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Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
300
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Posted - 2015.01.14 18:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
xavier zor wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:LOL. You didn't get past the first paragraph before admitting you think you should be immune to an AV. Nice job. You should never EVER be impossible to take down by a single other player. Ever. you should. A tank is a tank. A mercenary is a mercenary. Your view is so one-minded and skewed, just express your hate for tanks some other way. A single-repped madrugar should be able to withstand a constant swarmer Soraya Xel wrote:The first paragraph here is the key point. I used to commonly lose five or six 200k suits trying to kill a single ADS. And failing.
But the reality is costs can be tweaked later, so they're irrelevant for balance. The point is making the gameplay engaging and fun. And vehicles not dying isn't actually fun for anyone. If you lose 5-6 suits, you are doing it wrong.... and besides, how fun is it to an ADS pilot who can get maybe 1-2 kills before a swarmer notices him, and he has to retreat? Don't forget the bloody redline railguns/railtanks that one-shot my python, 2 shot my incubus (as in, i get shot once, knocked around then by the time i stabilize and start thrusting upwards he has launched his second shot and i'm dead)
So.... a single rep madruger should be able to withstand a swarmer?
Madrugers can fit 3 reppers, so you are basically telling me it should take 4 players with AV to kill a madruger? Do you actually believe this?
As to your "how fun is it to an ADS pilot yadda yadda": How much fun do you think that swarmer is having to scramble around trying not to have his ass handed to him by all the other infantry? Hes already had his not-fun, now he sees a vehicle and its time for HIM to have fun, and time for the ADS to have not-fun.
I dont know where this myth comes from that AV fits are some kind of ninja ghost assassin fit who can easily avoid all threats and kill vehicles by looking at them. The reality is that they spend the entire game dodging or fending off or dying to infantry all the while hoping some vehicle will stop by that he can shoot at. And he probably wont be able to kill it unless that vehicle makes alot of mistakes. Even if AVers have the freedom to actively pursue a vehicle across the map, the most likely event is that the vehicle will not die and will still make some kills, it will just be slightly limited in effectiveness by the threat the AV guy represents.
When I play my vehicle alt, I am nearly never killed by anything but a tank, its just too easy to stay alive against anything else because mobility and killing power is so incredibly skewed toward the vehicle. If you are dying alot to AV and you are good it means there is a ton of AV, and if you are dying alot to single AV players, then you just ******* suck. |
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
300
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 20:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Toobar Zoobar wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:xavier zor wrote:Soraya Xel wrote:LOL. You didn't get past the first paragraph before admitting you think you should be immune to an AV. Nice job. You should never EVER be impossible to take down by a single other player. Ever. you should. A tank is a tank. A mercenary is a mercenary. Your view is so one-minded and skewed, just express your hate for tanks some other way. A single-repped madrugar should be able to withstand a constant swarmer Soraya Xel wrote:The first paragraph here is the key point. I used to commonly lose five or six 200k suits trying to kill a single ADS. And failing.
