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Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.01.08 02:22:00 - [1] - Quote I agree with Xel, I don't see the point in adding bandwidth just to effectively reverse it with a skill. If it was a specific bonus for a particular suit....maybe? But certainly not for everyone, it would completely defeat the purpose. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.01.08 02:55:00 - [2] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I agree with Xel, I don't see the point in adding bandwidth just to effectively reverse it with a skill. If it was a specific bonus for a particular suit....maybe? But certainly not for everyone, it would completely defeat the purpose. It wouldn't reverse it completely. It just adds some wiggle room. Not very much either. If you want to deploy more equipment, use a suit that is designed to deploy more equipment. The system is working exactly as intended. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.01.08 03:01:00 - [3] - Quote Clone D wrote: Soraya Xel wrote: It'd be silly to undo the whole point of bandwidth by giving everyone more bandwidth all the time. You're going to extremes. It wouldn't undo the whole point. It would give us a margin of room to contribute to the team in addition to performing the role of the dropsuit that we are in. Apparently everyone is expected to contribute by deploying uplinks and PEs, when those are really things best left to the logi role. We need a little extra bandwidth to perform our role in addition to helping out the logis. What about +1 dropsuit BW per level? Your missing the point. If there is a need for more equipment on the field, then people need to be fielding more Logistics suits. The whole point of bandwidth was to make Logistics more essential on the battlefield. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.01.08 03:19:00 - [4] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: I agree with Xel, I don't see the point in adding bandwidth just to effectively reverse it with a skill. If it was a specific bonus for a particular suit....maybe? But certainly not for everyone, it would completely defeat the purpose. It wouldn't reverse it completely. It just adds some wiggle room. Not very much either. If you want to deploy more equipment, use a suit that is designed to deploy more equipment. The system is working exactly as intended. Apparently the community consensus is that everyone is expected to help logis perform their role. For example, people say that assaults should carry an uplink instead of equipment that will actually boost their ability to perform their own role better, like an RE or hive. If everyone is expected to help logis by deploying equipment, then all non logi roles need their BW pimped a little bit in order to do their role + a little bit of team contribution. You're right, you have limited support abilities, but giving you more just devalues the Logi's importance. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4313	Posted - 2015.01.08 04:37:00 - [5] - Quote Then you wouldn't need a logi for uplinks Working as intended "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4324	Posted - 2015.01.08 21:35:00 - [6] - Quote Clone D wrote: If you take the time to read my entries, then you will see that I do not hate bandwidth, but I do advocate a relaxed bandwidth during the transitional period until we see an influx of logis, at which time the transition will be over. Why would allowing non-logis to better perform the support role, encourage people to spec into the support role more than they currently are? If you want people to play Logistics, then buff Logistics. Plain and simple. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4325	Posted - 2015.01.08 21:46:00 - [7] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Clone D wrote: If you take the time to read my entries, then you will see that I do not hate bandwidth, but I do advocate a relaxed bandwidth during the transitional period until we see an influx of logis, at which time the transition will be over. Why would allowing non-logis to better perform the support role, encourage people to spec into the support role more than they currently are? If you want people to play Logistics, then buff Logistics. Plain and simple. Surely an additional 4 or 5 bw per dropsuit does not constitue a supplanting of the support role. But it is enough to let everyone contribute to the support effort without having to change roles completely. Ok lets break this down. Bandwidth makes Logistics more essential. You're complaining there are not enough logistics on the field Because they're so essential, you feel you need to help more in the support role to make up for lack of Logistics. So if there were more Logistics, this would fix the issue, as you would no longer feel the need to assist in the Support role. That makes a lot of sense. What doesn't make sense is your solution. You want to make Logistics less important, so they're less essential, so the lack of Logistics is less detrimental to the gameplay. This will not encourage people to play Logistics at all, in fact it will discourage them more than they already are, because now the need for logistics is lessened. This is bad. So if you true goal is to have more Logistics on the field, then buff to suit so that people are more encouraged to actually play it. That is how you fix the problem. What you should really be advocating for, if you want flexibility, is a proper overhaul of the Frame suits so that they can perform the middleground you seem to want so you can play both roles (to a weaker extent) at the same time. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4325	Posted - 2015.01.08 22:06:00 - [8] - Quote Clone D wrote: My goal is not to have more logistics on the field. It is to make the game fun and stop using governance and policy to enforce public behavior. If nobody wants to be a logi, then it is self evident in the meta. Open your eyes to what is happening. I understand that you have an ideal, but you are trying to force feed it to the community, when the players' behavior clearly shows how they feel and how they want to play. Have you stopped to consider why the Logi player count is low? And I'm not talking about the derpy WP farmers, I'm talking about real Logistics. Why do you think there are so few of them? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4325	Posted - 2015.01.08 22:36:00 - [9] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Clone D wrote: My goal is not to have more logistics on the field. It is to make the game fun and stop using governance and policy to enforce public behavior. If nobody wants to be a logi, then it is self evident in the meta. Open your eyes to what is happening. I understand that you have an ideal, but you are trying to force feed it to the community, when the players' behavior clearly shows how they feel and how they want to play. Have you stopped to consider why the Logi player count is low? And I'm not talking about the derpy WP farmers, I'm talking about real Logistics. Why do you think there are so few of them? Because people don't want to logi for various reasons. If it were family feud, then I'd guess the #1 answer is .... boredom. It is a first person shooter, not a first person healer. That may the reason for you, but I can assure you that is not the reason for most people. The main reason people are discouraged from playing Logistics is that not only is by far the most expensive class (Both in ISK and SP) but it is also the weakest combat frame in the game. It has bad speed, bad stamina, bad HP, and extremely limited bonuses. High level Logi suits run upwards over 250k ISK, and die faster than anything else in the game. I'm not saying you should balance around ISK cost, but who the hell is going to want to get in a stumpy weak and slow suit that's going to cost them an arm and a leg and die faster than another role which can still get most of the job done with a suit which is FAR more survivable. You can't play the Support Role if you're dead, no matter how good your gear is, so why would I want to run Logistics? If I die too easily, then I can't play the support role at all. So people realized it was better to just play a non-logi role because it was better to run a gimped support fit on a better class of suit and survive, rather than run a full support fit, die, and be useless. The fact that you can't even recognize the true problem behind the lack of Logistics, and insist on simply buffing your own class, shows that what you're more interested in cramming your own playstyle down everyone's throat rather that actually fixing a serious problem in the game. So don't sit there and spew crap like "This is what the players want so we should just make the class I don't play be less important" as some lame excuse. It's clear you have no idea what you're talking "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4327	Posted - 2015.01.08 23:02:00 - [10] - Quote Clone D wrote: If people wanted to play logistics, then they would have been doing it all along, regardless of the drawbacks. There is a thing called the defiant power of the human spirit. It basically drives this game. When something challenges us, we strive hard to overcome it. We would have to poll people as to why they have not been playing logi all of this time. Neither you nor I know the real reason until we get some data to work with. When they nerfed the flaylock, a small group of loyalists continued to tote it as their sidearm. Those are the people who wanted to use flaylocks because they were flaylocks. The rest of the flaylock users migrated elsewhere because they wanted something more effective to get what they wanted out of the game. People play this game for myriad reasons. Policies like bandwidth, especially enforced so strictly, assert that the design is more important than the fun of the player base. When the mob fotm club doesn't even want to play logi, even after it has been chosen as the golden child of 1.10, then that's gotta tell ya something. Nobody wants to do it because it doesn't have the appeal of the other roles. So then people say, buff logis. Instead of letting it be what it is, you're trying to mashup the logi role with the shooter role and say, "hey everybody it's not so bad! Get in here and try this out now." But you had to add the functionality of the other roles to the logi role. The logi role alone was not attractive nor desirable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 I'm out. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 16:39:00 - [11] - Quote Clone D wrote: People play this game for myriad reasons. Policies like bandwidth, especially enforced so strictly, assert that the design is more important than the fun of the player base. So are you against 'strict Policies' like "Only Commandos get 2 Light Weapons" "Only Heavies & Sentinels get Heavy Weapons" "Sentinels Can't use Equipment" "Only Scouts Can readily fit Cloaks"? Because you're clearly against "Only Logistics can readily fit uplinks". They're all 'strict policies' to prevent roles from doing certain things, so surely you must be against all of them, right? Clone D wrote: When the mob fotm club doesn't even want to play logi, even after it has been chosen as the golden child of 1.10, then that's gotta tell ya something. Nobody wants to do it because it doesn't have the appeal of the other roles. Chosen by who? People who think Bandwidth was a Buff to Logistics are sadly confused. Bandwidth did not in any way make Logistics better at what it does in any way. All it did was make other roles less effective in faking the Logistics role, which make the Logistics more necessary, but It did not make them any better. I'm not sure how long you've been playing, I don't want to bother looking up your background history, but Logistics used to be a commonly played class because it was fun and desiriable. But it got nerfed over and over, all out of this irrational notion that they should be worthless in a fight. It's not that the Support role is not desirable, it's because dying constantly because your suit is so ****, is not fun. Literally throwing away more ISK more often than everyone else, is not fun. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 17:12:00 - [12] - Quote Clone D wrote: Granting limitations to a dropsuit defines the dropsuit. The problem is when bandwidth is so tight that other roles can not perform a minimal amount of team support in addition to the demands of their role. There will be times when no logis are around. During those times, everyone must do their part. My recommendation to slightly loosen bandwidth allows everyone to do their minor support contribution in addition to their chosen role. Things That You can Do to Support Your Team with equipment Repair Tool - Doesn't use Bandwidth Active Scanner - Doesn't use Bandwidth Nanite Injector - Doesn't use Bandwidth Nanohives - Requires Bandwidth Demolitions - Requires Bandwidth Uplinks - Requires Bandwidth So, half of the support functions that Logistics do, don't even require bandwidth, so even if you have 0 badwidth, you could still perform half of possible support options with your equipment slot. So how exactly can you "not perform a minimal amount of team support" when there are 50%+ of the available options are open to you? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 17:33:00 - [13] - Quote What class, tier of Suit, and tier of uplink are you trying to use? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 17:52:00 - [14] - Quote What you're effectively asking for is Assaults to have two equipment slots. Further devaluing the Logistics role. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 18:04:00 - [15] - Quote You're just repeating yourself, but your end goal is to be able to deploy uplinks and keep them active at the same time as whatever other piece of equipment you want to use. The end result is that you want two equipment at the same time, uplinks, and something else. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:06:00 - [16] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You're just repeating yourself, but your end goal is to be able to deploy uplinks and keep them active at the same time as whatever other piece of equipment you want to use. The end result is that you want two equipment at the same time, uplinks, and something else. I am repeating myself because you are repeating yourself. See? You are being coy, and you're being extreme. The ability to deploy one uplink in addition to a role's traditional duties does not infringe upon the logi role. This is not the ability to deploy poppy fields of nanohives. We're talking one uplink to prevent redlining. You do not have to use equipment to perform your role as an assaulting class. Your equipment slot is designed for minor support. If that minor support role is an uplink for you, sweet, that's fine. This is no different from how the Logistics serves a minor Assaulting role, which is why it has a Light Weapon. Well well whatever, its clear you're only interested in buffing your own class rather than fixing the underpowered support role. As you put, if you dislike the playstyle of the Assault because it can't have uplinks and nanohives deployed at the same time, then you should just migrate away from it. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:15:00 - [17] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Well well whatever, its clear you're only interested in buffing your own class rather than fixing the underpowered support role. As you put, if you dislike the playstyle of the Assault because it can't have uplinks and nanohives deployed at the same time, then you should just migrate away from it. I play all classes and am interested in allowing an additional margin of bandwidth devoted to team support apart from their traditional role. It is not an extreme or biased view. It is a well adjusted, global perspective. Can you answer this for me? Hypothetically, if every role were able to deploy 1 uplink in addition to their standard duties: 1. Would it cause uplink spam? 2. Would logis be out of a job? 1. It would increase the number of uplinks on the field by 1 for every assault. Propagating the problem further. 2. It would make the logis less important, when they're already too unimportant. Propagating the problem further. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4334	Posted - 2015.01.09 19:44:00 - [18] - Quote Clone D wrote: We need to establish a baseline. How many uplinks are a healthy amount, and how many are spam? Is this determined subjectively? Is it determined by the technical constraints of the game? It doesn't matter. Simply put, if a suit has a single equipment slot, it's intention is allow it to make use of a single equipment at a time. If it was supposed to have 2 at a time, it would have had 2 equipment slots. I have no issue with Assaults carrying Uplinks. What I have an issue with is them dropping uplinks then just getting around their intended limitation of 1 equipment by swapping fits to deploy a second equipment type. Clone D wrote: This is a highly subjective area. I just had a logi tell me that he wouldn't mind if everyone else contributed an uplink: https://forums.dust514.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2561768#post2561768 How can we determine this in a community-centric way? We've already established that there is a lack of Logistics on the field. The current usage is significantly lower than it used to be, and this is because of subsequent nerfs to the Logistics class time and time again. Even the Logi you linked to stated that this is the case. Let me clarify: RayRay James wrote: Combat oriented people pushed to have the needle nerf installed. Sure WP Farming happened, but get over it. People stopped playing logi because of it. Bandwidth was introduced because CCP wanted it, not Logi's Loss of logis from previous nerfs means less logis on the field. People stopped playing Logi because of nerfs not because they found the role to be boring. Nerfs --> Less Logis --> Less Uplinks. You have stated yourself that the lack of logis on the field is problematic in that there is insufficient equipment being dropped to support the battle. Therefor it is painfully clear that in order to reverse a negative effect, you reverse the cause of said effect. The solution is to buff Logistics. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4335	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:04:00 - [19] - Quote Ok I'll read between the lines for you. The maximum number of uplinks should be directly proportional to the total number of equipment slots of all dropsuits currently on the field with bandwidth as an additional level of protection against overuse. Obviously I can't give you an exact number as the types of suits will vary depending on the match and situation. However, if I recall the maximum number of deployed uplinks from a single stack is 3 at prototype level. If we assume everyone has a single equipment slot, you have 32 Equipment Slots on the field, so the absolute maximum would be 96. Obviously this is an extreme case, as not everyone has an equipment slot, and some have more, and it is extremely unlikely that everyone on the team will be using uplinks at the same time. The point to take away from this is not the number of uplinks, its the number of intended equipment types on the field. If 32 Assaults want to drop 3 uplinks each and have 96 uplinks on the field? I have zero issue with that. I think it's not very practical but its fine if they want to do that. What I do have an issue with is if they say "Ok, I want to use my single equipment slot, but I'm going to get around the system by dropping my uplink, and then swapping to another equipment to I can gain the benefit from that too. Secondly, you simply proved my point by linking me to a Logistics player who mirrored my sentiments that the reason there isn't enough logistics is because they got nerfed which your solution isn't to buff logis, it's to buff yourself so you can do their job them. And yes he said "Use your uplinks" but he didn't say "Use your uplinks, and hives, and then maybe even switch to a needle once you're all set up. What he's saying is "You've got limited support abilities, if you're going to *** that we don't do our job, then help us support". He said nothing about "And abuse the system to get around your lack of equipment slots" "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4337	Posted - 2015.01.09 20:50:00 - [20] - Quote In this particular case, I'm not concerned with spam. Im concerned with you effectively gaining a second equipment slot. Tell me, why are you so against simply buffing the Logis in order to encourage their use and thus get the intended effect of better support on the field? "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4337	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:09:00 - [21] - Quote Slayer Logi fear is irrational. What you're trying to do is buff a class which is actually in a pretty solid spot, sans some tweaks to its attacking bonuses. You're also ignoring a class which is innately underpowered. I don't see how it makes any sense at all to buff the Assault class and leave the Logi underpowered. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:43:00 - [22] - Quote You don't get it. There are quite a few people whom I talk to on a regular basis who don't play the game at all because the Logi is in such a **** place. They're only interested in playing the support role and nothing else, so until that role is more viable, they're not interested at all. There are also many other players who respecced out of Logi or simply trained something else, myself included, because they no longer felt viable on the battlefield after countless nerfs. Buffing the Logi isn't going to make people who had no interest in Support previously to spec into it, that's not my intention. The whole point is to make those who actually want to play the support role but don't because their suits suck, actually want to pick the suit back up again. So you want to make the game fun? Great. Then let people who want to run support actually have a fighting chance at doing so instead of just handing off the leftovers to everyone else. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:49:00 - [23] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You don't get it. There are quite a few people whom I talk to on a regular basis who don't play the game at all because the Logi is in such a **** place. They're only interested in playing the support role and nothing else, so until that role is more viable, they're not interested at all. There are also many other players who respecced out of Logi or simply trained something else, myself included, because they no longer felt viable on the battlefield after countless nerfs. Buffing the Logi isn't going to make people who had no interest in Support previously to spec into it, that's not my intention. The whole point is to make those who actually want to play the support role but don't because their suits suck, actually want to pick the suit back up again. So you want to make the game fun? Great. Then let people who want to run support actually have a fighting chance at doing so instead of just handing off the leftovers to everyone else. I hope the coming buffs to the logi dropsuits will bring back your buds And then you won't need that extra bandwidth for your Assault since there will be more, better logis on the field. "That little st Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 4338	Posted - 2015.01.09 21:59:00 - [24] - Quote Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: Clone D wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: You don't get it. There are quite a few people whom I talk to on a regular basis who don't play the game at all because the Logi is in such a ****** place. They're only interested in playing the support role and nothing else, so until that role is more viable, they're not interested at all. There are also many other players who respecced out of Logi or simply trained something else, myself included, because they no longer felt viable on the battlefield after countless nerfs. Buffing the Logi isn't going to make people who had no interest in Support previously to spec into it, that's not my intention. The whole point is to make those who actually want to play the support role but don't because their suits suck, actually want to pick the suit back up again. So you want to make the game fun? Great. Then let people who want to run support actually have a fighting chance at doing so instead of just handing off the leftovers to everyone else. I hope the coming buffs to the logi dropsuits will bring back your buds And then you won't need that extra bandwidth for your Assault since there will be more, better logis on the field. Indeed and agreed and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This alludes to my comments about a transitional period between now and then. I will tough it out, though, and I won't bring up temporarily relaxing bandwidth anymore. I understand your intention, but I prefer to just fix the source of a problem rather than place temporary measures in. I apologize for being agressive earlier, I just get frustrated with the lack of action on CCP's part to fix the issue at hand. bro hugz "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032 Dust514 // Podcast www.biomassed.net

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