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Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 64	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:38:00 - [1] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Cost is irrelevant to balance, Vodar. Game is 16v16. That means the game is balanced if 16 people equal 16 people. Why do you think you're worth more than the AV player? (Hint: You're not, and you're wrong.) Cost. Is. Revelevent. Size. Is Relevant. Indeed what is the point in a currency if cost is irrelevant? Have a go at thinking about that for a second will you. And balance my friend is what makes games boring. Should I expect to be able to kill a titan in a frigate in EVE? No. No matter how much I shoot at it. I wouldn't even take on a battleship. The titan not only costs a few million times what a frigate costs, but is also several million times the mass. If someone who thinks a top end HAV shouldn't be able to tank a militia swarm launcher, started playing EVE, they would probably start whining that they can't kill all the battleships in their rookie ship. That's the analogy here. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 67	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:47:00 - [2] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Thread is adorable. A coalescent of all of the worst arguments vehicle users use to justify being overpowered. <3 A CPM should at least try to be somewhat moderately impartial and respectful of others. And not to be too bias. I see you don't care much for that. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 69	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:52:00 - [3] - Quote LUGMOS wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Thread is adorable. A coalescent of all of the worst arguments vehicle users use to justify being overpowered. <3 Alright, this got out of hand fast (surprised it was encited by a CPM O.o) So let me just say this: People need to look at their conduct before posting ANYTHING, especially in a stance where people look up to you. Kinda disappointing that nobody read the rest and just blew hot air out of their ass... Agreed Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 69	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:56:00 - [4] - Quote Vitantur Nothus wrote: Vodar 540 wrote: it should not even be conceivable for a sole minmando to take down a ADS. "Can I please be immune to my counter?" There was a time when the ADS could literally hover above and ignore a proto swarmer. It wasn't a good time for anyone other than pilots. If you sit and take 3 volleys then wait around long enough for him to reload and volley more, then you've no grounds for complaint. It is not difficult to get out of a swarmer's range. If I see an enemy ADS using a missile launcher, I get in an ADS with a railgun. Same with the HAV. That's a counter that this guy is not requesting to be nerfed. I guess the only problem you have with that is that it's too much effort for you. You want the easy way. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 69	Posted - 2015.01.12 17:57:00 - [5] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: LUGMOS wrote: Kinda disappointing that nobody read the rest and just blew hot air out of their ass... I actually did read the rest. It just got funnier from there though. He wants a DS with a pre-fitted cloak, he wants vehicles to spawn on the ground, and he wants vehicles' defenses buffed, and probably a couple other things designed to ensure he cannot ever die. Have you never actually tried to kill a vehicle with another vehicle? Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 72	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:38:00 - [6] - Quote Duke Noobiam wrote: Your tank may cost 3 times more than that AV fit, but AV is likely to die 3 times more than you. The cost argument is only valid if you take average loss into account, not a single loss comparison. Right now, the most a single AV player (even a proto minmando with proto swarms prof 5 and dual complex damage mods) can do against any competent tanker or dropship pilot is force them to retreat. Kills occur when the tanker or dropship pilot stick around too long and don't kill the AV player first. So the best AV fit in the game can make you retreat while you can kill 90% of infantry players with impunity. If anything, other types of AV need a boost, in no way do tanks need a buff. I don't see how it matters if the tanker dies or not. The AVer gets pretty wood WP for simply damaging the vehicle. How do you think that it is reasonable to demand that you are given the means to kill a proto HAV with any degree of ease. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 77	Posted - 2015.01.12 18:56:00 - [7] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: There was a time when the ADS could literally hover above and ignore a proto swarmer. You obviously don't have any experience in an ADS. hey buddy still going to pretend that you know what you're talking about? I don't know why... you don't just play CoD. Seems more your type of game. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 77	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:03:00 - [8] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Duke Noobiam wrote: Your tank may cost 3 times more than that AV fit, but AV is likely to die 3 times more than you. The cost argument is only valid if you take average loss into account, not a single loss comparison. Right now, the most a single AV player (even a proto minmando with proto swarms prof 5 and dual complex damage mods) can do against any competent tanker or dropship pilot is force them to retreat. Kills occur when the tanker or dropship pilot stick around too long and don't kill the AV player first. So the best AV fit in the game can make you retreat while you can kill 90% of infantry players with impunity. If anything, other types of AV need a boost, in no way do tanks need a buff. The first paragraph here is the key point. I used to commonly lose five or six 200k suits trying to kill a single ADS. And failing. But the reality is costs can be tweaked later, so they're irrelevant for balance. The point is making the gameplay engaging and fun. And vehicles not dying isn't actually fun for anyone. I think I've figured you out... YES! YES I THINK I HAVE!!! OMG I CAN HARDLY BELIEVE MY OWN GENIUS!!! You have an unhealthy obsession with your K/D ratio. Yeah, sorry to break the news to you, I know it must be hard news to stomach. I knew a few guys who had that problem, they had to get therapy and everything. Don't worry buddy you'll pull through. Just stay strong! Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 77	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:06:00 - [9] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Vitantur Nothus wrote: There was a time when the ADS could literally hover above and ignore a proto swarmer. You obviously don't have any experience in an ADS. hey buddy still going to pretend that you know what you're talking about? I don't know why... you don't just play CoD. Seems more your type of game. why dont you just be a better tanker? if i can survive with a myron why can you with a tank? and no i actually refuse to play that crappy game, never have never will. Don't worry man I'm pretty good at surviving. That's actually the easy part. Now the hard part is being of any real use on the battle field. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 77	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:14:00 - [10] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Vodar 540 wrote: Duke Noobiam wrote: . If anything, other types of AV need a boost, in no way do tanks need a buff. I think this disproves you pocket rocket girl i never said i was right i ask if i missed it, and besides like i sad i was talking about threads in GD like "the problem with vehicles and lack of purpose....and av " or Daily swarm QQ" or Here's the deal people (making tanks relevent again) or Vehicles situation. or Is it me or Swarm Launchers are ridiculous? havent seen one with something like "AV buff needed tankers are too OP " Go back 6 months and the forums were infested with those threads. Then all the cry babies got what they wanted and stopped crying. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.

Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 81	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:33:00 - [11] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Don't worry man I'm pretty good at surviving. That's actually the easy part. Now the hard part is being of any real use on the battle field. that's nice then why the QQ? i dont QQ when i cant kill a tank or a DS/ADS or when a hvy in his tank drives up to me and blaps me and hops back in? wait does this count as QQ ?, i understand not having a use on the battle field it sucks but complain about AV isnt going to give you a use on the field. Infantry take the hack points. Infantry kill most clones. Infantry ultimately win the battle. What do vehicles do? Or better question what do you think vehicles should be doing? The LAV is spawned at the start as a mobility aid for heavies then forgotten about. The DS is spawned at the start of match, flies onto a tower then is also forgotten about. The ADS flies around a bit maybe farms some installations, shoots maybe 5 or 6 infantry then gets shot at by swarms then has to fly away possibly for the rest of the match. The HAV cowers in its redline and waits to see if an enemy calls in a HAV of their own so that they actually have something to shoot at. I could try killing some infantry with a large blaster but that thing is so ineffective at killing stuff now what's the point. And so as you can see all the serious vehicles are irrelevant. They can't even hold their own ground. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 84	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:42:00 - [12] - Quote Atiim wrote: Nvm, thread is dead. yawn you don't understand what I meant I see. Lacking a few brain cells are you? I thought the EVE online analogy would have made it clear what I meant, oh well. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 87	Posted - 2015.01.12 19:54:00 - [13] - Quote Atiim wrote: Vodar 540 wrote: Quite frankly I am severely disapointed with this thread it was meant to be a discussion on how to improve the game, but yet again all the AV people came in here to start whining and fight against change. Actually, what happened is that an AVer offered a rebuttal to your premise, than you offered a counter-argument while also claiming that I'm a biased [evil] AVer who doesn't know what it's like to be a Pilot (which is false, as I've been piloting vehicles for over a year now). Then vehicle Pilots (mainly Stupid Blueberry, Toolbar Zoobar, and Spkr) decided to begin flaming your thread. The only AVers I see here is me (who only made one slightly off-topic statement), Breakin Stuff (who made only one speculation), and Soraya Xel (who was abrasive, yet still constructive). It's okay to not like AVers, but don't blame your problems on them when they're not the source. I've been piloting vehicles for over 2 years. I remember the chrome days and I have also played EVE. And it is with that experience that I realized vehicles in this game could have been something truly unique and it is this that frustrates me. And I personally don't blame the AVers all that much (although that 3rd swarm volley wtf). I mostly blame the game modes. Again if perhaps you played EVE, which i'm assuming you haven't, then maybe you'll see the light. Know what I mean? Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 88	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:00:00 - [14] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: First off i have been playing since closed beta, If you were ever a pilot, you'd know it's not easy. and have done just about every role i could in this game. See above about piloting. You mentioned that you were being attacked by a single swarmer how do you know that was so? A single swarm dishes out thousands worth of damage in 3 volleys. The only way you're able to tell it's multiple people is when you blow up within 2 seconds. it take 3 seconds to lock One of the biggest lies I've ever seen here about the "difficulty" of using AV. MLT swarm lock-on is 1.4 seconds. At level 5, it's just slightly longer than one second. The math has been done. bout 1.5 to reestablish lock box and another 3 seconds to relock to fire another swarm volly plus flight time, See above, stop lying. thats roughly about 7-8 seconds in between vollies, See above, stop lying. the shield booster takes a second for it to pulse and restart recharging the shields. The recharge stops if the vehicle takes damage. i do not know how you fly That's because you're not a pilot. but i have 2 different fittings the python and the myron Clearly not. that i use one for troop transport and battle platform where i depend on my gunners to target ground troops and i just worry about flying. Swarms still annihilate shield ships. my python is more of a glass cannon It's far more glass than cannon. which i use to cover my squad mates on the ground, once AV appears my squad moves in and takes them out if possible Assaults have a sidearm, heavies have a sidearm, scouts have a sidearm and cloak, commandos have 2 light weapons, logis are screwed except for the Amarr. but at that point im already out of the hot zone. No you're not, because swarms have a max range of 400m. There have been times when I think im out of the hot zone just to be pegged by more AV. See above You also mentioned that tanks shouldnt have to fear AV then what would the role of AV be? AV should be a deterrent. There's a big difference between accessing PRO AV with a little over 1mil SP, and accessing complex vehicle mods with 12mil SP. Also a huge ISK difference. Its anti vehicle, it is supposed to be a threat it is supposed to make vehicles back off, Swarms have a max range of 400m, as well as ignoring hills and obstacles. but killing them 100% of the time every time no and thats where player skill comes into play. My experience matters little in the face of PRO AV. My AV fit is a proto minmando with 2 proto swarms and a repper. And you still can't destroy vehicles? Looks like the problem isn't OP vehicles or weak AV. i stick as close a possible to my squad and act a a medic since the only thing can hurt are vehicles but in return my squad tries to keep reds off of me while i rep them and in turn when a DS/ADS or tank shows up i protect