DUST Search - In context of Marauder tanks having drawbacks compared to std....

Spkr4theDead wrote:

Isa Lucifer wrote:

Spkr4theDead wrote:

And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future.

The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion.

Oh yeah, can't be great offense against another tank, not allowed, that's all infantry's role because they must be able to do everything with such incredible proficiency that a railgun or missile tank is not needed. Stupid me, I thought tanks were supposed to be tanks.

And how can a module make a ship unmovable in space? That literally makes no sense at all. You mean to tell me it fires retro thrusters/turns over to fire main propulsion to achieve 0 movement speed in all directions?

There is no combat without movement. Helicopters don't stop moving to fire rockets. Aircraft don't stop to drop bombs. Tanks don't stop moving to fire their cannon. Infantry does stop to achieve the most steady platform for firing their weapon to increase accuracy as much as possible.

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DarthJT5 12th Shadow Legion 131	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:29:00 - [1] - Quote The only one should be cost. In sp and isk. My reasoning? Lets look at the dropsuit skilltree. When you go from a basic med frame to an assault, do you get ANY drawbacks? At all? No, you dont. So why should vehicle users be punished? IMO, a Marauder class tank should be a better version of Std with a specialty, like increased speed or resistance. How do we balalance this? Dont ask me, im not good with numbers. Now in the flip side of the coin, what about the times in the dropsuit skilltree where you gain something over basic frames but you also lose something, like logistics suits or commando for example. This is where enforcers come in. Enforcers should gain lots of dps but lose survivabilty and speed, making them true glass cannons. This, with a revamp of the skill tree for vehicles to a racial skill tree where std is unlocked at lvl 1 of the racial hav command, then have enforcers at level 3, and finally the overall best tanks, the marauders, is the way to go, IMO. Anyone think like i do? All opinions accepted, i want some feedback. Dedicated Shield Tanking vet since Open Beta. Up and coming Python pilot. The awnser is always XT missiles....
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3950	Posted - 2014.12.11 18:41:00 - [2] - Quote Do Specialty suits have drawbacks compared to their Frame Equivalents?.....sometimes, but not as often as I think they should. An example of course is that Logistics loses a sidearm but gains equipment. Whereas Assaults are direct upgrades. I personally prefer the Logistics side, where you lose something to gain something. I think this lack of consistency is bad, and should be avoided. Either make all vehicle specialties a direct upgrade like Frame > Assault, or make them all come with a tradeoff like Frame > Logistics. I'd prefer the latter, but I think consistency is key first and foremost. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
The-Errorist SVER True Blood 919	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:02:00 - [3] - Quote Specializations being complete upgrades are bad because it makes non specialized things useless; having useless things in a game is very bad game design. Edit: Also making specializations cost more than non-specialized ones is also bad; balancing around ISK cost is a terrible idea and it doesn't work well. Would you want all specialized dropsuits or weapon variants being more expensive than base ones? That would discourage their use and punish those with different playstyles/roles. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
The-Errorist 920	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:11:00 - [4] - Quote Regarding the drawbacks vs gains of Marauder tanks, they should be tankier at the cost of mobility. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:11:00 - [5] - Quote I will express my opinion of how Marauders should be here instead of creating another post Marauders should have a Bastion module like in EVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk The Bastion Module should only be accessible to Marauders. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i33400 The Bastion module, when activated, should make the Marauder inmovable for at LEAST 30 seconds. Now instead of improving firepower, the turret speed should be improved, as well as a healthy shield and armor resistance bonus as long as the bastion module is active. Also it should appear on TACNET for anybody to see because of its explosion on signature size due to the power generation of Bastion Module tl;dr Bastion module on Marauders Pros; Increase firepower capacity larger health pool Cons; Inmovable (liability for flux strike or minor orbital strike) Shown on map like a billboard ad.(meaning everybody can see it on TACNET) Amarr Victor
