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Vesta Opalus
Mannar Focused Warfare Gallente Federation
256
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Posted - 2014.12.16 21:49:00 -
[121] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote:Vesta Opalus wrote:Kierkegaard Soren wrote:I wasn't around for skirmish 1.0 but I love th idea of tanks playing a central role in destroying nulls. Shaping the battlefield is one of the few elements I miss from BF. If tanks could assault nulls and cripple them rather than destroying them, would that create the right dynamic to make players field vehicles for a reason beyond dominating infantry for lols?
Infantry AV should be a solid counter to tanks, otherwise what's the point? If my PLC can't knock out your average shield tank then I might as well just drop my own tank into the field and go from there because realistically nobody wants to be a deterrent; they want to be a counter. We build fits, both suits and vehicles, to fulfill a specific purpose on the battlefield. Success in that endeavour is then dependant on the players skill in the execution of that role whilst playing. If I fit my suit to kill tanks I want the game to be balanced so as to allow me to do that if I play the role well enough. Of course, proto fit tanks and superb tankers can prevent this, and that's great, but fundementally all weapons, and the roles they are designed to support, should be effective and fun. And thats why a sica with a militia railgun, 2 militia damage mods, a militia hardener, and a militia plate is the best AV in the game available to an infantry player. There is no reason to pull out a forge gun or swarm launcher when I can just call in a tank that does comparable damage (and much more damage with mods active) over longer range with less delay between shots on a tank that moves many times faster than a dropsuit and grants me invincibility to all the infantry which would murder my AV fits the second I start firing and reveal my location. Also the tank costs less money than an effective AV fitting (effective at being a deterrent, not at actually killing anything, because killing a vehicle isnt allowed unless you use another vehicle). But yeah all the clueless tankers should keep whining about how good AV is. The only reason they really think its good is that it is one of the few things that isnt a tank that can kill them if they act stupid enough to take AV fire for 10+ seconds. Because we act stupid when someone actually has a brain and gets behind us to use AV. You can still one-shot a base HP tank in the rear end with a PRO breach forge, proficiency 5 in a Cal sentinel with 4 damage mods.
So why are you using a base HP tank you dumb ass? Why are you sticking yourself so far into enemy territory that a fat ass heavy can literally waddle up behind you, stand there charging a breach forge for a few seconds, and blap you? Is he driving behind you in a car? Why arent you paying attention to his car? Why arent you moving? This is what Im talking about, tankers act like complete idiots and then get mad that something actually killed them.
The reality of the situation is that the tanker played like an idiot and left himself vulnerable to an incredibly fringe scenario where an AV player can actually be effective.
The scenario Im concerned about is when a vehicle is driven by someone who isnt a moron, because then the vehicle is invincible and AV AT BEST can only hope to drive him away temporarily while still sustaining lots of losses both from the vehicle and from enemy infantry. |
Sir Dukey
Murphys-Law General Tso's Alliance
1318
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Posted - 2014.12.16 22:32:00 -
[122] - Quote
Spkr4theDead wrote: Why not?
Because that is how it was in Chromosome. That is how it was in uprising.
CCP even said Marauder- Defensive tank Enforcer- Offensive tank
Why change it?
Acquire Currency, Disregard Female Canis lupus familiaris
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killer270890 rock
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
3
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:27:00 -
[123] - Quote
the marauder tank : they have become a waste of isk, it is a very weak tank
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but this time I'm not willing to lose.
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TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet
77
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:39:00 -
[124] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:A triple rep tank is not following Gallentean lore. It was an exploit developed by players and masked as legitimate gameplay. No Gallentean ship will ever use triple reps.
Maybe 2 at best. One Ancillary and one standard. Whether or not one approves of that sort of fitting it is hardly invincible. Perhaps your right that no ship would use all rep however when armor hardeners are crap people move to the next way to survive a conflict. Sadly with AV the way it is pilots will likely go to extremes to survive. Losing two half a million tanks is more costly than running multiple advanced or in the hands of a veteran player quality proto suit fittings. |
True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
15986
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Posted - 2014.12.16 23:45:00 -
[125] - Quote
TIGER SHARK1501 wrote:True Adamance wrote:A triple rep tank is not following Gallentean lore. It was an exploit developed by players and masked as legitimate gameplay. No Gallentean ship will ever use triple reps.
Maybe 2 at best. One Ancillary and one standard. Whether or not one approves of that sort of fitting it is hardly invincible. Perhaps your right that no ship would use all rep however when armor hardeners are crap people move to the next way to survive a conflict. Sadly with AV the way it is pilots will likely go to extremes to survive. Losing two half a million tanks is more costly than running multiple advanced or in the hands of a veteran player quality proto suit fittings.
It would simply cap out too quickly and not leave room for use of prop mods.... and be susceptible to delicious Amarrian Energy Neuts.