them. since that suit is nothing but AV why shouldnt i be able to keep a vehicle back if not destroy it depending on skill of pilot/ AVer? You rep blue dots in a commando suit? Again, your problem isn't OP vehicles or UP AV. I agree that people who camp roof tops suck [Getting the high ground isn't fair? lol[/i] ( i admit i do it from time to time but only do it when im bored and with forge gun to practice aiming at moving targets) It's essential to locking down objectives, and denying ground and air vehicles. but how is that any different than corps that run nothing but proto gear? Infantry can hack objectives, and their suits cost less than a well-fit vehicle. proto scouts? Snipers in red lines? just because you feel that its bull **** it dosent make it so. A cloaked scout that can fire 2 shotgun rounds before the cloak drops is little risk, all reward. A redline sniper that's really far in the redline is little risk, all reward. i Admit im not the best pilot or tanker Seems you're not a pilot at all. ( i can keep my DS/ADS alive longer than i can a tank) See above-mentioned 400m swarms. but i find it that when i get killed it because im not paying attention or just being a derpy derp, Doesn't matter if you are or aren't paying attention, a pair of Minmandos is kicking out far more than enough damage to destroy a vehicle in 4 seconds. until you can actually answer the question in this thread anything you say is null, you have yet to give a single example of how to improve vehicles all you have said is that AV is OP and it appears that's all you can do. Yeah you should soooooooooo be a lawyer, you'd be so awesome at that. Cuz you know you're so good at 'backing people into corners' and repeating the same BS questions over and over again and trying to make it seem like you know what you're talking about. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 88	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:20:00 - [15] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Don't worry man I'm pretty good at surviving. That's actually the easy part. Now the hard part is being of any real use on the battle field. that's nice then why the QQ? i dont QQ when i cant kill a tank or a DS/ADS or when a hvy in his tank drives up to me and blaps me and hops back in? wait does this count as QQ ?, i understand not having a use on the battle field it sucks but complain about AV isnt going to give you a use on the field. Infantry take the hack points. Infantry kill most clones. Infantry ultimately win the battle. What do vehicles do? Or better question what do you think vehicles should be doing? The LAV is spawned at the start as a mobility aid for heavies then forgotten about. The DS is spawned at the start of match, flies onto a tower then is also forgotten about. The ADS flies around a bit maybe farms some installations, shoots maybe 5 or 6 infantry then gets shot at by swarms then has to fly away possibly for the rest of the match. The HAV cowers in its redline and waits to see if an enemy calls in a HAV of their own so that they actually have something to shoot at. I could try killing some infantry with a large blaster but that thing is so ineffective at killing stuff now what's the point. And so as you can see all the serious vehicles are irrelevant. They can't even hold their own ground. if thats the issue you have finding a role to perform then what does that have to do with AV being "OP" yes i agree there need to be more for vehicles to do but blaming that AV is "OP" isnt going to solve it. Ok lets say AV isnt a issue what then? what would be a acceptable amount of time? people? before you get destroyed? should you be allowed to even be destroyed? its a tricky thing to do finding something for every role to do, some roles are easier than others. My gunnlogi doesn't mind AV. Im fine with that. Actually heres a list: Buff armor peppers by 15% Reduce active vehicle module (hardeners) recharge by 20% Reduce after-burner and fuel injector recharge by 50% Some lock on warnings for swarms. My incubus should have the capacity to brawl with at the very least one swarm launcher user. (so the 3rd volley. Either that goes or I get an ECM module) The tier 2 HAVs better be real tough. skirmish 1.0 Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 88	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:30:00 - [16] - Quote Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: Pocket Rocket Girl wrote: First off i have been playing since closed beta, If you were ever a pilot, you'd know it's not easy. and have done just about every role i could in this game. See above about piloting. You mentioned that you were being attacked by a single swarmer how do you know that was so? A single swarm dishes out thousands worth of damage in 3 volleys. The only way you're able to tell it's multiple people is when you blow up within 2 seconds. it take 3 seconds to lock One of the biggest lies I've ever seen here about the "difficulty" of using AV. MLT swarm lock-on is 1.4 seconds. At level 5, it's just slightly longer than one second. The math has been done. bout 1.5 to reestablish lock box and another 3 seconds to relock to fire another swarm volly plus flight time, See above, stop lying. thats roughly about 7-8 seconds in between vollies, See above, stop lying. the shield booster takes a second for it to pulse and restart recharging the shields. The recharge stops if the vehicle takes damage. i do not know how you fly That's because you're not a pilot. but i have 2 different fittings the python and the myron Clearly not. that i use one for troop transport and battle platform where i depend on my gunners to target ground troops and i just worry about flying. Swarms still annihilate shield ships. my python is more of a glass cannon It's far more glass than cannon. which i use to cover my squad mates on the ground, once AV appears my squad moves in and takes them out if possible Assaults have a sidearm, heavies have a sidearm, scouts have a sidearm and cloak, commandos have 2 light weapons, logis are screwed except for the Amarr. but at that point im already out of the hot zone. No you're not, because swarms have a max range of 400m. There have been times when I think im out of the hot zone just to be pegged by more AV. See