But the reality is costs can be tweaked later, so they're irrelevant for balance. The point is making the gameplay engaging and fun. And vehicles not dying isn't actually fun for anyone. If you lose 5-6 suits, you are doing it wrong.... and besides, how fun is it to an ADS pilot who can get maybe 1-2 kills before a swarmer notices him, and he has to retreat? Don't forget the bloody redline railguns/railtanks that one-shot my python, 2 shot my incubus (as in, i get shot once, knocked around then by the time i stabilize and start thrusting upwards he has launched his second shot and i'm dead) So.... a single rep madruger should be able to withstand a swarmer? Madrugers can fit 3 reppers, so you are basically telling me it should take 4 players with AV to kill a madruger? Do you actually believe this? As to your "how fun is it to an ADS pilot yadda yadda": How much fun do you think that swarmer is having while hes scrambling around trying not to have his ass handed to him by all the other infantry? Hes already had his not-fun, now he sees a vehicle and its time for HIM to have fun, and time for the ADS to have not-fun. I dont know where this myth comes from that AV fits are some kind of ninja ghost assassin fit who can easily avoid all threats and kill vehicles by looking at them. The reality is that they spend the entire game dodging or fending off or dying to infantry all the while hoping some vehicle will stop by that he can shoot at. And he probably wont be able to kill it unless that vehicle makes alot of mistakes. Even if AVers have the freedom to actively pursue a vehicle across the map, the most likely event is that the vehicle will not die and will still make some kills, it will just be slightly limited in effectiveness by the threat the AV guy represents. When I play my vehicle alt, I am nearly never killed by anything but a tank, its just too easy to stay alive against anything else because mobility and killing power is so incredibly skewed toward the vehicle. If you are dying alot to AV and you are good it means there is a ton of AV, and if you are dying alot to single AV players, then you just ******* suck. "When an AVer sees an ADS it's time for him to have fun and the pilot to have not fun". This is why I have so little respect for so many of you AV fanatics. You keep throwing BS like this at the argument. No fight? No options for the ADS pilot? He just has to take some damage, give AV ass some easy points, then fly away? Ridiculous. And this is a point I have made before. It should NEVER be about the kill. How can you demand that you should be able to kill the 500,000isk 9000 HP HAV with ease? What the hell is the point of a tank if it can't be a tank?! It's just BS after BS after BS. You complain that they kill infantry to well. You complain that they can rep too fast. And now you complain that they have the ability to retreat and that prevents you from getting the oh so over rated kill. **** K/D.
I don't care about K/D. I'm not an AV fanatic. I hate using AV because its **** and ineffective. I hate using vehicles because they are boring. I also dont care much about WP, so talking about how vehicles are win point pinatas doesnt really get alot of sympathy with me, and implying that firing swarm launchers at an ADS is somehow "easy points" when the ADS could kick the **** out of the swarmer if the pilot had any skill at all and ignoring the rest of the AV players experience where they constantly get **** on by other infantry also isnt going to get you any sympathy.
As for no options for the ADS pilot, I'd love to see flare modules and **** like that, but Im not a developer, so when I talk about balance in this game I talk about how things are NOW, not how things are in some mythical magical fairy land where everything is fun and balanced already. The fact is that vehicles are way too hard to kill with an AV fit, and vehicles are way too expensive to engage in risky play.
I'd love to see vehicles being more disposable. Lower ISK prices so they are comparable to dropsuits, rebalance so that AV is more effective, remove swarm launcher lock on crap and give me some AV that requires aim, and you have more fun for both sides. Now tanks and drop ships can be killed, but arent so expensive that you cant afford to lose them, now you have AV that works, and is actually able to kill the thing its designed to kill. More fun for everyone.
P.S. "What the hell is the point of a tank if it can't be a tank?!" Quick aside to address this misconception: tanks are not invincible. In reality the main battle tank is a pretty fragile piece of equipment, it is largely immune to small arms fire, however weapons designed to destroy tanks exist and are incredibly effective unless there is a huge disparity in technology level (e.g. cold war era RPG vs. modern abrams tank). I'm not sure where this expectation of being stupidly resistant to damage, even damage coming from weapons that exist solely to kill vehicles comes from, but I dont think its a good expectation and its a horrible one from a balancing standpoint. |
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
302
|
Posted - 2015.01.14 21:37:00 -
[3] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:
However I don't then think I'd be far wrong in suggesting that everything on a battlefield can and will kill and infantryman.
Everything except the swarm launcher can kill an infantryman on the dust battlefield, and the swarm cant only because of lock on requirement to fire, I have no problem with this fact and I dont think many people do, so Im not sure how this sentence informs dust balance or this discussion.
True Adamance wrote:
I don't say this to play tit for tat since its pointless to do so but you do need to keep it in context. HAV in Dust are not tanks. They do not function in the same role and are not equipped with the same types of weapons.