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Ghost Kaisar
Fatal Absolution General Tso's Alliance
9038
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Posted - 2014.12.17 01:43:00 -
[126] - Quote
True Adamance wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:My view on the Tank vs. Infantry balance.
Large turrets should have little to no infantry slaying power. Suppressive abilities at best (Via splash damage that makes it harmful, but not lethal to any infantry that isn't an idiot.)
To counter, small turrets need to be more effective vs. infantry, so that we can see a pilot+Gunner as an effective combo.
In BF3, you never saw a good tanker without a gunner. The top gun was vital for deterring infantry from pull out SMAW after SMAW in an effort to take you down.
It was the gunners responsibility to get rid of C4 runners and to protect the tanks sides and flanks while engaging vehicles.
This is what I want. Do want to point out Ghost that in BF 3 and 4 Tanks did/do have coaxial machine guns on their turrets for anti infantry work, and any direct hit with the shell was always a OHKO. I've played a lot of BF in my hiatus from Dust and honestly I find even as the main pilot I have significantly more anti infantry and destructive power both vs vehicles and structures.
Comparing Dust Vehicles with BF vehicles is a terrible conversation to have. Mainly because BF has a FAR better vehicle/infantry balance, and they actually have a role. Armor is fantastic at suppressing targets by destroying cover and letting the top mounted gunners sweep the field with HMG fire. In BF, Armor and Infantry SYNERGIZE with each other to form a very deadly fighting force.
Onto Dust though: What role should heavy armor have? The first role, of course, is ANTI-ARMOR. These things are made to ruin every other vehicles day. Their SECONDARY role is anti-infantry. They SUPPORT infantry advance, they don't spearhead it. And they shouldn't.
Onto Turrets: I'm fine with Large Rails instapopping infantry. I'm not saying we should remove that aspect. Anyone who lands a direct shell kill in BF DESERVES the kill, same in here.
What I'm mainly talking about here is the Large Blaster and Large Missile. Large Blaster needs bigger, more powerful blasts with slower ROF. Like a 12 round clip or something with large, slow moving rounds that HURT. They receive minor splash damage but they get their old accuracy back. Since its a large, slower moving round, it will be possible to hit infantry, but it shouldn't be a shooting gallery.
Yes, we have coaxial turrets. Personally, thats a terrible decision on the tankers part. You already have one on your tank, just put someone in there to gun it. You'd be better off running some guided shells or staff shells.
However, if Dust players want a co-axial Blaster or Rail, I say let them have it. Make a module slot that activates and lets all turrets track on one target. Would be interesting, to say the least. Hell, make it a trademark for the enforcer or something.
Anywho, about Large Missiles. I've always loved these things. Personally, I think they need a larger clip, less damage, and more splash. They should be good at assaulting entrenched positions by sustained missile barrages from a distance. Now, you aren't going to be killing them (If they're smart enough to move out of the dead zone), but you can support infantry via suppression. It is the best form of offense against armor tanks due to the large sustain damage from a distance. They can just keep throwing missiles down range and pummel through even the tankiest tank through sheer damage in the clip.
In my mind, the blaster should be the DPS king, Rail is the burst king, and Missile is the sustain king. All of them are primarily anti-vehicle weapons, but have limited Anti-infantry capabilities.
To round out vehicles, I would also want to include a form of MAV that specializes in anti-infantry operations (Much like the IFV from BF), which would in turn be weak to armor.
So, you could have an armor fighting force if you wanted to, but it would require multiple vehicles with roles that overlap. IFV for infantry, and HAV's for armor. IFV would probably feature a Mobile CRU, throw in a Logi LAV and BAM you have some sick Vehicle action on the battlefield.
But that's probably asking for too much out of dust...
Born Deteis Caldari. Rejected by my Kinsman.
Found a new family in the Vherokior Tribe.
Nobody messes with my family
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True Adamance
Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
16019
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Posted - 2014.12.17 02:28:00 -
[127] - Quote
Ghost Kaisar wrote:True Adamance wrote:Ghost Kaisar wrote:My view on the Tank vs. Infantry balance.
Large turrets should have little to no infantry slaying power. Suppressive abilities at best (Via splash damage that makes it harmful, but not lethal to any infantry that isn't an idiot.)
To counter, small turrets need to be more effective vs. infantry, so that we can see a pilot+Gunner as an effective combo.
In BF3, you never saw a good tanker without a gunner. The top gun was vital for deterring infantry from pull out SMAW after SMAW in an effort to take you down.
It was the gunners responsibility to get rid of C4 runners and to protect the tanks sides and flanks while engaging vehicles.