The-Errorist 920	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:16:00 - [6] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: I will express my opinion of how Marauders should be here instead of creating another post Marauders should have a Bastion module like in EVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk The Bastion Module should only be accessible to Marauders. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i33400 The Bastion module, when activated, should make the Marauder inmovable for at LEAST 30 seconds. Now instead of improving firepower, the turret speed should be improved, as well as a healthy shield and armor resistance bonus as long as the bastion module is active. Also it should appear on TACNET for anybody to see because of its explosion on signature size due to the power generation of Bastion Module tl;dr Bastion module on Marauders Pros; Increase firepower capacity larger health pool Cons; Inmovable (liability for flux strike or minor orbital strike) Shown on map like a billboard ad.(meaning everybody can see it on TACNET) I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 218	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:24:00 - [7] - Quote 1. Frankly you dont lose much of anything with dropsuits and thats going from a x4 to x8 2. With vehicles the SP mulitplier will jump from a x4 to possibly a x12 like the old build had it but ADS is a x8 so it could be a x8 2a. The DS to ADS loses 1 high and low slot and frankly is weaker as a result for more agility and top speed but slow enough to not escape swarms and also its skill bonus is not worth a x8 at all 2b. If the Marauders are not better than the basic tanks then they will be useless, the Madrugar was better than a fully specced out Vayu and were useless in PC
The-Errorist 920	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:28:00 - [8] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: 1. Frankly you dont lose much of anything with dropsuits and thats going from a x4 to x8 2. With vehicles the SP mulitplier will jump from a x4 to possibly a x12 like the old build had it but ADS is a x8 so it could be a x8 2a. The DS to ADS loses 1 high and low slot and frankly is weaker as a result for more agility and top speed but slow enough to not escape swarms and also its skill bonus is not worth a x8 at all 2b. If the Marauders are not better than the basic tanks then they will be useless, the Madrugar was better than a fully specced out Vayu and were useless in PC My python at least is fast enough to escape swarms without an Afterburner. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2465	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:29:00 - [9] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: I will express my opinion of how Marauders should be here instead of creating another post Marauders should have a Bastion module like in EVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk The Bastion Module should only be accessible to Marauders. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i33400 The Bastion module, when activated, should make the Marauder inmovable for at LEAST 30 seconds. Now instead of improving firepower, the turret speed should be improved, as well as a healthy shield and armor resistance bonus as long as the bastion module is active. Also it should appear on TACNET for anybody to see because of its explosion on signature size due to the power generation of Bastion Module tl;dr Bastion module on Marauders Pros; Increase firepower capacity larger health pool Cons; Inmovable (liability for flux strike or minor orbital strike) Shown on map like a billboard ad.(meaning everybody can see it on TACNET) I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. When you see the word 'marauder', what do you think of? I think of pirates, who only defended their ship. They otherwise raided other ships and lands, and took what they wanted. That's offense with little defense. Marauder tanks should be offense, while Enforcer tanks should be defense. I'm not saying Marauders should be glass right out the gate, but they should focus on offense. They need to be better in all areas over their STD counterparts. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:29:00 - [10] - Quote The-Errorist wrote: I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. So there are 2 different types of Heavy HAVs? I thought there was HAVS and then Marauders. I do not remember seen an enforcer. My idea was to marry the concept of Maraudes EVE has with Dust Marauders are the Heavys of HAVs Amarr Victor

Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2465	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:30:00 - [11] - Quote And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:33:00 - [12] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion. Amarr Victor
Lazer Fo Cused Shining Flame Amarr Empire 218	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:36:00 - [13] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion. 1. Bastion module is useless in PVP 2. If your not moving you are dead
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2465	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:38:00 - [14] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: The-Errorist wrote: I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. So there are 2 different types of Heavy HAVs? I thought there was HAVS and then Marauders. I do not remember seen an enforcer. My idea was to marry the concept of Maraudes EVE has with Dust Marauders are the Heavys of HAVs You were probably away for all of Uprising 1.0 through the day before 1.7 dropped. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Spkr4theDead Red Star. EoN. 2465	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:41:00 - [15] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion. Oh yeah, can't be great offense against another tank, not allowed, that's all infantry's role because they must be able to do everything with such incredible proficiency that a railgun or missile tank is not needed. Stupid me, I thought tanks were supposed to be tanks. And how can a module make a ship unmovable in space? That literally makes no sense at all. You mean to tell me it fires retro thrusters/turns over to fire main propulsion to achieve 0 movement speed in all directions? There is no combat without movement. Helicopters don't stop moving to fire rockets. Aircraft don't stop to drop bombs. Tanks don't stop moving to fire their cannon. Infantry does stop to achieve the most steady platform for firing their weapon to increase accuracy as much as possible. I may be missing something, but I'm pretty sure that I didn't call for a tank nerf before Uprising 1.7. - Atiim
Vulpes Dolosus Molon Labe. General Tso's Alliance 2697	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:46:00 - [16] - Quote It's hard to compare vehicles to dropsuits, so rather, let;s compare vehicles to vehicles: Compare the ADS to a standard DS: Pros: Higher offensive power More Maneuverable Cons: Far less defensive Fewer slots for customizability/utility The pros definitely out weigh the cons, but without the cons, the ADS would be OP. Same should translate to the Marauder and every other T2 vehicle to be (re)introduced. Personally, I see two main possibilities: -High offenses, high defenses, but low mobility (Most likely since Marauders in Eve are battleships and even have a proprietary seizing mod) -High offenses, high mobility, but lower defenses (similar to the ADS basically) Dust is there! I was real! Dear diary, Rattati senpai noticed me today~
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:52:00 - [17] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion. 1. Bastion module is useless in PVP 2. If your not moving you are dead If you are talking about EVE combat, look this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk If Dust, as it has not been experimented yet, I cannot prove you wrong or give you a refutable argument. I can only pull the bullshit card. Amarr Victor
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:55:00 - [18] - Quote Spkr4theDead wrote: Isa Lucifer wrote: Spkr4theDead wrote: And no, a Marauder should have no drawbacks compared to a STD tank, until the siege module is activated. Then I'll accept a 50% reduction in movement speed. This isn't WWII when tanks had to move slowly or not at all to score a successful hit. This is 20,000 years in the future. The drawbacks are to add balance. It cannot be overpowered. The Bastion Module in EVE makes the ship unmovable. It should be the same, in my opinion. Oh yeah, can't be great offense against another tank, not allowed, that's all infantry's role because they must be able to do everything with such incredible proficiency that a railgun or missile tank is not needed. Stupid me, I thought tanks were supposed to be tanks. And how can a module make a ship unmovable in space? That literally makes no sense at all. You mean to tell me it fires retro thrusters/turns over to fire main propulsion to achieve 0 movement speed in all directions? There is no combat without movement. Helicopters don't stop moving to fire rockets. Aircraft don't stop to drop bombs. Tanks don't stop moving to fire their cannon. Infantry does stop to achieve the most steady platform for firing their weapon to increase accuracy as much as possible. Most of the times, tanks stop to fire their cannon. I did not understand your first paragraph, About how can a module make a ship unmovable in space, ask the EVE dev team that. It has worked for the Marauders in EVE very good. Please see the video to know what I am talking about. Amarr Victor
Isa Lucifer Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 133	Posted - 2014.12.11 19:56:00 - [19] - Quote Gota go to work. I will be back later. Amarr Victor
The-Errorist 920	Posted - 2014.12.11 20:17:00 - [20] - Quote Lazer Fo Cused wrote: ... 1. Bastion module is useless in PVP 2. If your not moving you are dead I agree Isa Lucifer wrote: The-Errorist wrote: I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. So there are 2 different types of Heavy HAVs? I thought there was HAVS and then Marauders. I do not remember seen an enforcer. My idea was to marry the concept of Maraudes EVE has with Dust Marauders are the Heavys of HAVs Enforcer tanks were the Falchion and I don't remember the other. Spkr4theDead wrote: The-Errorist wrote: ... I rather have increased firepower reserved for enforcers and defense reserved for marauders. When you see the word 'marauder', what do you think of? I think of pirates, who only defended their ship. They otherwise raided other ships and lands, and took what they wanted. That's offense with little defense. Marauder tanks should be offense, while Enforcer tanks should be defense. I'm not saying Marauders should be glass right out the gate, but they should focus on offense. They need to be better in all areas over their STD counterparts. My point was that there should be one that focuses on offense and another that focuses on defense, I don't really care that much on what it's named. MAG + Dust cb vet, an alt of Velvet Overkill & Agent Overkill. http://vimeo.com/93181621