In dust they seem to function either as mobile artillery, close infantry support (more similar to an APC without much carrying capacity with a cannon than an MBT), or as an actual tank (penetration of enemy lines and exploitation thereof). As mobile artillery they are extremely effective, as close infantry support they are very effective if used properly (if the pilot doesnt feed himself to AV they can sit there and support infantry all day), and as a MBT it isnt super effective because using it in this manner exposes you to a ton of risk (actively pushing into enemy AV and other tanks) and there are no supply lines/soft targets you can hit in the rear to really affect the battle and the front lines are rarely "lines" in any sense in the first place.
True Adamance wrote:blah blah blah scooby doo where are youdly scoodly doo
I deleted the rest and Ill just reply to it all saying it would be really cool having an accurate damage model of armor vs. incoming penetrators to play with in this game. If I could expect to take a plasma cannon and stuff it up a HAVs ass and kill it in one shot, I would be fine with the front end of those tanks being largely invincible.
However with the mechanics in play today, the HAVs are way too hard to kill from any angle and it just makes AV feel absolutely worthless unless the HAV pilot is or is acting like a moron.
And again I have experienced this from both sides, I use vehicles and AV, Im not trying to **** on one party or the other, Im trying to make a discussion/environment where both can have some actual fun.
Right now vehicles are boring and AV is crap. |
Vesta Opalus
T.H.I.R.D R.O.C.K
General Tso's Alliance
302
|
Posted - 2015.01.15 16:08:00 -
[4] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:True Adamance wrote:
However I don't then think I'd be far wrong in suggesting that everything on a battlefield can and will kill and infantryman.
Everything except the swarm launcher can kill an infantryman on the dust battlefield, and the swarm cant only because of lock on requirement to fire, I have no problem with this fact and I dont think many people do, so Im not sure how this sentence informs dust balance or this discussion. True Adamance wrote:
I don't say this to play tit for tat since its pointless to do so but you do need to keep it in context. HAV in Dust are not tanks. They do not function in the same role and are not equipped with the same types of weapons.
In dust they seem to function either as mobile artillery, close infantry support (more similar to an APC without much carrying capacity with a cannon than an MBT), or as an actual tank (penetration of enemy lines and exploitation thereof). As mobile artillery they are extremely effective, as close infantry support they are very effective if used properly (if the pilot doesnt feed himself to AV they can sit there and support infantry all day), and as a MBT it isnt super effective because using it in this manner exposes you to a ton of risk (actively pushing into enemy AV and other tanks) and there are no supply lines/soft targets you can hit in the rear to really affect the battle and the front lines are rarely "lines" in any sense in the first place. True Adamance wrote:blah blah blah scooby doo where are youdly scoodly doo I deleted the rest and Ill just reply to it all saying it would be really cool having an accurate damage model of armor vs. incoming penetrators to play with in this game. If I could expect to take a plasma cannon and stuff it up a HAVs ass and kill it in one shot, I would be fine with the front end of those tanks being largely invincible. However with the mechanics in play today, the HAVs are way too hard to kill from any angle and it just makes AV feel absolutely worthless unless the HAV pilot is or is acting like a moron. And again I have experienced this from both sides, I use vehicles and AV, Im not trying to **** on one party or the other, Im trying to make a discussion/environment where both can have some actual fun. Right now vehicles are boring and AV is crap. Edited to add: RE: mobile artillery usage, it would be really cool if there was an indirect fire turret available, to lob some kind of explosive round into an area. Might be hell to balance though. Mobile Artillery? Tank Guns don't have noticeable splash damage so I'm not sure how can they bombard anything without considerable luck or ******* great aim. Certainly one of the things I like about BF4 (and I never thought I'd say this) is that they allow me to chose an Ammo type. That can be HEAT, AP, and Sabot which have varying muzzle velocities and explosive/AV profiles. I personally like Sabots for their high muzzle velocity and the HMG for any pesky infantry that gets too close.
You dont need splash damage to kill stuff, I don't know why people think its so hard to kill infantry with the large rail turret, unless someone is actively strafing to avoid you it doesnt take much skill to get them, and if you hit them at all you get a kill unless you have a crap turret and the target is a heavily tanked sentinel. |
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