This is what I want. Do want to point out Ghost that in BF 3 and 4 Tanks did/do have coaxial machine guns on their turrets for anti infantry work, and any direct hit with the shell was always a OHKO. I've played a lot of BF in my hiatus from Dust and honestly I find even as the main pilot I have significantly more anti infantry and destructive power both vs vehicles and structures. Comparing Dust Vehicles with BF vehicles is a terrible conversation to have. Mainly because BF has a FAR better vehicle/infantry balance, and they actually have a role. Armor is fantastic at suppressing targets by destroying cover and letting the top mounted gunners sweep the field with HMG fire. In BF, Armor and Infantry SYNERGIZE with each other to form a very deadly fighting force. Onto Dust though: What role should heavy armor have? The first role, of course, is ANTI-ARMOR. These things are made to ruin every other vehicles day. Their SECONDARY role is anti-infantry. They SUPPORT infantry advance, they don't spearhead it. And they shouldn't. Onto Turrets: I'm fine with Large Rails instapopping infantry. I'm not saying we should remove that aspect. Anyone who lands a direct shell kill in BF DESERVES the kill, same in here. What I'm mainly talking about here is the Large Blaster and Large Missile. Large Blaster needs bigger, more powerful blasts with slower ROF. Like a 12 round clip or something with large, slow moving rounds that HURT. They receive minor splash damage but they get their old accuracy back. Since its a large, slower moving round, it will be possible to hit infantry, but it shouldn't be a shooting gallery. Yes, we have coaxial turrets. Personally, thats a terrible decision on the tankers part. You already have one on your tank, just put someone in there to gun it. You'd be better off running some guided shells or staff shells. However, if Dust players want a co-axial Blaster or Rail, I say let them have it. Make a module slot that activates and lets all turrets track on one target. Would be interesting, to say the least. Hell, make it a trademark for the enforcer or something. Anywho, about Large Missiles. I've always loved these things. Personally, I think they need a larger clip, less damage, and more splash. They should be good at assaulting entrenched positions by sustained missile barrages from a distance. Now, you aren't going to be killing them (If they're smart enough to move out of the dead zone), but you can support infantry via suppression. It is the best form of offense against armor tanks due to the large sustain damage from a distance. They can just keep throwing missiles down range and pummel through even the tankiest tank through sheer damage in the clip. In my mind, the blaster should be the DPS king, Rail is the burst king, and Missile is the sustain king. All of them are primarily anti-vehicle weapons, but have limited Anti-infantry capabilities. To round out vehicles, I would also want to include a form of MAV that specializes in anti-infantry operations (Much like the IFV from BF), which would in turn be weak to armor. So, you could have an armor fighting force if you wanted to, but it would require multiple vehicles with roles that overlap. IFV for infantry, and HAV's for armor. IFV would probably feature a Mobile CRU, throw in a Logi LAV and BAM you have some sick Vehicle action on the battlefield. But that's probably asking for too much out of dust... YOU WERE THE ONE WHO MADE THE COMPARISON....werent you?
*"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
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Quasar Storm
0uter.Heaven
383
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Posted - 2014.12.17 15:57:00 -
[128] - Quote
I have little problems with AV when normal scenarios are running. However when full squads hunt me down cause my team is redlined -- I'm locked out. Which to me, Is a good thing. That's what is supposed to happen. Heck, I can't blame them. Here I am lookin' like a sweet & spicy 400 WP.
Although, I have been running into a lot of AV personnel who I think go after me just for spite. People that know me. They throw their match away, Just for me. I guess the lulz are far too great to resist. A lot of people love killing me. :(
ADS & Tank pilot.
Drifting on Stormy Seas.
The "Eh" Team
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H0riz0n Unlimit
Dead Man's Game
256
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Posted - 2014.12.17 16:53:00 -
[129] - Quote
I m only expecting AV buff, vehicles are Op, now i cant even make a jlav and die in militia gear... #sarcasm ... I will no more spend a word for Ccp and his work on vehicles, you should do the same
The KTM DuKe lives here, send a message after the "beep".
TheD1ck is on the table fan club.
MPRQ-MakingPeopleRageQuit
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TIGER SHARK1501
Savage Bullet
77
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Posted - 2014.12.18 00:41:00 -
[130] - Quote
CCP Rattati wrote:I agree with OP that I enjoyed seeing and being a part of bigger tank battles, with escalation. I also agree that since we are having tanks in the game, there should be some variety, preferably some stone/paper/scissors. The entry point seems to be the most difficult, in "why do I need Tanks in my infantry game"
Maybe the Marauder can be that take and hold monster, that has small turrets and is incredibly difficult to dislodge and requires tank destroyer HAV's. I pray for the day this is dropped. |
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killer270890 rock
G0DS AM0NG MEN General Tso's Alliance
4
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Posted - 2014.12.22 23:29:00 -
[131] - Quote
THE MARAUDER: strengthener shielding decreases only 25% damage compared with strengthening shield that is nothing THE GUNLOGI: It is the strongest tank as you can got around 7000 pr, and use two strengtheners shield which gives you a great advantage.
Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, but this time I'm not willing to lose.
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