True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15742	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:06:00 - [21] - Quote Personally depending on the module slot lay outs I cannot understand why we should not have mobility penalties. Tanks in Dust move incredibly fast, and accelerate incredibly fast for what they are. I feel since Marauders are in theory "Infantry Tanks" Heavily armed and armour tanks designed to move alongside infantry lines there is not reason we should note reduce top speed and acceleration. Moreover I prefered the only mobility values from pre 1.7. Much slower turning and acceleration was enjoyable. It meant your HAV had weight and inertia, your movements had to be thought out and planned so you didn't get caught far from cover or an escape route, and that so AV damage was more applicable to your tank. We already move at something like 70 kmph and while that's somewhat realistic I don't imagine most tanks actually move around at 70kmph all the time in combat zones. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15742	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:12:00 - [22] - Quote Isa Lucifer wrote: I will express my opinion of how Marauders should be here instead of creating another post Marauders should have a Bastion module like in EVE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jQENEsbdk The Bastion Module should only be accessible to Marauders. http://eve.battleclinic.com/item_database.php?id=i33400 The Bastion module, when activated, should make the Marauder inmovable for at LEAST 30 seconds. Now instead of improving firepower, the turret speed should be improved, as well as a healthy shield and armor resistance bonus as long as the bastion module is active. Also it should appear on TACNET for anybody to see because of its explosion on signature size due to the power generation of Bastion Module tl;dr Bastion module on Marauders Pros; Increase firepower capacity larger health pool Cons; Inmovable (liability for flux strike or minor orbital strike) Shown on map like a billboard ad.(meaning everybody can see it on TACNET) Wonderful idea mate. Bastion modules might one day appear in Dust. But right now they won't. Think of it this way Isa. Tiger Tanks - Marauder = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATyjeISvQPc Panzer III - Standard Tanks = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ojx9vuKYeI Look purely at mobility and inertia of the two. I assure you when you pilot the Tiger it feels much harder to turn and handles inclined very poorly indeed. *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3956	Posted - 2014.12.11 21:44:00 - [23] - Quote To put it simply, moving into a specialization should feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. In the case of Marauders those two steps forward could be higher base HP + defensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower mobility. In the case of Enforcers those two steps forward could be higher base speed + offensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower base HP. I think if you maintain this +2 & -1 Approach to specialty vehicle design, its far more likely to end up with a design that is both balanced as well as fun to use. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032
True Adamance Praetoriani Classiarii Templares Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris 15745	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:35:00 - [24] - Quote Pokey Dravon wrote: To put it simply, moving into a specialization should feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. In the case of Marauders those two steps forward could be higher base HP + defensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower mobility. In the case of Enforcers those two steps forward could be higher base speed + offensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower base HP. I think if you maintain this +2 & -1 Approach to specialty vehicle design, its far more likely to end up with a design that is both balanced as well as fun to use. Think of it more like this Mr Dravon 3 Tenets of Armoured Warfare can be defined as -Armour -Fire Power -Mobility Enforcer - Tank Destroyer - Fire Power (Primary) - Mobility (Secondary) Marauder - Infantry Tank - Armour (Primary) - Fire Power (Secondary) Black Ops/Logistics - Support Platform, eWAR Support - Mobility (Primary) - Armour (Secondary) *"He spoke, and we made it so all worlds were one, all peoples were one, all faiths, creeds, and nationalities were one.
Pokey Dravon OSG Planetary Operations Covert Intervention 3958	Posted - 2014.12.11 22:45:00 - [25] - Quote True Adamance wrote: Pokey Dravon wrote: To put it simply, moving into a specialization should feel like 2 steps forward, 1 step back. In the case of Marauders those two steps forward could be higher base HP + defensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower mobility. In the case of Enforcers those two steps forward could be higher base speed + offensive bonuses, and the step back would be lower base HP. I think if you maintain this +2 & -1 Approach to specialty vehicle design, its far more likely to end up with a design that is both balanced as well as fun to use. Think of it more like this Mr Dravon 3 Tenets of Armoured Warfare can be defined as -Armour -Fire Power -Mobility Enforcer - Tank Destroyer - Fire Power (Primary) - Mobility (Secondary) Marauder - Infantry Tank - Armour (Primary) - Fire Power (Secondary) Black Ops/Logistics - Support Platform, eWAR Support - Mobility (Primary) - Armour (Secondary) Hmmmmmmmmm that is one way to look at it, yes. Interesting. I will have to think more on that. "That little s**t Pokey..." --CCP Rattati, Biomassed Episode 032


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