Ares 514 wrote: Aeon Amadi wrote: Ares 514 wrote: Personally, I support a timer window of +/- x hours and the removal of the 24/48 hours time till battle. IMO, battles should start 1 hour after the attack is launch if it falls within the timer window, otherwise the battle starts at the start of the next attack window. Battle start time should NOT be random. It should be set to exactly 1 hour after the attack (rounded to 5 mins increments say). Eh, maybe. Usually takes an hour to round everyone up and get everyone oriented to squads and what not. I'm not entirely against it but I think there should be a little more time so the defenders can actually bat-phone some people who aren't online, if necessary, rather than being completely screwed. 24 hours is excessive but 1 hour isn't nearly enough. So an hour is my personal preference and that could be tweaked, or maybe a district could be upgraded to slightly increase the amount of time you have. However, the current 24/48 hour system is way to big a notice. You should be able to look at your corp, get 16 guys together and say lets to a PC battle tonight. Not wait till the next day and find out that your missing some roles. Or to find out that the corp you were fighting has hired the #1 merc corp. People dismiss this, but when the ISK was flowing this is the way it happened. You've got a couple corps out there that started from the bottom and earned their way into relevance, but most of those have made enough connections to ensure they have access to top tier ringers as well. Ringers are a great part of Dust, but 24 notice allows for their wallets to swell and usually nobody else. It'll take a window timer with immediate attacks or a complex raiding system that discourages small groups from holding too much land. To me I think they should start with a window timer that is affected by activity, size, or whatever and have the battles start soon after an attack is initiated. As they develop a raiding system they can tweak the timers. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.

Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5796	Posted - 2015.01.21 23:51:00 - [21] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: el OPERATOR wrote: Probably because region locking automatically blues up an area based not on in-game affilitations (corps and alliances) but on out-of-game affiliations ( global player region). This, in turn, then could create WORSE bluelocks once a group has enough players spread across global regions, since the total available is restricted by region and easier to control. If I have 16 NA players who can fight on the ASIA primetime we should be able to keep whatever we are able to take, districts included. I think it was Kane who invented this term "region locking". I am not suggesting any sort of "region lock". I am suggesting the timers do not change from where they're originally seeded at, which should be scattered around the map to create a fairly varied play map. If you have 16 players who can fight on the Asian prime time you should be able to keep whatever you take, assuming you can also defend it in the Asian prime time. Horrible idea. Again the time zones didn't create the problems. The mechanics that allowed for small groups to dominate everything caused the problems. The only thing this idea would do is cause low participation time zones to farm ISK all day long. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5809	Posted - 2015.01.22 03:13:00 - [22] - Quote KA24DERT wrote: Just to be clear: Talented, skilled, and dedicated players that cluster together into cohesive organizations will ALWAYS dominate competitive games. You will not ever formulate a ruleset to make PC "More Inclusive", the best will always rise to the top along whatever rails you provide and will squeeze others out, and you will never stop that. So please do not misplace the desire of having meaningful activities for casual or lesser-skilled players into the PVP end-game of Dust. I can buy that, but how do we know where the competive level of Dust is? The way PC was released without any other form of team play. We have players more than a year experience who've never been in a position to team deploy. What if they've never joined a corp? What if they've been in a corp for 6 months that tried PC a couple times, but didn't like the mechanics? We aren't talking about a gamemode that was released with all the proper elements. Forget the SP gap, the players that had corp battle experience in corps that evolved into elite corps with over 2 years of team play experience pretty much won the game before it started with the tools made available since 5/13. I understand where you are coming from, but I think people give themselves too much credit for having a huge head start on the competition. If it doesn't become more inclusive what's the point of developing Dust anymore at all? I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5815	Posted - 2015.01.22 12:57:00 - [23] - Quote Only 5% of you play this gamemode. You other 95% are lazy!!! Nothing to do with poor NPE, lack of incentives to push team play and/or winning in pubs, nowhere to team deploy at all without spending 50 mil ISK. Makes sense. I live in Texas I hear rationale like this everyday. Usually from people missing teeth, but by God someday they are going to be rich too!! I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5819	Posted - 2015.01.22 16:47:00 - [24] - Quote TheD1CK wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Only 5% of you play this gamemode. You other 95% are lazy!!! Nothing to do with poor NPE, lack of incentives to push team play and/or winning in pubs, nowhere to team deploy at all without spending 50 mil ISK. Makes sense. I live in Texas I hear rationale like this everyday. Usually from people missing teeth, but by God someday they are going to be rich too!! ^^ I am hoping CCP have it thought out what changes they will make to make pc to go-to gamemode. As it stands, the minority of PC mercs are because it's a race to field the top 16 get paid and repeat so there has only been room left for that 5% while the others pushed aside.. I'm lost at who they should listen to - The vets that have played PC by themselves - The blues who have no idea what PC is - CPM who have no idea what this game is - D1CK's making ill-informed opinions Either way, some won't be happy. But seeing as at one stage the 5% controlled near 100% And still nothing changed shows that the change needs to come from outside whats already failed. The % that controlled 100% of MH was much smaller than that. I'm talking about the current state of PC with the 5%. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5819	Posted - 2015.01.22 16:52:00 - [25] - Quote bigolenuts wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: Only 5% of you play this gamemode. You other 95% are lazy!!! Nothing to do with poor NPE, lack of incentives to push team play and/or winning in pubs, nowhere to team deploy at all without spending 50 mil ISK. Makes sense. I live in Texas I hear rationale like this everyday. Usually from people missing teeth, but by God someday they are going to be rich too!! My "someday" has been here for years. Everything you mentioned above, incentives, team play, etc the people in PC now accomplished. I do understand your complaint. You are salty. You've been at the game forever and have yet to find yourself or corp relevant in any way, shape or form. I do understand changes need to be made. I will agree, PC is not perfect and hard to get into. But by making the path easy what are you really accomplishing? It doesn't make sense to me to hand feed people/corps into it. I am not without ideas on how to make it better. Don't think I am just shooting it down without having something else. I'm just not good at relaying the idea to paper. Over a year ago I had a CPM member FINALLY agree to listen and all that was said was, "would take to much coding and they won't do it". Never heard anything else about it. But, continue taking shots at me for being elitist, having no teeth, etc, etc, etc. I wish you could be 25% as successful as me and have a tenth of the smile I do lol Wasn't taking shots at you. I was referring to the people in Texas that are missing teeth driving a 20 year old pickup but support policies that hurt them and benefit the 5%. I own a construction business in Texas and do pretty well for myself. I'm in the 5%, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to the plight of others. It's better for the 5% to have the poors doing well for themselves because they are able to use that money on things that further enrich the 5%. Same applies to PC. I may not be part of a corporation that can take over everything at the drop of the hat, but being in the 5% isn't anything to complain about. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5819	Posted - 2015.01.22 16:57:00 - [26] - Quote Cat Merc wrote: Another useful thing would be the ability to mark yourself as "Active" by going to the battle finder and pressing on that PC match. That way people who are organizing it would have a list of people ready to play, rather than have to ask around and pester people all the time. Could also have a temporary chat for each specific match that would serve a similar purpose. Platoon or Team Builder UI would seem to make this much easier. Whomever is building the team doesn't have to ask each squad leader 15x how many people he has or keep track on a piece of paper. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5820	Posted - 2015.01.22 19:01:00 - [27] - Quote bigolenuts wrote: The point I am trying to make it is; it seems the game is catering to those who do not want to put the effort in to meet other like-minded players, practice, make allegiances and/or grind it out like those before them did. Again, I can agree changes need to be made. But see how I was responded to here? As soon as I didn't agree I was stupid, not worth carrying on with etc, etc, etc. THAT is the type of player that is being catered to. I don't recall anyone just inviting me into PC. I played a lot, met people and got better. How does that not work now? Hell, there is even FW to practice PC on now. The best we had back then was 8v8 corp battles. Take NS for example. Not spoken to anyone in that corps for months but it is shameful what is happening to them. They are being forced to give up their district or have them taken away by CCP for playing the game the way it was intended. Changes are needed, agreed. But don't make it easy. But the people that pushed through the bad mechanics and lack of corporation interfaces, logistical tools, training grounds etc are outliers. Hence the low population in PC. We ALL complained that CCP rushed Uprising, we complained about the mechanics of PC when they were released. You yourself have quit the game. If things were so great you wouldn't have left. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5820	Posted - 2015.01.22 19:19:00 - [28] - Quote IMPAIRS YOUR ABILITY wrote: Incoming sports metaphor: Dust currently is like high school football with a variety, JV, c squad mentality where JV and c squad get to play when the varsity players finally start to hate dust and take a break. Anyone who played football and can appreciate that also remembers pop warner little league. Where every Saturday am the park was filled with a dozen games going on at the same time. The difference was EVERYONE PLAYED in the end the good kids still went undefeated. Why is that such a bad model? Roman tried to use the NFL as a metaphor. I said it would be more like the NFL having had a beta. The only place prior to launch for people to play as a team was beta. After launch the only time you could play as a team was vs an NFL team. Despite this clearly being the situation for Dust players I still got the "we are the greatest video game players in history" routine. I take nothing away from the work PC corps put in. I know firsthand, but I also know what it's when there are proper rewards for PC. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.
Thor Odinson42 Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 5821	Posted - 2015.01.22 19:33:00 - [29] - Quote bigolenuts wrote: Thor Odinson42 wrote: bigolenuts wrote: The point I am trying to make it is; it seems the game is catering to those who do not want to put the effort in to meet other like-minded players, practice, make allegiances and/or grind it out like those before them did. Again, I can agree changes need to be made. But see how I was responded to here? As soon as I didn't agree I was stupid, not worth carrying on with etc, etc, etc. THAT is the type of player that is being catered to. I don't recall anyone just inviting me into PC. I played a lot, met people and got better. How does that not work now? Hell, there is even FW to practice PC on now. The best we had back then was 8v8 corp battles. Take NS for example. Not spoken to anyone in that corps for months but it is shameful what is happening to them. They are being forced to give up their district or have them taken away by CCP for playing the game the way it was intended. Changes are needed, agreed. But don't make it easy. But the people that pushed through the bad mechanics and lack of corporation interfaces, logistical tools, training grounds etc are outliers. Hence the low population in PC. We ALL complained that CCP rushed Uprising, we complained about the mechanics of PC when they were released. You yourself have quit the game. If things were so great you wouldn't have left. I left because I felt betrayed by CCP. Remember Fanfest 14? The majority of AE. leaving also played a large part in my leaving. TBH, I always liked the game. It was bad, but very playable IMO. I've been spotted around again the past couple of weeks here and there. I sent you in-game messaages I thought lol There has to be a better way to get people into PC aside from just giving them the path. Tiered is my idea and I think it would work if it could be coded. Get with me in game and I'll explain it. To much for me to type and I don't do a very good job of putting idea to paper. It would get every player in the game involved, protect lower level players from upper players and still provide rewards. I'm the same way. I think PC dudes see what I type and think I'm wanting Candyland. That is not the case. I'm selling Templar Codes. 3 of 4 remaining. 200 mil ISK. Message me in game.

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