above You also mentioned that tanks shouldnt have to fear AV then what would the role of AV be? AV should be a deterrent. There's a big difference between accessing PRO AV with a little over 1mil SP, and accessing complex vehicle mods with 12mil SP. Also a huge ISK difference. Its anti vehicle, it is supposed to be a threat it is supposed to make vehicles back off, Swarms have a max range of 400m, as well as ignoring hills and obstacles. but killing them 100% of the time every time no and thats where player skill comes into play. My experience matters little in the face of PRO AV. My AV fit is a proto minmando with 2 proto swarms and a repper. And you still can't destroy vehicles? Looks like the problem isn't OP vehicles or weak AV. i stick as close a possible to my squad and act a a medic since the only thing can hurt are vehicles but in return my squad tries to keep reds off of me while i rep them and in turn when a DS/ADS or tank shows up i protect them. since that suit is nothing but AV why shouldnt i be able to keep a vehicle back if not destroy it depending on skill of pilot/ AVer? You rep blue dots in a commando suit? Again, your problem isn't OP vehicles or UP AV. I agree that people who camp roof tops suck [Getting the high ground isn't fair? lol[/i] ( i admit i do it from time to time but only do it when im bored and with forge gun to practice aiming at moving targets) It's essential to locking down objectives, and denying ground and air vehicles. but how is that any different than corps that run nothing but proto gear? Infantry can hack objectives, and their suits cost less than a well-fit vehicle. proto scouts? Snipers in red lines? just because you feel that its bull **** it dosent make it so. A cloaked scout that can fire 2 shotgun rounds before the cloak drops is little risk, all reward. A redline sniper that's really far in the redline is little risk, all reward. i Admit im not the best pilot or tanker Seems you're not a pilot at all. ( i can keep my DS/ADS alive longer than i can a tank) See above-mentioned 400m swarms. but i find it that when i get killed it because im not paying attention or just being a derpy derp, Doesn't matter if you are or aren't paying attention, a pair of Minmandos is kicking out far more than enough damage to destroy a vehicle in 4 seconds. until you can actually answer the question in this thread anything you say is null, you have yet to give a single example of how to improve vehicles all you have said is that AV is OP and it appears that's all you can do. Yeah you should soooooooooo be a lawyer, you'd be so awesome at that. Cuz you know you're so good at 'backing people into corners' and repeating the same BS questions over and over again and trying to make it seem like you know what you're talking about. well if he actually answered the question which he never did i can ask you the same thats in the thread. i would like to know maybe something can finally be done instead of QQ AV or QQ tanks/ADS Give me a capacitor which powers both guns and modules. Let my modules be active indefinitely thus giving me the ability to manage them with more depth. Then it becomes a mini game of balancing offence v. defence. That's what I really want. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 89	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:44:00 - [17] - Quote True Adamance wrote: [quote=Toobar Zoobar] You have to be very aware that you can't easily make a cap stable fit in EVE with Active Modules. Especially not the more powerful ones and the more useful ones that we currently take for granted. For starters I didn't say anything about being cap stable. So what if it isn't cap stable, as long as I get more time with my hardeners on. More time with my afterburners on. I would like to be rewarded for being efficient with my guns and modules for once. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 89	Posted - 2015.01.12 20:48:00 - [18] - Quote Breakin Stuff wrote: Vodar 540 wrote: Are you just completely stupid? all the AV people who have posted on this thread have just been complete asses because they think that AV should be a million times more powerfull than a... I lost interest here. Quit assuming you can read my mind. You can't and you're wrong, and historically HAV drivers can't read because they see someone who's picked up an AV weapon once and immediately conclude that YOU'RE TRYING TO RUIN MY PLAYSTYLE! The sheer idiocy and tinfoil I see running RAMPANT in this thread is pure magic, to the point where I'm beginning to think that someone who actually despises HAVs and wants them run out of existence looked at the HAV thread, noted that progress is being made and had a goddamn panic attack thinking "If they make progress and come to a consensus I'll have to deal with HAVs pissing me off again! How can I make all vehicle drivers look like complete douches so they never get anything good again?" Just when we're looking at what, three potentially viable proposals intended to make Vehicles not a colossal turd in the works, and then THIS crap comes up. It's this kind of crap that distracts from fixing the actual problem, and gets people rabid, like idiots, and then causes them to run straight into places where things are being done to crap them from existence. Quit acting like a child. I think he's just irritated that some people on the other side weren't all that willing to be constructive. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 91	Posted - 2015.01.12 23:17:00 - [19] - Quote .......................this game should be more like EVE. Do you agree with that? In EVE there is no lobby shooter mechanic. You aren't throw into a group of random players in what feels like a closed confined area. It's not like you are thrown into a confined battle arena. Where noobs in rookie ships have to fight vets in battleships. That's actually this games big flaw. There simply isn't enough room for different players with different play styles to have the freedom to enjoy what they like doing. Pubs don't allow for enough choice. We can't even choose the map. Personally I just want my vehicles to have real purpose. They don't atm. I wouldn't care if i'm not killing infantry. And that's the problem the only current way a vehicle can influence a team winning or losing a match is if they kill infantry. And some infantry don't enjoy having to deal with vehicles. Thus we can all this tension in the community. If this game were more like EVE... Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 91	Posted - 2015.01.12 23:53:00 - [20] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: .......................this game should be more like EVE. Do you agree with that? In EVE there is no lobby shooter mechanic. You aren't throw into a group of random players in what feels like a closed confined area. It's not like you are thrown into a confined battle arena. Where noobs in rookie ships have to fight vets in battleships. That's actually this games big flaw. There simply isn't enough room for different players with different play styles to have the freedom to enjoy what they like doing. Pubs don't allow for enough choice. We can't even choose the map. Personally I just want my vehicles to have real purpose. They don't atm. I wouldn't care if i'm not killing infantry. And that's the problem the only current way a vehicle can influence a team winning or losing a match is if they kill infantry. And some infantry don't enjoy having to deal with vehicles. Thus we can all this tension in the community. If this game were more like EVE... Players would cry too much. "Boo hoo they have 20+ Tanks and Logi Support" "Boo hoo they attacked outside of my Timer" "Boo hoo they ganked me in High Sec. Is nowhere safe?" Eeeeeehh... no. I did not say I want eve on the ground as it seems that is how you are interpreting it. I'm not suggesting a sandbox. Although that's what legion is going to be anyway and it really is what I actually want deep down so I guess let them whine all the like it ain't gonna make much of a difference. I want an alternative to matchmaking. I guess I want better planetary interaction that's more easily accessible and perhaps where vehicles could be far more useful. Now i'm not saying PC necessary. I'm just talking exploration mainly. Possibly some raiding. Some PvE questing. You can have your domination and ambush free of vehicles I don't care. Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.

Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 95	Posted - 2015.01.13 02:52:00 - [21] - Quote I'm not sure if many of you were paying attention to the Dev blogs pre-beta but this might be an interesting read. http://dust514.com/news/blog/2012/03/vehicle-dev-b/ Dust 514. A game about shooting people with super deadly sci-fi guns... and dancing.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 101	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:10:00 - [22] - Quote Soraya Xel wrote: Gavr1lo Pr1nc1p wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: Cost is irrelevant to balance, Vodar. Game is 16v16. That means the game is balanced if 16 people equal 16 people. Why do you think you're worth more than the AV player? (Hint: You're not, and you're wrong.) Cost. Is. Revelevent. Size. Is Relevant. Indeed what is the point in a currency if cost is irrelevant? Have a go at thinking about that for a second will you. And balance my friend is what makes games boring. Should I expect to be able to kill a titan in a frigate in EVE? No. No matter how much I shoot at it. I wouldn't even take on a battleship. The titan not only costs a few million times what a frigate costs, but is also several million times the mass. If someone who thinks a top end HAV shouldn't be able to tank a militia swarm launcher, started playing EVE, they would probably start whining that they can't kill all the battleships in their rookie ship. That's the analogy here. i.e. you Is EVE 16v16? Nailed it. In EVE it's common for massive numbers of smaller ships to engage a larger ship or a small group of larger ships. In a 16v16 game, this asymmetrical balance methodology does not work. Either vehicles need to require multiple people to use (equivalent to their power), or they need to be equal in power to infantry. If vehicle users cannot except either of those options, vehicles should honestly just be removed. Because a 16v16 game cannot be balanced if one player is able to be as powerful as two or three other players combined. There are some major factors that you are overlooking when you saying that it should only ever take one player to counter one player. And I mean MASSIVE! Think about this will you. Which has the advantage in confined close quarter spaces, assuming both are isolated from their teams, a sentinel with a hmg or two logis with ARs? Obviously the sentinel. Indeed you could argue that in close quarters a sentinel is worth more in terms of worth to the team than most other roles/suits. It will take several players to take down a sential, certainly a proto. In a way the player using the sentinel is worth several assault classes (players) when defending a point/objective. The sentinel has its weaknesses of course. It's slower thus easier targeted by snipers and is not as suitable for skirmish maps where there are several objectives set far apart from each other. But ultimately there are certain classes that are better suited to different roles. There could be a team of proto stompers against a team of blueberries. Still 16 v 16 but massivly unfair and unbalanced. The factors are how much the suit costs, how good your skills are and what your opponent's skills are that determine how much you are worth to the team. ( I would say an mk.0 assault is worth about 5 blueberries ) And so the HAV and the ADS. How many players are they worth now and how many players were they worth in the past? ( much of this would depend on how good the pilot is and what amount of isk was spent on the tank. In the hands of a blueberry a soma isn't worth 1 good player using a suit of equal isk cost on the opponent's side). Again it all depends on the environment in question. What use am I to my team using a blaster tank in a multi storey complex where most of the enemy team is far behind cover. Answer is I'm not worth much and I really shouldn't be in there in the first place as it is very easy to ambush me with PLCs and REs ( you know the AV that is actually balanced ). It should be easy for 1 player to counter me in this situation. But it is only these urban environments where it should be easy for one infantry to effectively counter me. I'm in a tank with a very fat ass I can't duck behind cover. Same with the ADS it takes only one militia swarm launcher to force me into a wall and possibly kill me. Out in the open however, this is where vehicles should be necessary and where they should be boss. The only 1 man counter to a HAV out here should be another HAV or perhaps an ADS. Just like in close quarters if there is an adv heavy logi duo walking around stomping my team the best counter for that is another heavy logi duo and this time maybe it's worth risking a couple of proto suits. This is what dust is about. It's not an even playing field all the time. Sometimes more isk will be risked for greater reward. Whether it be in the form of more expensive gear or indeed a vehicle. Taking that depth away is only dumbing the game down. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 101	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:20:00 - [23] - Quote Bone Doc wrote: This sound like another thread I was in another part of the forum so I'm just going to repost... Bone Doc wrote: The only vehicles that dont have a role are tanks while LAV and dropships are pure transportation with minor firepower, the only time I'v ever seen a good role for tanks was back in closed beta when the massive installations had to be destroyed or captured in order for the game to proceed to the next phase,everything that's changed since then has only boxed them into the role of death machines with no role outside of that. Maybe the game modes need to change in order to give the vehicles more purpose instead of changing the vehicle themselfs,idk just thinking to myself. They need only bring back skirmish 1.0 for that. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 101	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:21:00 - [24] - Quote pegasis prime wrote: Breakin Stuff I k noticed erlyer when you were detailing the changes to the forge gun you missed one thing that I myself think should be returned . When I used to forge gun in chrome when you lined a tanks sweet spot up at the back you got 204% efficiency again shields and 214% efficiency against armour and that has been several decreased to 104% and 114% I think I'm not in game to check at the moment but that old 204% used to serve my breech forge guns well and I do think it should be returned both as a tanker and a forge gunner. ...ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!! NO. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 101	Posted - 2015.01.13 19:56:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Breakin Stuff wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: pegasis prime wrote: Breakin Stuff I k noticed erlyer when you were detailing the changes to the forge gun you missed one thing that I myself think should be returned . When I used to forge gun in chrome when you lined a tanks sweet spot up at the back you got 204% efficiency again shields and 214% efficiency against armour and that has been several decreased to 104% and 114% I think I'm not in game to check at the moment but that old 204% used to serve my breech forge guns well and I do think it should be returned both as a tanker and a forge gunner. ...ahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!! NO. weakspots still exist. current values for the weakspot don't need a buff. Never said they were removed but severely nerfed as forges gave 204% and 214% as i stated but have little over 100% now that a big nerf . It's a dynamic I do believe need to be fixed as when im rolling my Gunnlogi (which is about 80% of the time these days) I am very aware of forge gunners getting shots on my weak spot this is a habit I form tanking in chrome now it dosent really do that muchbmore dammage whrn hit in the soft spot . If a forge gunner was abke to get to a good position behind ta tank they deserve the dammage bonus . Also inthought you might want to consifer this when tour giving input into the hav thread in the ideas forum. It's certainly something worth consideration. On one hand it does in some way encourage AVers to attack the weaker rear armour on the other 204 and 214% respectively are very high bonuses for a game like Dust. I can certainly handle 1-2 hit kills but I doubt the rest of the community can. I'd be cool if they increased the weak spot bonus and reduced the overall DPS of AV. It would certainly reward good gameplay more. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 106	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:32:00 - [26] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: xavier zor wrote: KILL3R H3LLH0UND wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: LOL. You didn't get past the first paragraph before admitting you think you should be immune to an AV. Nice job. You should never EVER be impossible to take down by a single other player. Ever. Correct. if you want one player to kill and ADS solo, then make an ADS cost as much as a dropsuit. that way a 150k minmando can kill my150k fitting incubus, or make It so a viper is 610 ISK, a Myron is 3k and a python is 56k Either this or make it so at least 2 people have to work together to take out a basic tank, 3/4 for a PRO tank when they are released lets not forget that the enemy doesn't have to run infantry to try and take out a tank, they can call in their OWN tanks and then if they kill the tanker, get their assholes opened by OP AV this is what only CoD scrubs want (or people with similar mindset) if it requires more than a single person to fack up a tank (or use tank by yourself) you create artificial number imbalance. the team that can afford to waste more tanks on the field would simply have bigger advantage. this is not rocket science. this is simple math, -1 guy devoted to taking objectives in a tank wrecking the field, -2 guys on the other taking care of him, oh look suddenly enemy team with tank has +1 advantage unless you pick up tank yourself. result AV = useless, go tank or go home. imbalance again and binary game mechanics, none of that belong to games in this century. we already had that, we do not want that. if you want it, go play world of tanks and enjoy your arcade style tank gameplay. Well you're wrong. If it takes more then 2 guys to take down a tank that's balance. Again the tank can't hide behind cover and is a much bigger and easier to hit. And your logic here is that the team that can afford to call in the most tanks has the advantage. Yeah I agree. Definatly. Although the same also applies to how much a player is spending on his/her suit. The team that can afford to waste the most on proto suits also has an advantage. Ultimately a team will always have an "unfair" advantage over their opponents if said team can afford to spend more isk than the other team. That's the nature if this game weather you like it or not. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 106	Posted - 2015.01.14 15:43:00 - [27] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Well you're wrong. If it takes more then 2 guys to take down a tank that's balance. Again the tank can't hide behind cover and is a much bigger and easier to hit. "hey it is balance because I say so, without any arguments, because I dont need them" Toobar Zoobar wrote: And your logic here is that the team that can afford to call in the most tanks has the advantage. Yeah I agree. Definatly. Although the same also applies to how much a player is spending on his/her suit. The team that can afford to waste the most on proto suits also has an advantage. it is not about isk spend, what about "binary gameplay" & "AV is left in dust" is hard to understand? having everyone required to be skilled into tanks to counter tanks is not balanced. deal with it. Well again if cost is intended to be irrelevant why do people choose to spend tons of isk on proto suits instead of just using starter fits? Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 106	Posted - 2015.01.14 16:37:00 - [28] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: Well again if cost is intended to be irrelevant why do people choose to spend tons of isk on proto suits instead of just using starter fits? you are funneled into cost too much, I couldnt care less about isk. I have enough isk to run proto suits for my lifetime and even if I didnt, there are certain playstyles that allow me to stay alive all game without dying, again allowing me to run full proto forever. what I do however care is what I skill into. SP is the most precious ressource in this game, it allows me to determine my own playstyles and run whatever I decide to skill into IF I WANT TO. I do not want to be forced to skill into something just to be able to enjoy the game because otherwise herp derp tank ruins my day and I have no other way to deal with it efficiently except for using a tank myself (or the other solution would be to run an AV squad and lose the game because we didnt had enough bodies on the field that can fight back). maybe I do not enjoy tanks at all? why should I be forced to use them? just because some CoD kids want to run 20/0 every game with them? no thanks. in no way having 2+ persons to deal with tanks as requirement is balanced or good for the game. and to answer your question: people use proto stuff because it gives them sense of progression, improvement and achievements, otherwise you could just aswell play Bf, counter strike or unreal tournament. You do make a good point. Isk tends to be a resource most of us don't have to worry about these days. I myself have about 73 mil. It's been that way for a while now. I tend to gain as much isk as Iose. There isn't much else to spend it on. It is worth bearing in mind however that this is not by design. ISK in this game should have functioned and been as relevant as ISK in EVE. ISK as it stands is only functioning as a minor incentive to die less. ISK as it should be would allow for a deep risk vs. reward dynamic to the game. If my team is being beaten back by a group of players that are using better gear than mine and there does not seem to be a way for my team to turn that game around, well then there should always be that extra gear available. I should have the option of a using a very costly asset in the form of a proto tier 2 HAV to try and compensate for my teams lack of either skills or lack of willing to take bigger risks with their wallet. That's what could make this game very deep, very interesting and very unpredictable on a match to match bases. Taking that dynamic away will be dumbing the game down and making all the matches very samey. Which is what has pretty much already happened. And on a side note... tanks ruin your day boo ******* hoo. Why the hell should I care about that. That has nothing to do with balancing just you sucking. I can't remember the last time I was killed by a tank as an infantry. If you can't deal with tanks go play ambush at least you have that option. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 106	Posted - 2015.01.14 17:17:00 - [29] - Quote Jack McReady wrote: Toobar Zoobar wrote: You do make a good point. Isk tends to be a resource most of us don't have to worry about these days. I myself have about 73 mil. It's been that way for a while now. I tend to gain as much isk as Iose. There isn't much else to spend it on. And on a side note... tanks ruin your day boo ***** hoo. Why the hell should I care about that. That has nothing to do with balancing just you sucking. I can't remember the last time I was killed by a tank as an infantry. If you can't deal with tanks go play ambush at least you have that option. first, I never said they ruin my day but they will ruin everyones day if 2+ or tank is the requirement of taking down one. second, people with alot of isk are a minority of this game. most of them are people from closed beta or from lag conquest or some no lifers that farmed it all day (in which case they deserve it imho). the average player I met ingame usually farms isk in pubs, then use some proto stuff in FW for a single match, they can in no way sustain going full proto forever. Spkr4theDead wrote:** So it wasn't fair that infantry was complaining that what was supposed to be an AV weapon was being used as a far-too overpowered AI weapon? Don't let your brain explode from trying to wrap your brain around that. it was fair to complain and fix it but it wasnt fair that the AV capabities were cut down too. Well you've failed to stage a rebuttal to the bulk of what I said. Specialization: Making typo's.
Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 107	Posted - 2015.01.14 19:29:00 - [30] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: xavier zor wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: LOL. You didn't get past the first paragraph before admitting you think you should be immune to an AV. Nice job. You should never EVER be impossible to take down by a single other player. Ever. you should. A tank is a tank. A mercenary is a mercenary. Your view is so one-minded and skewed, just express your hate for tanks some other way. A single-repped madrugar should be able to withstand a constant swarmer Soraya Xel wrote: The first paragraph here is the key point. I used to commonly lose five or six 200k suits trying to kill a single ADS. And failing. But the reality is costs can be tweaked later, so they're irrelevant for balance. The point is making the gameplay engaging and fun. And vehicles not dying isn't actually fun for anyone. If you lose 5-6 suits, you are doing it wrong.... and besides, how fun is it to an ADS pilot who can get maybe 1-2 kills before a swarmer notices him, and he has to retreat? Don't forget the bloody redline railguns/railtanks that one-shot my python, 2 shot my incubus (as in, i get shot once, knocked around then by the time i stabilize and start thrusting upwards he has launched his second shot and i'm dead) So.... a single rep madruger should be able to withstand a swarmer? Madrugers can fit 3 reppers, so you are basically telling me it should take 4 players with AV to kill a madruger? Do you actually believe this? As to your "how fun is it to an ADS pilot yadda yadda": How much fun do you think that swarmer is having while hes scrambling around trying not to have his ass handed to him by all the other infantry? Hes already had his not-fun, now he sees a vehicle and its time for HIM to have fun, and time for the ADS to have not-fun. I dont know where this myth comes from that AV fits are some kind of ninja ghost assassin fit who can easily avoid all threats and kill vehicles by looking at them. The reality is that they spend the entire game dodging or fending off or dying to infantry all the while hoping some vehicle will stop by that he can shoot at. And he probably wont be able to kill it unless that vehicle makes alot of mistakes. Even if AVers have the freedom to actively pursue a vehicle across the map, the most likely event is that the vehicle will not die and will still make some kills, it will just be slightly limited in effectiveness by the threat the AV guy represents. When I play my vehicle alt, I am nearly never killed by anything but a tank, its just too easy to stay alive against anything else because mobility and killing power is so incredibly skewed toward the vehicle. If you are dying alot to AV and you are good it means there is a ton of AV, and if you are dying alot to single AV players, then you just ******* suck. "When an AVer sees an ADS it's time for him to have fun and the pilot to have not fun". This is why I have so little respect for so many of you AV fanatics. You keep throwing BS like this at the argument. No fight? No options for the ADS pilot? He just has to take some damage, give AV ass some easy points, then fly away? Ridiculous. And this is a point I have made before. It should NEVER be about the kill. How can you demand that you should be able to kill the 500,000isk 9000 HP HAV with ease? What the hell is the point of a tank if it can't be a tank?! It's just BS after BS after BS. You complain that they kill infantry to well. You complain that they can rep too fast. And now you complain that they have the ability to retreat and that prevents you from getting the oh so over rated kill. **** K/D. Specialization: Making typo's.

Toobar Zoobar The Unholy Legion Of DarkStar DARKSTAR ARMY 109	Posted - 2015.01.15 16:46:00 - [31] - Quote Vesta Opalus wrote: You dont need splash damage to kill stuff, I don't know why people think its so hard to kill infantry with the large rail turret, unless someone is actively strafing to avoid you it doesnt take much skill to get them, and if you hit them at all you get a kill unless you have a crap turret and the target is a heavily tanked sentinel. 1 meter splash radius. 15% of direct hit damage. That's only reasonable. The railgun just doesn't feel right at the moment. Specialization: Making typo's.

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